Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Liz P]

Well, I meant dismissing a difficulty as being "not a training issue" without examining in depth it outside the context of that one particular sport.

 

I think you are bringing up an excellent point, one that I have considered myself. If these dogs really have a problem that is not training related, one would think differences would be noted during other activities.

[Root Beer]

Or maybe I get fired up at "labels". Are they really disabled? Maybe there's a way for them to suceed no one's thought of yet!

 

I think that is a big part of why they are studying the issue in depth. Is this a disability? Can it be overcome in some way nobody has thought of yet? What can handlers of these dogs do to help them continue to enjoy this sport?

 

One thing that Linda Mecklenburg has cautioned about very strongly on the list that I read is labeling every dog that comes up with a jumping problem as a dog with ETS. In fact, it seemed to be something she was adamantly against.

 

I'm not really a fan of "labels" myself, yet they are useful when they really fit. Not exactly the same, but I get pretty fired up when people imply that my dog's noise phobia is a figment of my imagination and that if I would just believe that he isn't noise phobic, he wouldn't be. Or that I just don't throw big enough "parties" for him when he starts to become anxious. Etc. etc. etc. I appreciate that studies are being done to try to determine the cause, and I especially appreciate those who understand that noise phobia is not something that my dog or I have chosen and I'm never going to be able to train it away, hope it away, handle it away, "party" it away, or imagine it away.

 

I think that Agility competitors with dogs who may have ETS probably experience the same thing. They probably hear the mantras over and over - "it's a training issue", "it's a structure issue", "it's a focus issue", "it's a handling issue", "it's a relationship issue". And sure, sometimes it is one or more of those things. But sometimes it's not. And in those cases this "label" can help both handler and instructor stop playing that particular blame game and get on with trying to do something to help the dog succeed at the game.

 

ETS is not a problem that I've ever experienced firsthand and, honestly, I seriously hope I never do.

[rushdoggie]

Well, I meant dismissing a difficulty as being "not a training issue" without examining in depth it outside the context of that one particular sport.

 

Well, maybe because it only comes up in the context of dog sports that involve jumping? Shes not defining the dogs as being "bad" but saying some dogs have what appears to be a real issue judging jump take offs that is not an issue of structure or training (and again, if you read the available lit you will see that there is a certain subset of dogs who have a specific behavior that often appears after 3-4 years of great jumping even with great foundation skills and who cannot be diagnosed with any known vision issue).

 

Are they really disabled? Maybe there's a way for them to succeed no one's thought of yet!

 

Projecting much? Awesome. :eyeroll:

 

Ummm, I think the only one defining them as "disabled" is you?

 

I guess what I don't understand is if this happens across a number of breeds, why study just the genetics of the border collie? Is it because a majority of agility dogs are border collies? Or that they already have so much DNA on hand from border collies for the other studies being done, so easier just to collect more from the same breed (don't want to say population, because the populations are different).

 

I don't know for sure, but I think I remember reading it seemed to be more prevalent in Border Collies and Shelties, so that may be the issue.

[Liz P]

Well, maybe because it only comes up in the context of dog sports that involve jumping?

 

Yes, but if the dogs live in the house with their owners and are pets, you would think they would notice changes or abnormalities. Maybe they suddenly start having trouble jumping into the car or onto the couch.

 

I had a dog whose vision declined as he got older. I used to run him as my lead dog on my sled team. He became hesitant and I had to replace him with another leader. In the past he always kept the line tight, but as his vision got worse he let it go slack more and more often and seemed to lose his confidence. At home I noticed that his bug hunting and ball catching skills declined.

 

I own a dog with an old spinal cord injury. People don't notice a problem when they see him running around unless I point it out. When he is really tired he can sometimes struggle to stand up after he has been sleeping. This problem is MUCH worse on certain surfaces, hinting at a neurological rather than orthopedic problem.

