Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Root Beer]

Sure, I get this. My questions have been more about why or whether the breed matters in the outcome of agility than about how people would respond to being told their dog isn't a border collie when they believe it is.

 

Although there are none here, this might actually be a good question to explore among the "Anything But a Border Collie" folks. What is it, as they see it from the outside, that gives Border Collies an advantage over the dogs that they have.

 

Comparing to my Lab Mutt, Border Collies generally run more efficiently. They have more natural drive. They have more desire to get to the equipment and get the job done. They aren't nearly as interested in the ground as she can be. They tend to be more focused. And they are fast.

 

On the same course, Dean can make mistakes for which I have to set him up and get him back on track for, and he will still run the course considerably faster than she does.

 

It's not just speed, though. Border Collies have an efficiency about the way that they run. They don't waste height or strides, and they tend to perceive the best path from Point A to Point B without half trying.

 

Granted, those are all generalities. Of course, there will be variations among individual dogs and some of the Border Collies I've seen couldn't Q to save their lives because they were off taking the wrong things constantly! But I have had the experience of looking in at the Border Collies as I run a non-Border Collie (yes, I consider her a non-Border Collie even though she is half Border Collie), and generally that's what I see as far as general advantages.

 

And I've seen some people do some nice runs with Aussies and Labs and Shelties and mutts of all kind. But I don't wish I had one of those when I see them run!!

[abcollie]

For an example ...

 

Beta fish (Siamese fighting fish) --- someone gets one and LOVES them but they just don't like all that fighting SO start breeding for non aggressive Siamese fighting fish ... what would you end up with??? A fighting fish that won't fight (just an example as I know nothing of fish :@) so WHY would you keep calling it a fighting fish??? That's why we say a Border Collie IS a Border Collie BECAUSE he works livestock. If you breed for passive fighting fish . you're breeding fish NOT Siamese fighting fish.

 

I would find it odd that "this" would be genetic IF they jumped correctly and then "all the sudden" started missing jumps. I wouldn't think genetics would "kick in" after a certain number of jumps. If "they" are saying it's a genetic "eye" problem that developed with age - Wouldn't that be a medical issue that could be proved with physical exams?

 

As a disclaimer... I know nothing of agility (never even seen it).

[Shetlander]

They're fine dogs -- just not border collies. Why is it so terrible to say that?

 

Because they don't share your belief about what "makes" a Border Collie, so your comment would be seen as odd, silly or even insulting.

 

The odd thing here is that I think the agility people are more hung up on the breed name than the working people are

.

 

Only when you tell them their dogs aren not Border Collies. Otherwise the ones I know are fine thinking of working, conformation, sports and backyard bred as all Border Collies. Different types but not different breeds.

 

But it seems folks in the agility world are very insulted and offended when someone tells them their dog isn't a border collie because it wasn't bred to the working standard.

 

Because your standard is not their standard. Your belief is not their belief. Your assertion makes no sense to them.

[Root Beer]

That's why we say a Border Collie IS a Border Collie BECAUSE he works livestock.

 

By that logic, any puppies of working Border Collies who go to pet or sport homes or even wash out as working dogs, need to be classified as "non-Border Collies". Perhaps fine dogs, but not Border Collies.

 

Otherwise, that classification does not hold up.

[Rave]

By that logic, any puppies of working Border Collies who go to pet or sport homes or even wash out as working dogs, need to be classified as "non-Border Collies". Perhaps fine dogs, but not Border Collies.

 

Otherwise, that classification does not hold up.

 

Don't forget the dogs who aren't working yet or are too old to work. What about goose dogs, are they "Border Collies"?

[Pippin's person]

I'm starting to think that the real mismatch in these discussions is not in terms of philosophy really, but in terms of thinking about populations/breeding practices vs individual dogs.

[Denise Wall]

I'm starting to think that the real mismatch in these discussion is not in terms of philosophy really, but in terms of thinking about populations/breeding practices vs individual dogs.

 

It always seems to happen like this.

[Debbie Meier]

By that logic, any puppies of working Border Collies who go to pet or sport homes or even wash out as working dogs, need to be classified as "non-Border Collies". Perhaps fine dogs, but not Border Collies.

 

 

 

Chiming in here, been reading and reading and reading.

 

IMO, no, they would be border collies. It's the next generation and beyond that is in question depending on what selection criteria was utilized when the mating was done. I'm one that would be for deregistration or suspended registration of dogs that come from unproven parentage from a stock work standpoint.

 

We deregister* our own washouts and have also deregistered dogs that have come through our hands that we felt were not worthy. * for lack of a better term..Papers held until proof of spay/neuter.

