is this abuse?

[geonni banner]

In the town where I live there is a sports bar called the Up and Under. It's half a block down the street from where I live.

 

For the last several weeks a woman has been parking her van in front of or across the street from the pub with 3 dogs which appear to be Border Collies. They are in wire crates with blankets and water buckets clipped inside each one. She leaves the cargo doors and the rear hatch open. Temperatures have ranged from the high 50's to the low 80's in this period.

 

The dogs appear to be clean and healthy. One is currently wearing an Elizabethan collar.

 

This van will be parked there several times a week for hours at a time. The dogs, one in particular, seem uncomfortable with people in close proximity to the van, and there is a lot of barking. I find the barking annoying, but further, I wonder if this isn't bad for the dogs - to be in a "fishbowl" situation for so many hours.

 

I have considered calling Animal Control, but I'm not sure if this is the right course. I am not comfortable approaching the woman myself. I've had some bad experiences with trying to talk to owners about things they are doing with their dogs - even when I was being tactful and nice. (Which I'm not, always.)

 

What do you guys think?

[Sue R]

Interesting - open doors and windows; crate fans; water. Why would anyone who apparently seems to care about her dogs' welfare park them there in the first place instead of leaving them home in crates, comfort, and quiet? I wonder if they would bark at home and she lives somewhere (condo, apartment, flat) where she can't leave them home because of that.

 

If it was a hot day, or simply if your municipality has an ordinance against leaving animals in a vehicle (even if provided for), I suppose you could lodge a complaint to Animal Control or the police. Even if AC just came out to check on the situation and didn't do anything, that might be something to make her think again on this. I think that what you could or couldn't accomplish, though, would be dependent on municipal ordinances in place (or not in place) with regards to animals left in vehicles under differing weather conditions and so on.

 

I would think that with summer coming on, those dogs are not going to be safe in that van - notwithstanding water, fans, and covers. And I wonder about the barking - that can't be good for the dogs and certainly not for passersby or shop owners or residents.

 

That said, I have known people to do very well with a similar situation, where the dogs came along to work or on recreational jaunts, and spent some time crated with care for their well-being. And they did just fine, other than some barking.

[gcv-border]

Abuse or not? Not sure. A grey area. I would like to hear opinions too.

 

As far as accomodations, the owner seems to have the same set-up I have seen at agility and herding trials, i.e. wire crates inside vehicle with doors open, fans, water and bedding. The difference may be that at trials the dogs are often not left for hours in their crates.

 

Stress barking - I wouldn't want to put my dogs in that situation repeatedly. Do you think the owner knows that they are barking? Maybe a note on the windshield?

 

Jovi

[geonni banner]

 

That said, I have known people to do very well with a similar situation, where the dogs came along to work or on recreational jaunts, and spent some time crated with care for their well-being. And they did just fine, other than some barking.

 

I agree, and if it had only happened a few times, I would not have a problem with it, but this has been going on for weeks.

 

I tried to put myself in her shoes and think of why this might be happening. What I came up with was:

 

Possible abusive spouse/ child/ neighbor making it unsafe to leave the dogs at home.

 

Temporary homelessness.

 

Mental illness. (Don't laugh! She is clearly conversant with what the animals need for their physical comfort - in the circumstances - but is doing something else that runs contrary to the behavior of a dog-savvy person by putting them in this situation so much.)

 

Maybe she is doing the best she can - but I wonder...

[geonni banner]

Do you think the owner knows that they are barking? Maybe a note on the windshield?

 

Jovi

 

She knows... The van is usually within 10 or 15 feet of the open pub door. And she does come out and move the van to keep it in the shade on warm days.

[Liz P]

Why don't you just ask her?

[MyTDogs]

We do this a lot in FL. It is usually after training class when we stop for lunch or dinner. I can't imagine leaving them for hours though.

 

Honestly from what you've posted she seems to put a lot of effort into caring for them. Does she work at the pub? if so my guess is that she's doing her best to keep her well loved dogs under some trying circumstances.

 

I'd suggest if you're able to help out by offering a midday walk or something, perhaps you can better judge the situation once you meet & speak with her.

[geonni banner]

Like I said - I am not comfortable approaching the woman myself. I've had some bad experiences with trying to talk to owners about things they are doing with their dogs - even when I was being tactful and nice. (Which I'm not, always.)

 

Call me a coward, but this is literally happening in my front yard. I try to avoid trouble whenever possible. Any one of the pub staff can tell her where I live - I get fish & chips there regularly. Plus, I have an anxiety disorder. I try not to engage in conversations that could get me yelled at.

 

It has been suggested that I might mention it to the proprietor of the pub. He will probably not be eager to annoy people in the neighborhood with barking dogs.

[arf2184]

I don't think its abuse. Its not ideal and its certainly a strange thing to do all the time, but she is making a clear effort to care for them.

 

The nuisance barking could be reported to animal control. As said, it depends on city ordinances, but I doubt animal control can do anything about them being left in the car since she is making sure they're kept cool and watered. They can probably talk to her about the barking though and at the same time find out what's going on.