 

One of my dogs has declining hearing. I first noticed after a command given from about 300 yards away was ignored. At first I thought the dog was in a "dead spot" in the field, so I ignored the incident. Then I realized there were other changes I was noticing between work, like very deep sleep that wasn't interrupted by sounds that would wake most dogs.

[rushdoggie]

Yes, but if the dogs live in the house with their owners and are pets, you would think they would notice changes or abnormalities. Maybe they suddenly start having trouble jumping into the car or onto the couch.

 

Could be, and I don't know but I assume that those things are taken into consideration. As Root Beer said, LM has spent a lot of time evaluating dogs who have this characteristic jumping issue, perhaps in the literature out there there's more information.

[Root Beer]

Yes, but if the dogs live in the house with their owners and are pets, you would think they would notice changes or abnormalities. Maybe they suddenly start having trouble jumping into the car or onto the couch.

 

Perhaps in some cases it does. It may be that those changes are very subtle in everyday life and they are not noticed by the owner. If the dog is running full out to jump into the car and miscaluclates the final stride and lands half an inch further into the car, it is a lot less likely to be noticed than it would be on an Agility course where the bars go down. Yet, it may be that the effects of ETS are noticed by the owner in some of these ways in everyday life.

 

I don't believe that the definition of ETS excludes the possibility that the dog is affected in everyday life, nor that this is exclusively an Agility problem, just that the jumping issue does not have a known physical or training cause. So, poor structure, effects of injury, etc., have been explored and ruled out. But it certainly is possible that whatever causes ETS could affect the dog in some other ways in other areas of life, whether those affects are typically noticed by the owner or not.

 

As Rushdoggie said, there is a lot more information in the literature.

[Journey]

I don't think there is any way possible to rule out training or poor structure. This is a man made sport and strange that this issue only shows up in one area. No matter how much you re-train the fact is a handler has been building for speed all along. You can't change atmosphere, once the issue shows up, all the re-training in the world won't stop a default behavior 100% of the time. I see a big conflict - speed vs controlled jumping. I " may" concede to the ability of sight, but like what is being called BCC I see it as primarily human induced. And quite frankly I don't see where either ETS or BCC is life threatening, career ending yes (which I suppose is life threatening to some handlers).

[Denise Wall]

If your dog goes to water after exercise and drowns, it's certainly life threatening. That happened to quite a few water retrieving labs who had the similar disease, EIC. Sometimes it happened in the first episode so the handler would have no idea to be careful. It's quite possible BCC dogs could be pressed to death from inattention to the problem while working.

 

I own a dog with BCC and have seen many others over the years. It can definitely be a health risk in more situations than a dog's "career." It in no way compares to jumping too soon over an agility jump, if that's what ETS really is. ETS does not sound like a clinically significant problem IMO, while BCC is.

[Journey]

Ok, so has BCC been determined? If so, what exactly is it and is it genetic/hereditary? A form of overheating or what? Physiological? Like Becca, I am seeing too much labeled. There are breeder/millers sites out there now saying "BCC" normal/clear.

 

The last I read on BCC was that it was similar to EIC but not. Is there new data on BCC?

[MrSnappy]

I don't think there is any way possible to rule out training or poor structure. This is a man made sport and strange that this issue only shows up in one area.

 

So is sheepherding, insomuch as dogs were fashioned to perform it and we humans made up the rules. Dogs don't pen sheep and move them through chutes and then retire from the field and chain themselves up to the camper van of their own volition, do they?

 

No matter how much you re-train the fact is a handler has been building for speed all along. You can't change atmosphere, once the issue shows up, all the re-training in the world won't stop a default behavior 100% of the time. I see a big conflict - speed vs controlled jumping.

 

I don't really see the conflict, but maybe that's because I play the sport. My dogs run fast and they don't take bars down. The dog who run fast (or slow - they aren't all speed demons) and take the bars down hurt themselves, and I can't see them defaulting to a behaviour where they hurt themselves on a course repeatedly. It would make a lot more sense for the dog to take the jumps clean, so you have to wonder why they can't seem to do it.