[abcollie]

By that logic, any puppies of working Border Collies who go to pet or sport homes or even wash out as working dogs, need to be classified as "non-Border Collies". Perhaps fine dogs, but not Border Collies.

 

Otherwise, that classification does not hold up.

 

IF they were BRED to be Fighting fish ... they are ... if they are bred to be passive (or agility) "fighting" fish they're NOT. It's NOT a hard concept. Border Collies standard IS WORK if you alter it (for ANY reason ... color, height, weight, blaze width OR agility) it stops being WHAT it was and starts "morphing" into something totally different.

 

I didn't say they weren't dogs (they have 4 legs, etc) just like the fish ARE fish BUT they aren't fighting fish anymore.

 

Again WHAT was the breed originally bred for? If you want to breed for something totally different ... that's everyone's choice but don't PRETEND it's something it's not bred for.

[Root Beer]

I'm starting to think that the real mismatch in these discussions is not in terms of philosophy really, but in terms of thinking about populations/breeding practices vs individual dogs.

 

I think this makes sense if you think about it. You were asking people involved with the sport of Agility to share the mindset of those involved with Agility on what makes the Border Collie a uniquely good Agility dog, and why the fact that our dogs are Border Collies matters.

 

That is not an abstract concept to those of us who are involved with Agility with Border Collies. We are going to draw off of our own experiences to answer those questions and our experiences with our individual dogs, and perhaps our own experiences in the Agility world in general. To us those aren't really philosophical questions, they are practical questions.

[Denise Wall]

I'm starting to think that the real mismatch in these discussions is not in terms of philosophy really, but in terms of thinking about populations/breeding practices vs individual dogs.

 

Further, because I think this is the heart of the matter. Have you (the general you) not noticed how working people on this board generally embrace rescue dogs and their owners, or dogs from puppy mills once the people have them and nothing can be done about it? What's done is done and people want the best for that individual. Ahead of time, promoting and supporting *breeding* other than for what the breed was meant to be is where the problem comes in for most of us.

[Root Beer]

IF they were BRED to be Fighting fish ... they are ... if they are bred to be passive (or agility) "fighting" fish they're NOT. It's NOT a hard concept.

 

Actually, my take on it is different from yours. If the parents were Fighting Fish (I'm using that as "breed name"), even if the offspring are passive, I would still classify them as Fighting Fish. And if you bred two passive Fighting Fish, you would still get Fighting Fish. Perhaps they would be passive, or some of the fight might show up in some of them. Yes, a quality is missing that should be present in Fighting Fish in the passive ones. But they do not just become something else because they are missing that quality, even though that is part of the name. Just as stockwork "washouts" are still Border Collies even though they don't do what was intended in their breeding. The passive Fighting Fish probably wouldn't last long among their own kind, but that's beside the point.

 

Think of Labrador Retrievers, for instance. Few of them do what they were bred to do originally. Do you personally call them something else because of that? Labrador Couch Potatoes, perhaps? Or German Shepherds. Do you call them something like German Stare Machines? In that context, the Fighting Fish that does not fight isn't really that strange of a concept. Yes, I would still consider it to be the same kind of fish as it's parents, or grandparents, etc.

 

Let me be clear - I am not advocating the breeding of Border Collies for purposes other than stockwork. Nor the breeding of passive Fighting Fish. Nor the breeding of Couch Potatoes or Stare Machines of any kind.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks, Denise! You stated my feelings perfectly! I don't have any problem with people participating in any of the dog sports (agility, obedience, flyball, frisbee, etc.) with their Border Collies. For me, the problem arises when people breed Border Collies for these activities.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Pippin's person]

I think this makes sense if you think about it. You were asking people involved with the sport of Agility to share the mindset of those involved with Agility on what makes the Border Collie a uniquely good Agility dog, and why the fact that our dogs are Border Collies matters.

 

That is not an abstract concept to those of us who are involved with Agility with Border Collies. We are going to draw off of our own experiences to answer those questions and our experiences with our individual dogs, and perhaps our own experiences in the Agility world in general. To us those aren't really philosophical questions, they are practical questions.

 

But issues tied to breeding/breeds are also specifically practical rather than (purely) philosophical/abstract. But they are issues that can only be worked out in terms of observing trends in a given population. If the discussion always reverts to individual experiences with individual dogs, the trends in the population aren't visible.

[abcollie]

 

Let me be clear - I am not advocating the breeding of Border Collies for purposes other than stockwork. Nor the breeding of passive Fighting Fish. Nor the breeding of Couch Potatoes or Stare Machines of any kind.

 

I understand you're not advocating the breeding but if people on THIS board don't understand how delicate it is to breed a great working dog WHO will???

