Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[rushdoggie]

FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying they know more about anyone's dog or situation than the actual person involved, but I'd wager that many of us have done many competitive things in our lifetimes and do recognize that there are times when it doesn't make sense to keep pushing when an animal is making it clear that something's not right.

 

This makes the assumption that handlers of dogs who have this issue don't retire their dogs or don't enjoy playing just for fun. I don't think an effort to find the cause of this issue means that.

 

If it is a treatable condition, what would be wrong with treating it if it made your dog better? And while not breeding a dog who is prone to a physical cause of the issue starts us wading in the murky waters of genetics, from the paradigm of someone who does breed for agility this would be an important thing to know.

[juliepoudrier]

My guess is that people are quite happy with these very fast and driven dogs except for their little jumping problem. And in addition to the genetic counseling aspect, they are really looking for a medical intervention (I think that I read contact lenses somewhere) that would allow these dogs to reach their competive potential.

I suspect you're right. And of course the stated desire to weed out dogs with potential problems before investing time and money.

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

If I go ahead and concede this is a real genetic issue with agility dogs, and does not appear to have any repercussions in any other activity or in a normal life for a dog, which I'm happy to do at this point. Testing and selecting parents based on their ETS DNA status officially marks for me the split of the breed into not only working border collies and conformation border collies, but into a third distinct group, sport collies.

 

If the test were used only on an individual to determine whether to purchase a pup as an agility prospect from an otherwise well-bred working litter from non tested ETS parents, it would be one thing. But my money's on selection against ETS for the agility market.

[rushdoggie]

Searching for (and possibly locating) the genetic marker of ETS is antithetical to everything for which this forum stands

 

No one should be surprised that there are many people here who would be opposed to genetic research on ETS in much the same way we would be opposed to genetic research on tail carriage.

 

I am not surprised at all, and I don't disagree with anyone who made the point that using this as a breeding criteria could be a bad thing. I don't think its quite the same as tail carriage, but I get your gist.

 

I do disagree with reading a few pages on a messageboard and then deciding that the issue could not possibly exist because it doesn't sound right to you.

 

I wonder how people here would feel if it was found that this happened with greater frequencies in "agility bred" litters and it supported your position that the only breeding criteria should be how the dog performs on stock? Maybe this is some vision thing thats lost when its not needed for seeing moving stock?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

So, I know someone (she's on this board sometimes), who I see as really dog centric in her approach to her free time. I don't really hear her saying much of "my dog enjoys this or that" but rather, "his/her abilities match up well to what we are doing."

 

I have been through this as well, though her dogs kind of pick among "awesome" and "not as awesome" things, where mine have simply been very bad matches for the activity in question.

 

An interesting question comes up when you encounter any activity that the dog really seems to love, but considered very objectively, it's not good for the dog.

 

I had a dog who would tear a crate to pieces to get to sheep. Once working sheep, she'd be so excited you could never get her anywhere. With so whole, whole bunch more work she most likely would have settled fine. But the teeny bit of work I could give her, since she could never get to a useful stage, just frustrated her until she was simply trying to kill stuff whenever she got out of the house unsupervised.

 

I had a dog who got to where she was so excited by the Frisbee, she was jumping too high and missing it. Hmmmm. I even took her both to the ortho and had her CERF'd. We're talking competitive distance, not weekends in the park.

 

The dog I have now with Left Right Confusion Disorder (LOL Eileen!) will stop dead if he's working at a distance from me and I point at the ground forward of him. He will swing wide if I simply look purposefully at his shoulder. He's THAT sensitive to spatial presence of the handler.

 

This is what I mean by looking at possible parallels to the issue outside the strict context of agility.

[Mark Billadeau]

I am not surprised at all, and I don't disagree with anyone who made the point that using this as a breeding criteria could be a bad thing. I don't think its quite the same as tail carriage, but I get your gist.

If your preferred activity with your dogs was in the show ring and tail carriage impacted your ability to enjoy this acitivity then it would be exactly the same thing.

 

While many of us enjoy competing in sheepdog trials, the functions needed by the dogs to do well at these are exactly the same functions needed to manage our livestock with the least amount of stress (which impacts our income). If your dog messes up a jump you may not place well or may not enjoy competing; if one of our dogs messes up working livestock (either for work or play) the life of the livestock could be put at risk.

 

Livestock can be killed or injured.

How many of you have had to blue-kote, humanely dispatch, or burry a jump?

 

 

[Root Beer]

Well someone has to raise livestock or the rest of us won't eat.

 

And that negates the importance of things in peoples lives that are not necessary for their basic survival exactly how?

 

Wow, talk about assumptions. I raise stock to make money. It's part of my income, an even more important part since I became unemployed two years ago.