 

I really don't have an opinion on "ETS" and I'm not sure I can understand how it's an inherited problem unless there is an underlying undiscovered physical problem that is contributing to it / causing it, but I can say that I know a handful of dogs who can't seem to take their jumps clean. They are all shelties though. But they faceplant, crash through standards and generally seem to be unable to gauge where to take off correctly, which I think is a very strange thing. They are owned by handlers who have successfully trained and run several dogs without these issues. It doesn't seem to be a training issue.

 

I " may" concede to the ability of sight, but like what is being called BCC I see it as primarily human induced. And quite frankly I don't see where either ETS or BCC is life threatening, career ending yes (which I suppose is life threatening to some handlers).

 

I agree - this alleged "ETS" can't be a life threatening problem, although again, if there is an underlying physical problem that contributes to it, maybe it's a serious problem. I would say that CHD is not life threatening either, but having had a dog with bad hips, I'd much rather have one that didn't, and judging from the amount of discomfort the dog was in much of the time, I think he'd have rather not had it too. I would guess blindness isn't life threatening either, but isn't it nice that people test for CEA or PRA and try not to breed blind dogs? As for BCC, as I have a dog who suffers from this, and can't get up when she collapses, I think it very well could be life threatening.

 

A friend of mine has a border collie who started dropping jumps with her hind end. Rather than assume it was a training issue, she had the dog checked out, and had an MRI done. I forget what the problem is called, but it's a very real physical issue, some rare genetic thing, and has something do with fusing at the base of the spine (just above the tail). Working bred dog, incidentally, though that's neither here nor there. But it seems to me that this is a good example of why explaining everything away as a training issue is premature.

 

Anyway, what interests me most about this whole alleged "ETS" is whether they will find an underlying cause that is identifiable - I watched the videos that accompanied the article, and what I (a total lay person) noticed is that all the border collies who have this so-called syndrome drop their heads down and forward (but not their shoulders) when preparing to take off at a jump. They remind me of the stereotypical schoolmarm looking down her nose over her glasses. Rather than driving forward with their topline low, they seem to remain upright and drop their heads down. That makes me wonder if it is a vision problem of some kind, or possibly something spinal. But I didn't notice anything like that in the shelties or other dogs they showcased, so maybe it's my imagination. I imagine Dr. M has much better observations.

 

RDM

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I still really don't understand why they'd launch something like this without comparing notes with the largest registry of Border Collies on the continent, or with the CBCA (Canadians). If it's a concern about vision, the ABCA would be happy to help, I'm sure. If they want just DNA, they could get participants at trials anywhere across the country - they'd just need a volunteer and some q-tips. (LOL! I know they are not q-tips)

 

Root Beer, I have poor vision, spotty short term memory, and really bad hand/eye coordination. And my only access to the Internet is this four year old IPhone.

 

I apologize for not checking out those resources you keep referencing, but surfing around to different resources is really hard, plus if I read them I'd probably not remember much of what I read.

 

I read the public notice, a couple of links from there, and now I'm here, because I'm interested in the implications for Norder collies not necessarily the wider world of agility.

[Pearse]

Ok, so has BCC been determined? If so, what exactly is it and is it genetic/hereditary? A form of overheating or what? Physiological? Like Becca, I am seeing too much labeled. There are breeder/millers sites out there now saying "BCC" normal/clear.

 

The last I read on BCC was that it was similar to EIC but not. Is there new data on BCC?

 

As far as I know, neither the clinical syndrome nor the genetic lesion (if there is one) has been fully determined. It certainly seems like a real condition. Dogs show neurological signs after moderate exercise even in mild temperatures. They lose some hind end control and stagger. After a moderate period of rest, they seem to recover just fine.

 

Dr. Susan Taylor in Saskatoon is working on defining the clinical side of things in Border Collies. Dr. Jim Mickelson in Minnesota is working on looking for an underlying genetic cause. Neither has published any results yet.