 

A dog that works is different that a quality working dog. To dilute it with ANYTHING runs the risk of loosing this "breed" (that means even to Agility people. Why do you think they WANTED Border Collies? Why not go for a German Shepherd that can't even walk much less jump (and that's what changing a breeding standards does). They wanted the Border Collie because they have been bred for the RIGHT reasons ... not a whim. Agility is NOT the right reason --- doing agility is fun ... GREAT! Breeding Border Collies for agility is altering the breed (even if "they" choose not to acknowledge it). They WILL end up with a totally different dog (why does that not matter if "they" truly love the Border Collie breed?) I just don't get it??? Never have - never will.

[jdarling]

By that logic, any puppies of working Border Collies who go to pet or sport homes or even wash out as working dogs, need to be classified as "non-Border Collies". Perhaps fine dogs, but not Border Collies.

 

You're right. If their working ability on livestock is not being proven, they should be spayed or neutered. They are then an "it." Call them whatever you want.

[brndlbc]

For an example ...

If you breed for passive fighting fish . you're breeding fish NOT Siamese fighting fish.

 

 

 

Betta splendens, commonly referred to as Siamese Fighting Fish, are a species so even if you are breeding for passivity you are still breeding Siamese Fighting Fish. Now if you started breeding Combtails without fringe, then you would be losing the identifying feature that makes Combtails what they are. Generally speaking, bettas have retained much of their scrappy nature regardless of primarily being bred for looks. And for the record, if you want a true betta of quality, you should not go to the pet store and buy a "betta mill" betta. You should search out a reputable breeder (http://www.midwestbettaclub.net/ ) or find a rescue ( http://bettarescue.tripod.com/ )

[Rave]

Betta adoption? Really? That makes me giggle.

 

And fish shows too? That is awesome.

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

I think it was on Sunday Morning recently when they had the entire show devoted to animal topics that one of the correspondents bought a gold fish and took it to a fish show. The segment was woderful!

 

J.

[brndlbc]

Betta adoption? Really?

 

Seems silly doesn't it, but then again, much of what we argue about on forums like this one is just as silly to the real world who really doesn't give a rats ass. So does that make us the weird ones?

[Laurae]

How about this as another way to illustrate the point:

 

I have a border collie mix. Sophie is likely a border collie x aussie cross. Maybe something else, too, but on stock she seems to be a mixture of mostly upright aussie with just a little style of a border collie. Anyway, though she is a border collie mix, she really doesn't act very much like my border collies. Her entire attitude is very different as she is much more aloof and much less biddable, with a tendency to bark, guard my property, sleep with her head angled out from me, and generally not need to be righthereallthetime. Virtually every other owner of a border collie mix who also has full border collies that I know has noted that their BC mixes are less like border collies than whatever other breed they seem to be mixed with. I think even people on these boards have noted that.

 

So if the ability to lose whatever one believes is the essential border collie–ness can be seen in just one generation of breeding a border collie to another breed, is it not difficult to see how quickly one might slide down the slippery slope of breeding border collies who are progressively less like the border collie bred to the original working standard? I also have a few friends who have border collie mixes and do not have purebred border collies. Most of them believe their mix is pretty much just like a full border collie. They are unable to truly understand or appreciate the differences between their mixes and full border collies because they have no true basis for comparison.

 

Just because one's agility friends don't value the working standard doesn't make it less true that the border collies they love so much because of that border collie–ness are that way only because they were bred to a working standard. And that once you breed away from that standard, you are starting the slide. I think most people here get that in the abstract, but perhaps believe their friends wouldn't understand it or believe it because their dogs still have that border collie–ness and no real basis for comparison?

[Root Beer]

Betta splendens, commonly referred to as Siamese Fighting Fish, are a species so even if you are breeding for passivity you are still breeding Siamese Fighting Fish.

 

If I breed it for Agility, will it become a different type of fish? I've heard the A-Frame will do that to a breed . . .

[airbear]

I think it was on Sunday Morning recently when they had the entire show devoted to animal topics that one of the correspondents bought a gold fish and took it to a fish show. The segment was wonderful!

OMG, I would love to see that!

 

And in the interest of full disclosure, I have a non-aggressive Betta who is clicker-trained to follow a laser pointer. I realize that this could lead to OCD behaviour, and if I knew then what I know now, I would not have ever let him play with a laser.

[Rave]

If I breed it for Agility, will it become a different type of fish? I've heard the A-Frame will do that to a breed . . .

 

If they start breeding them for speed and agility, they'll swim too fast and not be able to perceive where the sides of the tank are located, crashing into them and causing serious injury.

[brndlbc]

And fish shows too? That is awesome.

 

If you want a true fish show, hit a koi show. The average price of a good koi blows Border, Barbie, Sport collies out of the water (pun intended)