 

I became unemployed last August and have supplemented my income by doing private lessons with people who train their dogs for sports, including Agility.

 

So, by that logic, Agility actually has contributed to my livelihood, as well. I don't *have* to do Agility or work with people who need to help their dogs through certain issues in order to play, but doing so has contributed to my household income. I would say that has taken the role of Agility in my life beyond "just a game". That isn't actually why I consider participation in the sport as valuable to my life as a whole, but it is a fact that it has contributed to my livelihood.

 

For me, stockwork would be an unnecessary expense. Agility has contributed to our household income. What is truly important really does depend completely on the person in question and what is of most value (for me that goes beyond money, but that would be another topic altogether) to that person as an individual.

 

And I guess that's why some consider ETS something worthy of study and others do not.

[Root Beer]

If the test were used only on an individual to determine whether to purchase a pup as an agility prospect from an otherwise well-bred working litter from non tested ETS parents, it would be one thing. But my money's on selection against ETS for the agility market.

 

Still, that is if a detectible genetic marker is identified at all. If it is not, the question of selecting against ETS for the Agility market is moot.

 

Right now that is not even known. It seems to me that this whole issue comes down to the fact that more information is needed.

[Mark Billadeau]

Agility breeders will still select against anything that causes a dog to have declining performance.

 

 

[Root Beer]

While many of us enjoy competing in sheepdog trials, the functions needed by the dogs to do well at these are exactly the same functions needed to manage our livestock with the least amount of stress (which impacts our income). If your dog messes up a jump you may not place well or may not enjoy competing; if one of our dogs messes up working livestock (either for work or play) the life of the livestock could be put at risk.

 

Livestock can be killed or injured.

How many of you have had to blue-kote, humanely dispatch, or burry a jump?

 

Suppose someone wanted to purchase a Sheltie to train to compete in Agility. This person was set to buy the dog, do health checks, train the dog for years, and had hopes to enjoy Agility with that dog. He or she knows that any dog could wash out as an Agility prospect for one reason or another, but is looking to minimize that risk in every practical way possible.

 

One litter that this person considers has a parent with ETS. Puppies from other litters from this dog also have ETS.

 

Why should this person purchase that particular dog instead of going elsewhere? And how does the fact that in stockwork the well being of the livestock depends on the dog have anything to do with your position on this person's decision?

[Shoofly]

Agility breeders will still select against anything that causes a dog to have declining performance.

 

Yes, i hear they already select against SAAS (Sucks At Agility Syndrome). Surely there must be a genetic marker for that as well?!!

[gcv-border]

.... if one of our dogs messes up working livestock (either for work or play) the life of the livestock could be put at risk.

 

Livestock can be killed or injured.

How many of you have had to blue-kote, humanely dispatch, or burry a jump?

 

And on the other side of the equation, if an agility dog hurts himself seriously while incorrectly jumping (whether or not the jumping deficiency is due to ETS or not), one can spend significant $$$. I agree that the lives of livestock are probably more important than the mega-vet bill resulting from an injured dog, but it is still painful.

 

An added note: in a much earlier post (by Pearse?), it was noted that the only symptom of ETS was early takeoff over jumps. Actually, from a quick review of a couple of the videos, it was noted that ETS was also correlated with a low contact point on the up side of the dogwalk and the A-frame and with a low jump into the handler's arms. It seemed that when there was an elevation change, the dogs seemed to have problems (my interpretation). This may be why no effect is seen in weave poles?? Although I am still unconvinced that ETS exists, these additional symptoms strengthen the case for ETS IMO.

 

Jovi

[Mark Billadeau]

Suppose someone wanted to purchase a Sheltie to train to compete in Agility. This person was set to buy the dog, do health checks, train the dog for years, and had hopes to enjoy Agility with that dog. He or she knows that any dog could wash out as an Agility prospect for one reason or another, but is looking to minimize that risk in every practical way possible.

 

One litter that this person considers has a parent with ETS. Puppies from other litters from this dog also have ETS.

 

Why should this person purchase that particular dog instead of going elsewhere?

You have just described a scenario that will drive breeding practices to select against something that impacts performance at agility (i.e. agility breeding goals). You seem to be focused upon the individual dog once born. I am focused upon how this impacts the gene pool through breeding practices. I really don't care what happens in other breeds but since Border Collies are so prevalent in agility, any syndrome that impacts their performance at agility will impact breeding practices, and therefore the gene pool.

 

 

[Mark Billadeau]

And on the other side of the equation, if an agility dog hurts himself seriously while incorrectly jumping (whether or not the jumping deficiency is due to ETS or not), one can spend significant $$$. I agree that the lives of livestock are probably more important than the mega-vet bill resulting from an injured dog, but it is still painful.

 

Jovi

Do you really think livestock dogs are immune to injury?????