 

They do know that the genetic mutation that causes EIC in Labrador Retrievers is not the same mutation that causes EIC in Border Collies.

 

Pearse

[Pearse]

Also, just because something is not a training issue does not mean that it is a genetic disease. It could just be normal genetic variation.

 

For example, there are many people who can hit a 3-point jump shot 7/10 times or better. I am not one of them. Does my "Three Point Deficiency Syndrome" mean that I have a genetic disease or simply that in the genetic lottery I didn't get the combination of genes that an NBA star did?

 

You could say the same for anything else. Some people are musically gifted, some are artists, some can run the 100m in under 10 seconds. Others can't. The ones that can't don't have a genetic defect.

 

So how about; dogs that consistently take down bars when jumping in agility are simply not suited to be agility athletes. They don't have the athletic gifts necessary to do so.

 

We recognize this in working dogs too. One can breed two good working dogs and get offspring that are just not that talented. Usually, you'll get all the dogs in the litter that will work to some degree, but maybe only a portion that have enough talent to be a dog you could trial with. That's just genetic variation when you are dealing with multi-genic traits, perhaps with multiple alleles for given genes.

 

It's useless to speculate that it's due to depth perception or anything else. Think about how many body systems go into taking a command to jump over an obstacle: identifying the obstacle, judging the height, judging the distance, judging the speed, telling the muscles to perform the sequence necessary for the jump, tucking up the front legs, clearing the jump while processing the information for proceeding the next obstacle - all in about 1/10th of a second.

 

So, there may be populations of dogs who can't do agility. Don't do agility with them.

[Root Beer]

And quite frankly I don't see where either ETS or BCC is life threatening, career ending yes (which I suppose is life threatening to some handlers).

 

No, ETS, is not likely to be life threatening.

 

But there are people who consider things to be worthy of study even if those things are not life threatening. People who play Agility invest years of time, money, and emotional capital into training and preparing their dogs for competition. Of course, every dog is a gamble, but there are also things that can be considered when selecting the dog that will give one a better chance of choosing a dog who is suited to play the game.

 

Knowing whether or not there is a genetic tendency for ETS provides people who are going to make that investment into an Agility dog one more piece of information that they can factor into the selection process for future dogs (regardless of the source of the dogs). Even though the dog's life does not depend on jumping ability, there are still those to whom this is important enough to consider.

[Root Beer]

So how about; dogs that consistently take down bars when jumping in agility are simply not suited to be agility athletes. They don't have the athletic gifts necessary to do so.

 

The problem with this is that most of the dogs that are consider to have ETS started out as solid jumpers. Sure, if one starts out with a dog and the dog struggles with jumping and shows little talent as a jumper, then that's one thing. It is quite another if the dog has been jumping well for years and all of a sudden something like this becomes an ongoing issue, and for no discernible physical, training, or handling reason.

 

These are not dogs that simply lack jumping talent.

 

It's useless to speculate that it's due to depth perception or anything else. Think about how many body systems go into taking a command to jump over an obstacle: identifying the obstacle, judging the height, judging the distance, judging the speed, telling the muscles to perform the sequence necessary for the jump, tucking up the front legs, clearing the jump while processing the information for proceeding the next obstacle - all in about 1/10th of a second.

 

Useless to you, perhaps. To those who have made the investment in these dogs and want to pursue the sport, it is extremely useful.

 

I am positive that all of the factors that you have listed above, and more, have been studied in great depth by Linda Mecklenburg and others who are studying this issue. Some of them were addressed in the Clean Run article.

 

If a determination could be made that this is a depth perception issue, ways to help the dogs overcome the issue could very well be developed. That would be useful to those who have dogs who struggle with the issue.

 

So, there may be populations of dogs who can't do agility. Don't do agility with them.

 

As someone who doesn't play the game, that's easy enough to say. I can tell you as someone who does that it's not usually desirable, or practical, to simply not do Agility with a dog who has an issue such as this. Once you invest time, money, training, and emotional capital into a dog and you see big potential, the experience of having that derailed by an issue that you have no control over is probably quite different from what you would expect. Believe me, it's not so simple as just not doing it.

