Dealing with lambs and ewes

[herdcentral]

My lambs are nearly 10 days old and I decide that I had better band their little testicles. So I had to get them into a yard. I am not currently set up very well and am waiting on some portable yard pannels.

 

My ewes are not used to dogs as I got them when pregnant and have used my dog broke whethers for training. I decided to use my rising 2 year old BC as my young kelpie is a nice worker but is not good with sheep that aggrssively challenge her.

 

I sent my BC Drift on a big cast, something he does do well and he came in nice and wide behind the ewe lamb group and started to try and lift them towards me. Well they were not having any of it and charged him repeatedly. He held his ground and tried his best to move them but evetually I got behind them and I got them moving and got him in driving mode so I kept them moving and he kept flanking to either side to keep them together. Which was close to impossible with each ewe doing her own thing but we managed somehow.

 

Once I got them near my round yard I realised that it was going to be tricky getting them in because they were being so uncoperative and very flighty especially for a young dog, so I got him to hold them pressed in a corner of the paddock near the yard while I grabbed lambs who were being equally uncooperative.

 

We did one ewe at a time and it was quite a circus with each ewe charging for all she was worth. My dog was up for it and he did a good job and also lay down when I asked him too. Eventually I got each lamb and banded it. I went through the whole circus the next day again as being new to this I realised I need to protect them agaist tetanus and it gave me the opportunity to check if a very small lamb still had his testicles below the band.

 

Before the next vaccinating I want to build a better yard because my paddocks are so big.

 

How do experienced dogs deal with aggressive ewes and their lambs. These are pretty wild and had not been handled much, certainly not seen dogs.

 

Once they are ready I will put them in with my trained whethers and calm them down and get them used to it.

My dog is pretty strong and confident is defintely willing to work with them, but I wouldnt put my other young dog on them.

 

But before this should I keep doing short sessions with them and my young dog? to get them used to being worked without the drama?.

 

My young dog was actually quite good although with all the charging and butting going on he didnt always respond to my commands although I have to say he was pretty good in all the excitement and I could get him down.

 

I would prefer not to have to go through it all again.

[kajarrel]

At 10 days old the lambs will not move for a dog - your dog needs to move the mamas and the babies will follow. When they feel threatened, a good mother will often charge. To prevent this, more experienced dogs learn to stay far enough off the ewes, hold their ground and to be patient. There's a space where most ewes will move (on either side of this space they will either not move or charge) and the dog needs to learn where this is. This is also a situation where I help my dogs. If I have a straggler (a young lamb that isn't following the mama well - in this case it's the lamb, not the mama causing the problem), I'll pick it up and the mama will follow. Sometimes I'll help the dog drive the ewes. A really obstinate ewe may need a bite, but I only like to see this as an absolute last resort since, IMHO, the mama is really just doing her job.

 

If your sheep are not dog-trained, you're dealing with two issues and this will probably be better next year when the sheep are used to your dog. But remember that working is a partnership and sometimes you need to get in there and help your dog. This was a mistake I made early on when I had sheep.

 

Kim

[Smokjbc]

It sounds like your dog handled it well and with confidence and it's good you helped him when he was in trouble. I would advise banding earlier than ten days so that the lambs can be caught easily. Then, leave them alone for awhile, most ewes get will relax after the first month or two and be easier to move. I personally wouldn't work them that much until the lambs were a bit older if the ewes aren't dog broke.

 

If they need to be moved or doctored, then keep your dog at a distance - most ewes with lambs have a zone where they will move off the dog without feeling threatened. I try to avoid all out war with the ewes. I don't mind if my dogs defend themselves or stand up to an aggressive ewe, but the point is to try to move them without a showdown which means finding that spot where the ewes feel they have enough space to move. It sounds like your dog is confident to handle the showdowns but too much, too soon can wear that confidence down and create a bad habit in the ewe.

[kajarrel]

I was trying to add this and created a double post:

 

I try to do most procedures in the field and not move mamas with young lambs. Especially very early on (not at 10 days), with my flock of sheep, I have found this can cause mismothering. I also do not castrate my lambs . . . but this works for my market and my flock.

 

Kim

[Sue R]

Not having sheep (or having had sheep), I'm going to say "what they said" based on my experiences with cattle as new mothers.