When has an agility dog been kicked in the head by an a-frame and rammed into a post by a tunnel?

Livestock work involves possible injury of all 3 parties involved.

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Testing and selecting parents based on their ETS DNA status officially marks for me the split of the breed into not only working border collies and conformation border collies, but into a third distinct group, sport collies.

Good point.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

You have just described a scenario that will drive breeding practices to select against something that impacts performance at agility (i.e. agility breeding goals). You seem to be focused upon the individual dog once born. I am focused upon how this impacts the gene pool through breeding practices. I really don't care what happens in other breeds but since Border Collies are so prevalent in agility, any syndrome that impacts their performance at agility will impact breeding practices, and therefore the gene pool.

 

So, do you think that Border Collie owners who do Agility should deny the possible existence of something that could very well be a reality?

 

That makes absolutely no sense to me. If ETS exists, it exists. If there is a way to detect it genetically, there is a way to detect it genetically. If it exists and there are ways to detect it genetically, it will have ramifications on breeding practices, in Border Collies and other breeds.

 

I don't see what good could come from refraining from determining whether or not it is, in fact, a reality. And, if it is determined that it is, then I don't see what good could come from denying it.

 

If this is a reality, particularly with a genetic component, do you really expect Agility participants who run Border Collies to refrain from acknowledging that fact because it would affect the gene pool?

[Mark Billadeau]

I am so tired of reading that breeding for agility is just the same as breeding for stock work; both are simply different games people can play with their dogs.

People, agility equipment can't be killed by your dog. When lives are at stake (ones that did not choose to participate), "the game" is much more serious.

 

 

[Mark Billadeau]

So, do you think that Border Collie owners who do Agility should deny the possible existence of something that could very well be a reality?

 

That makes absolutely no sense to me. If ETS exists, it exists. If there is a way to detect it genetically, there is a way to detect it genetically. If it exists and there are ways to detect it genetically, it will have ramifications on breeding practices, in Border Collies and other breeds.

 

I don't see what good could come from refraining from determining whether or not it is, in fact, a reality. And, if it is determined that it is, then I don't see what good could come from denying it.

 

If this is a reality, particularly with a genetic component, do you really expect Agility participants who run Border Collies to refrain from acknowledging that fact because it would affect the gene pool?

In one post you say you’re against the breeding for agility but now you are for helping find tools to breed a better agility dog. So are you for or against breeding for agility?

 

 

[Root Beer]

In one post you say you’re against the breeding for agility but now you are for helping find tools to breed a better agility dog. So are you for or against breeding for agility?

 

Mark, would you please do me a favor and answer some of my questions directly? I am interested in your answers. I would like to try to understand your point of view, but I can't if you reply with incorrect assumptions about my point of view.

 

I am not for helping find tools to breed a better Agility dog. I am for study and knowledge and coming to understand realities as they are. I would like to know why you apparently seem to think that something that may be a reality should be blindly denied.

[Pippin's person]

If this is a reality, particularly with a genetic component, do you really expect Agility participants who run Border Collies to refrain from acknowledging that fact because it would affect the gene pool?

 

I think the point being made is yes, pretty much that. (ETA: and not so much to refrain from acknowledging it as refrain from caring about it as far as breeding goes)

 

Breeding against ETS (a syndrome that affects only, as far as can be determined, agility jumping) means that you are trying to breed to enhance the likelihood of proper agility jumping.

 

That is, purely and simply (and as several have said), breeding toward the standard of agility rather than the standard of stock work.

 

I agree with you that if ETS exists, it exists. No reason to deny it. Where we might part company is that you (and others) seem to be saying that if it is identified and exists, purchasers of Border Collies bought for the purpose of agility should have ETS status information available to them in order to minimize the likelihood that their dog will have trouble with agility jumps.

 

I don't think there's any evidence that it should matter for the breeding of Border Collies at all.

[Pearse]

Knowing the cause of the jumping issue makes it possible to make the correct decision on how to handle it.

 

If there is a genetic mutation that causes this condition, the handler would know not to spend the time and effort on remedial jumping training that won't help.

 

I disagree. Remedial training, or to put it another way, approaching training from another direction may enable these dogs to compete normally regardless of the cause. Someone with Asperger's Syndrome may not learn the same way as someone without. That doesn't mean they can't learn. They just need an approach to education that fits their needs. These dogs may respond to being trained or handled very differently from other agility dogs.

 

That is the danger of too much emphasis on genetic testing. Variation comes to be interpreted as "defect" or "disease".

 

 

If there were a genetic mutation that could be detected in a test, handlers could have the dog tested before getting started, just as many get their dogs x-rayed, before making the investment in training and getting into Agility with the dog. Decisions on participation, training, goals, etc. could be made with the knowledge that this condition will likely develop at some point.