 

You would probably think I'm crazy for going the lengths that I go to do Agility with my noise phobic dog. You would probably think the "payoff" isn't worth what I put into it. But I know firsthand that it's been worth all that and more. He doesn't have the "big" titles. We don't always go out and have a great time. You would probably think it would make more sense to leave him home and take another dog, but if you knew him, you would know different.

 

I completely understand why there are efforts to study ETS and to try to find answers that can help dogs overcome it. I get why they don't just quit.

[jdarling]

Root Beer,

 

Let's say that everything else is ruled out, and along comes a DNA test for ETS that will show with certainty whether or not a dog has it. Should breeders breed against it? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

Jodi

[Root Beer]

I still really don't understand why they'd launch something like this without comparing notes with the largest registry of Border Collies on the continent, or with the CBCA (Canadians). If it's a concern about vision, the ABCA would be happy to help, I'm sure. If they want just DNA, they could get participants at trials anywhere across the country - they'd just need a volunteer and some q-tips. (LOL! I know they are not q-tips)

 

How do you know they didn't contact any of the registries? They seem to be pretty certain that depth perception cannot be tested in a dog at this time. It seems to me that determination would have been made by contacting those who test vision in dogs to see if that were possible and/or being done.

 

Root Beer, I have poor vision, spotty short term memory, and really bad hand/eye coordination. And my only access to the Internet is this four year old IPhone.

 

I apologize for not checking out those resources you keep referencing, but surfing around to different resources is really hard, plus if I read them I'd probably not remember much of what I read.

 

That's completely understandable. My point isn't that I think that you should read everything out there about this, but that there is a great deal of information about this that those who have not explored those resources are not going to be aware of. A lot of the questions that you have posed in this thread have been considered at length and addressed by Linda Mecklenburg.

[Root Beer]

Root Beer,

 

Let's say that everything else is ruled out, and along comes a DNA test for ETS that will show with certainty whether or not a dog has it. Should breeders breed against it? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

Jodi

 

Which breeders?

 

Working breeders who are breeding Border Collies for stockwork?

 

Backyard breeders who are trying to breed nice pet Border Collies?

 

Breeders who are breeding Border Collies to sell to people who are planning to train them for Agility? (aka: sport breeders)

 

Conformation breeders?

 

Other?

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, if I have a working dog who suddenly starts doing things out of character (while working), the first thing I look for is a physical reason (and I almost always recommend to other that they do the same). If you can rule out physical issues, then consider if it's a training issue. This was brought home to me some time ago when adult onset deafness was gaining awareness. trained dogs seemed to be blowing off their handlers and often people approached the problem as a training/obedience issue only to find out that it was a physical problem.

 

I would wonder about overtraining though, but assume that has been ruled out as well.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

If a determination could be made that this is a depth perception issue, ways to help the dogs overcome the issue could very well be developed. That would be useful to those who have dogs who struggle with the issue.

 

When I was in college long ago, researchers came to the campus offering to pay undergrad volunteers $1.00 a day to wear an eye patch for several weeks, and then have their depth perception tested. In order to be hired for this profitable gig, you had to take the depth perception test first, as a baseline. The test involved an array of many black threads hung vertical and taut, each at a different distance from the seated subject, who was supposed to answer "Which is closer, A or B?" type questions. When I took the test, I was totally stymied -- there were no clues at all by which I could determine the relative nearness or farness of the threads. They all looked the same to me. I was excused with thanks and reassurances that my utter lack of depth perception would not keep me from leading a normal life.

 

In sheepdog training and trialing, deficiencies in depth perception are an enormous handicap to a handler. It's a handicap I have not been able to mitigate, let alone overcome, despite considerable research, effort and motivation. I am very interested in why you think ways to overcome a depth perception issue in dogs could be developed, once it was recognized as such.