 

Find the opportunities to dog-break your stock when there are no babies present, if at all possible. That certainly reduces the issues you are dealing with. Well broken mothers will teach their babies how to respond to a dog that is working correctly. When I can work mothers with new babies (usually just short moves), I find that while those babies are clueless at first, they follow their mothers (the dog is really working the mother), and become dog-broke themselves with minimal stress. Those become my best-broke young stock because they learned "at their mother's knee".

 

It is crucial that the dog read the stock and work at the right distance. Too far away, and the dog is no influence. Too close, and the mother will face the dog and fight. Just right, and the mother will feel safe and comfortable turning away from the dog and walking with her baby. A dog that reads its stock, keeps its distance, reduces pressure or increases pressure when needed, is a wonderful thing. It is also a dog that inspires a certain level of trust in the stock (you'll hear people say that the stock like their dog) so that the stock are comfortable working properly off the dog.

 

As said, after a year of good dog work, you should find this to go much better in the future!

[bcnewe2]

I have a dog who's specialty is moving lambs and mommas. He does allot of laying down taking pressure off, waiting for lambs to catch up to mommas. He doesn't "see" lambs until they are old enough to be dog broke. He only bites mommas if he has to.

A little grain in a can with you shaking it will encourage the mommas to keep moving if you don't have a super calm dog.

When my dog wasn't as experienced and I knew I'd be moving lambs, I've taken my dog in with me to the paddocks or stalls where we're lambing and have him lay around while I fiddle with chores. I don't have many sheep right now so each one has a relationship with the dogs. If the dog is hanging around quietly with the lambs the mom's get used to that dog and it makes it be easier.

And yep I agree there is a circle around the mommas that the dog can be right on the edge of and mommas don't get so nervous.

 

last resort is to pick up a lamb carry it low on my side, then let the momma follow it.

I was doing that last year with a ewe and less than day old lamb. Momma didn't know me or my dog, had never been where I was taking her and her lamb was black. Mick is black. We'd move 5 ft. then she'd get nervous, Mick would lie down quietly and momma would run over to see if Mick was the lamb. We'd go 5 ft forward and 3 ft back. I couldn't get the lamb to cry, she was quite content for me to carry her and must of had a full tummy. nothing i would do could make that lamb cry.

 

Took 1/2 hour to move across a Field that should of been 5 minutes. Mick never even batted an eye at momma or baby. When I got them to the smaller paddock I called Mick off and he stood there looking at momma for a few minutes, he ran over hit her on the nose then called off. It was like he was letting that momma know that she had tried his last nerve. I know he disobeyed me and didn't call off but he sure made me giggle.

 

If I band I try and do it at about 3 days old, much easier to handle and I think easier on the lambs too.

[Sue R]

I think Kristen makes an excellent point - when the stock are familiar with the dog (and not just being worked by the dog) and the dog is familiar with the stock (and not just working the stock), it can be very helpful. Animals are funny about "novelty" (or anything "new" to them) - they tend to be a combination of curious and fearful. By becoming allowing them the opportunity to become familiar, you remove both curiosity and fear of something "new".

[bcnewe2]

if your not sure if your dog has a relationship with you sheep, take him to somewhere he's not been and try to move lambs w/momma's. It can be quite a job.

If you are lucky enough to have one of those dogs whom sheep like, it makes everything easier. I love Mick for that, Dew...not so much but she's still learning. She'd just like to ignor lambs no matter what and sometimes you have to move lambs even if your dog doesn't want to! I do think it's something they are born with. A dog can learn it but being born with it makes it much easier!

 

eta:

oh yeah, meant to add, Mick doesn't always obey my commands when working lambs and momma's either. But if I watch, he's usually right, if not I can insist.

They know so much more than us!

[kajarrel]

They know so much more than us!

 

Well, yes and no. I think they do have an innate drive to balance/control sheep and acute sensitivy to pressure and nuances of sheep behavior, but I do not believe that they innately know how to apply pressure to get the job done in a variety of situations - this needs to be learned. Handlers, I believe, learn this over time too (albeit, at least in my case, a lot more slowly). So, as I've had sheep over the years, I can help a young dog learn. Once they've learned, then they are often right, but there are times where they don't understand my objectives and still "get it wrong." This is where that border collie compulsiveness comes into play when working.