 

 

The problem isn't with testing individual dogs although that will get out of hand. What happens when you have a genetic test for speed, biddability, height, response times etc., etc., etc.? No, the problem is that then people start BREEDING on the basis of the genetic test without having any clue as to why the dogs are like this in the first place (remember, it is being claimed that many of these dogs are top perfomers before this condition manifests).

 

For all we know, these neurological syndromes may be the right hand end of the bell curve of what makes Border Collies, Border Collies. Just as it is suspected that the right hand of the human bell curve produces the most creative human minds, some of whom suffer from schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, Asperger's syndrome, so too some of these syndromes may be the consequence of having dogs with genius level brains. Would we be willing to give up having future Van Gogh, Mozart, Beethoven, John Nash if we could eliminate those conditions from the human population? Would we be willing to do the same in the Border Collie population? Not every dog will be affected, but it may be the case that the cost to having Border Collies be Border Collies is having a small number of Border Collies with some of these neurological syndromes.

 

The argument against this in this case, is that this "syndrome" is showing up in a variety of dog breeds, some of which have been bred for traits other than mental acuity.

 

Label this a "defect", develop a test for the "defect" and people will breed away from it. You are already seeing people talking about spaying and neutering affected dogs with no clue what causes this or what positive traits are associated with it.

[Root Beer]

I agree with you that if ETS exists, it exists. No reason to deny it. Where we might part company is that you (and others) seem to be saying that if it is identified and exists, purchasers of Border Collies bought for the purpose of agility should have ETS status information available to them in order to minimize the likelihood that their dog will have trouble with agility jumps.

 

That actually is not what I said. Can't speak for others.

 

What I am saying is that buyers who buy from breeders who market their dogs to an Agility clientele will take that into account. Whether they should or shouldn't is certainly open to debate. Nobody has, to my knowledge, presented a compelling reason why, if ETS is identified with some kind of genetic markers, those who purchase dogs for Agility from breeders should make the deliberate choice to purchase dogs with that gene.

 

That does not mean that I have any intention of purchasing a dog from a sport breeder - I don't.

 

I don't think there's any evidence that it should matter for the breeding of Border Collies at all.

 

I don't think it will matter to working breeders. There is no reason why it would.

 

It will matter to other breeders. I don't really see what anyone can do about that. If it ever gets to the point where there is a genetic marker for ETS and breeders, regardless of breed, keep breeding dogs with the gene, they won't sell dogs to Agility homes.

 

I don't really think that the fact that it doesn't have any relevant application to the breeding of working Border Collies is a reason for Linda Mecklenburg and others to cease to study ETS and determine as much about it as possible about it. It is relevant to the people to whom it is relevant.

[Mark Billadeau]

First off, there are very limited research time/people/facilities/resources available for canine studies. Do you really want to spend these on something that may impact the performance of dogs at a game as opposed to something that impacts the health of dogs? I don't; I see this effort as a waist of resources that could be better spent on health related studies that can improve the health of our breed.

 

I already have a VERY difficult time getting in touch with Mark Neff to discuss epilepsy early onset deafness, etc because he is so busy with his cancer study. I can accept that, but I will fight loosing any more of his resources for the above studies to studying something like ETS.

 

I have to go (more to come later).

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Pearse, you are a breath of fresh (and sensible) air. Thank you.

 

J.

[gcv-border]

Do you really think livestock dogs are immune to injury?????

When has an agility dog been kicked in the head by an a-frame and rammed into a post by a tunnel?

Livestock work involves possible injury of all 3 parties involved.

 

OK, Sigh, in an attempt to keep my previous comment brief, I omitted a possible scenario where if, IF, this purported ETS was due to visual impairment on some level, then trying to determine its cause could possibly help understand why other dogs (BC or not, herding participants or not) may have related symptoms. I was going to bring up dogs being kicked by livestock. Are some dogs kicked more often than others? Is that because of the type of livestock they handle, the dog's working style or possibly a visual impairment? If it is visual impairment (for argument's sake), understanding other visual syndromes may help understand what is going on when a dog is repeatedly kicked? (I realize that ETS may be a bunch of hooey or if the syndrome exists, may not be visual-based.)

 

Any human-animal endeavor can potentially involve injury to all parties involved - whether it is livestock handling, agility, free-style (not my cup of tea, but it can build a great bond and that is wonderful), SAR, falconry (off-topic), etc.

 

Jumping to find the 'gene' of a disease or syndrome without fully understanding it seems a bit backwards to me. Intellectually, I can understand why it is done (I used to be a molecular geneticist), but I still like to know what I am looking for and why. The fact that ETS, if it exists, can not be measured does not bother me since there have always been syndromes, diseases, states, etc. that could not be characterized because the current knowledge base has not yet advanced to that point.

 

Jovi