 

So, there may be populations of dogs who can't do agility. Don't do agility with them.

As someone who doesn't play the game, that's easy enough to say. I can tell you as someone who does that it's not usually desirable, or practical, to simply not do Agility with a dog who has an issue such as this. Once you invest time, money, training, and emotional capital into a dog and you see big potential, the experience of having that derailed by an issue that you have no control over is probably quite different from what you would expect. Believe me, it's not so simple as just not doing it.

 

Do you think Agility is the only activity in which a dog person might have the experience of having an investment of time, money, training, and emotional capital derailed by an issue that s/he has no control over? Believe me, you don't have to do Agility to have met with this experience, and to understand its impact and implications.

 

What Pearse says makes perfect sense to me, whereas "No, it can't be rally, it can't be freestyle, it can't be X or Y or Z -- it MUST be Agility" makes no sense to me at all.

 

But then, I have suffered all my life with Clumsiness Syndrome, and never even thought of looking to genetic research for The Answer.

[Journey]

RB, let's imagine the folks in the know see my dog jumping, omg she has ETS. Now, let's have one of them or any JQP, run her (we don't do agility so it will never happen). Now the ETS, is gone. Is it? Why? Has this research been done? Have they done blind studies? You say training has been ruled out, how? What about handler errors? Could they be the key to the cause of ETS? Incorrect handling of a correction?

 

Pearses' theory makes the most sense.

 

In one of the articles they are advocating removal from the gene pool, LM's blog I think. If there is a dna marker what course should all breeders take and why?

[jdarling]

Which breeders?

 

Border Collie breeders.

[Root Beer]

Border Collie breeders.

 

Sorry, that's too general. I'm happy to answer the question, but I need to know the exact market that the breeders in question would be selling to. My answer would differ depending on that information.

[Root Beer]

RB, let's imagine the folks in the know see my dog jumping, omg she has ETS. Now, let's have one of them or any JQP, run her (we don't do agility so it will never happen). Now the ETS, is gone. Is it? Why? Has this research been done? Have they done blind studies? You say training has been ruled out, how? What about handler errors? Could they be the key to the cause of ETS? Incorrect handling of a correction?

 

Seriously? You don't think these dogs have been run by different handlers? I wasn't even involved with the research and I am pretty sure that is one of the first things that would have been done, maybe after some checking for physical problems.

 

If you really would like the answer to your questions, the person to contact is Linda Mecklenburg. She is the person who has done this work.

 

Pearses' theory makes the most sense.

 

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, of course. Personally, I consider the opinion of someone who has worked with hundreds of Agility dogs and handlers, and has actually done the research on the condition, has a track record of resolving actual jump training issues through training, and has experience seeing the difference firsthand more credible than that of someone who isn't even involved with Agility.

 

 

In one of the articles they are advocating removal from the gene pool, LM's blog I think. If there is a dna marker what course should all breeders take and why?

 

Another good question to ask those who are doing the actual research.

[juliepoudrier]

Since it's been mentioned, I do wonder if the affected dogs can, say, catch balls thrown at them? Or similar? If it were strictly a vision (even just depth perception), wouldn't the dogs show evidence elsewhere than just in jumping?

 

And if not, then could removing carriers of a gene for ETS (assuming one is identified) have unintended consequences?

 

Compared to deafness, epilepsy, or BCC, which are indeed life- or work-threatening to greater or lesser degrees, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the urgency of finding a gene for ETS. And I do wonder if the advocated approach for dealing with it (removing all dogs from the gene pool) is a wise decision if one doesn't know how the identified gene might interact with other genes. At least with issues like CEA and early onset deafness (those that aren't in and of themselves deadly) the approach has been to manage the genes within the population, not remove them entirely. Why wouldn't the sports people take the same approach?

 

And as someone who as trained more than a few dogs for stockwork I do get the heartbreak that goes with investing time, money, and emotion into an animal only to have it all go to hell when the pressure is really on.

 

J.