 

Kim

[herdcentral]

Yes I wish now that I had worked the ewes with the dog way back. He is a young dog and he is a pushy dog and I have had to work hard with him on issues of space. Probably a lot to do also with my lack of experience combined with his over keeness. As he matures he is getting much better and I am also learning to read things better. He does seem to need a lot of help with pressure but we are getting there. He is great with his cast and comes in nice and wide but then he gets a bit to keen, possibly due to the training whethers being a bit heavy to move and he tends to want to work close.

 

One of the ewes is also very flighty, I would like to get rid of her becuase she has a very poor temperament and will spook at almost anything, which upsets the rest of the ewes. Her point of pressure seems to be wildly different from the rest of the sheep and she will run at the sight of anything that moves.

 

Over here most lambs if they are going to be castrated are done at about 4 weeks when the lambs come in for vaccinations, earmarking etc. The lamb numbers are usually in their thousands so everything is done at once. Most these days are sold as ram lambs I think.

 

I read that it is preferable for banding to be done earlier and by then my lmbs were 8-10 days old and I still have more to come which I am hoping are ewe lambs. So far 80% have been boys! no good when I am trying to build my flock and Wilti ewes are expensive. I am whethering my lambs at the moment because I want to add them to my whether flock that I use for year round training. Eventually I wont bother, when I have enough numbers. I will go earlier if I get more boys although I did find one of the smaller lambs quite hard to get both testicles into the scrotum, they kept slipping back up. Probably beginners fumbling!

 

Thanks for all your answers. I have a lot of work to do, me and my dog. He is my first sheepdog so things were never going to be straight forward, but I really rely on him to help out with the sheep.

[bcnewe2]

They know so much more than us!

 

 

 

Well, yes and no

 

Yes I understand what you mean but I know I couldn't have taught Mick what he does with the lambs and ewes. I am able to teach his sister as I've grown as a handler over the years and with lots of dogs that I've worked and trained with. Mick is one dog, he had me as a bumbling green trainer when he started. It was him that brought me so far. We've come a long way and he still loves me. I am grateful for that and very grateful for how he taught me about sheep seen through his eyes.

Each dog has a lifetime of learning to teach or show us. All with differences that bring us along. But there are some dogs and some handlers that teach us more than others.

 

I understand your need to band a bit later but when I've done it later it seems like the lambs suffer a bit more or at least are able to show it more.

Nothing worse than seeing that first 10 minutes of a ram lamb who's just been banded, unless it's like some lucky few, that don't seem bothered at all, maybe just being stoic?

 

 

Pushy dogs on new moms and lambs can be tricky. I hope Drift has that "kind" gene to lambs. It's so much easier if the mommas know the dog isn't going to "eat" her lambs!

[herdcentral]

Yes I understand what you mean but I know I couldn't have taught Mick what he does with the lambs and ewes. I am able to teach his sister as I've grown as a handler over the years and with lots of dogs that I've worked and trained with. Mick is one dog, he had me as a bumbling green trainer when he started. It was him that brought me so far. We've come a long way and he still loves me. I am grateful for that and very grateful for how he taught me about sheep seen through his eyes.

Each dog has a lifetime of learning to teach or show us. All with differences that bring us along. But there are some dogs and some handlers that teach us more than others.

 

I understand your need to band a bit later but when I've done it later it seems like the lambs suffer a bit more or at least are able to show it more.

Nothing worse than seeing that first 10 minutes of a ram lamb who's just been banded, unless it's like some lucky few, that don't seem bothered at all, maybe just being stoic?

 

 

Pushy dogs on new moms and lambs can be tricky. I hope Drift has that "kind" gene to lambs. It's so much easier if the mommas know the dog isn't going to "eat" her lambs!

 

 

I have the luxury of being able to do the ram lambs early, they seemed fine after I banded them and went straight to the milk bar and I saw them playing awhile later.

 

Drift is very kind to lambs, in fact he doesnt even notice they exist in the paddock and focuses on the ewes. He does let my reject lamb butt his boy parts in search of milk without any trace of malice.

 

I am teaching him to keep off his sheep and I think it will be awhile before he learns about the right pressure to apply and we are currenly limited by my sheep. I am trying to teach him but not sure it comes particularly naturally. He is a young man on a mission, but he is starting to get it.