 

Do you have a brave friend that would be willing to talk to her? If it were me, I would just comment to her about the dogs. Something like, "Cute dogs. Do they get to go everywhere with you?" If she's in a talking mood it might be a conversation starter that leads to answers as to why she brings them and maybe an opening to politely bring up the barking and the possible discomfort of the dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

I used to take one or more dogs to work with me and leave them in the parking lot similar to how this woman is set up. In one case, it was a private parking lot, so not much public traffic. In another it was a public lot but I could park right out front where everyone I worked with could see my van. For me, it was about not leaving a pup at home all day, or perhaps bringing a dog to a vet appointment (I worked an hour from home and the vet was half an hour further north).

 

If the vehicle is wide open and she keeps it in the shade then IMO it's not all that different from leaving them crated at home (at least for me, since I don't run the a/c at home), and as someone else said, maybe there's a reason she has to bring them to work.

 

Actually one time someone called AC on me--but not because of the dog(s) in the van. There was a small grassy area around the side of the building where I worked and I used to let the dogs out there. Someone saw the dog in the grassy area, thought it was running loose, and as it was near a busy intersection called AC. When AC showed up and saw my set up, he told me how he had gotten the call (the description above) and said it was clear I had a good set up for the dogs and all was in order.

 

That said, my dogs didn't bark at passersby either.

 

So, IMO, the situation is not abusive--no more so than leaving the dogs at home in crates without a/c in the house. But if the barking is a nuisance, that's another story. If it were me, I would put up those wovem metallic sunshades--it would provide shade for the dogs, but more important, would give the dogs more privacy, which might lead to quieter dogs....

 

 

J.

[geonni banner]

If it were me, I would put up those wovem metallic sunshades--it would provide shade for the dogs, but more important, would give the dogs more privacy, which might lead to quieter dogs....

J.

 

Now that's a great idea! Maybe I'll suggest that to the owner of the pub. I don't think the woman works there, but she may. She isn't just sitting there getting smashed - she's in and out fairly often checking on the dogs. And like I said, she moves the van if the sun starts shining directly on it.

 

It's been awhile since I've been in there. I don't drink, so fish & chips is the only draw for me there.

 

Does the shade-screen cut down on airflow through the vehicle? Maybe if she just put it on the sidewalk side of the van...

 

I dunno, the dogs just seem so vulnerable to feckless or just plain mean people teasing them. I've been trying to work out if I should "do something" or just mind my own business.

[geonni banner]

 

The nuisance barking could be reported to animal control. As said, it depends on city ordinances, but I doubt animal control can do anything about them being left in the car since she is making sure they're kept cool and watered. They can probably talk to her about the barking though and at the same time find out what's going on.

 

That was my first thought, but then I thought, Well, what if she is in a bad situation? - money may be short, and if they give her some huge fine - or hassle her about licenses or other bureaucratic garbage, I've just added to her problems. If she has no fixed address for whatever reason, they might take her dogs away.

 

I'm concerned about the dogs and annoyed by the barking - on the other hand...

[juliepoudrier]

Does the shade-screen cut down on airflow through the vehicle? Maybe if she just put it on the sidewalk side of the van...

I don't think so--it's woven, so air can get through. I've even used them on the windows on the west side of a house that sat in the direct sun, and they provided noticeable shade and cooling in the house (windows open, no a/c).

 

Here's a photo and description from Clean Run.

 

Greenhouse supply places sell it too. In that case, you buy the aluminet by the square foot (or finished size) and they put the edging/grommets,etc., on for you. They're not cheap, but I think they're worth their weight in gold and wouldn't be without them.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

The photos show exactly how many of us house our dogs while at trials.

Depending upon how many spectators, competitors, and parking arrangements at the trial there could be many people walking past our crated dogs in vehicles.

[D'Elle]

It would be my guess that for some reason she has to bring the dogs with her to work and is doing the best she can for them. I have been in a situation in the past in which I had to do something very similar and it would have been pretty devastating to me to have someone call AC on me for it. I would bet she works there -- if she is not sitting at the bar drinking and she's there for hours, then what else could she be doing than working? I don't think it sounds abusive to me, especially as she checks on them frequently and moves the van out of the sun. Not ideal, but I bet she has a reason for doing it. And as has been said above, it is not much different from being crated at home. Best would be to talk to her, but I understand your unwillingness to do so.

D'Elle

[bcnewe2]

I don't think it's abuse either.

My dogs think my car is their personal large crate. What's the difference between leaving them crated at home or in a car?

The barking might be a nuisance but that's all I see that could cause a problem. THe dog barking would probably be a barker at home also. I used to travel allot, the dogs in tow. When things got wild or they weren't welcome in someone else's house they would go in the car and feel all safe. If out on the road and a storm comes up, the dogs would rather be in their safe little car than a strange hotel room.

I think it's all in what the dogs get used to.

I have had people tell me it's so sad that I've left my dogs in the car (with appropriate heat or cold situations set up) for hours at a time. I know at least 2 of them would rather be with me waiting in the car than at home without me.

Also I work at home (used to be allot more) sitting at the kitchen table for hours at a time. The dogs all lay around the whole time I'm working in one spot. Sleeping or just resting waiting for me to finish work. Again, what's the diff in where they lay around waiting, crate, house or car?

 

Taking in consideration that the temps are appropriate for the dogs.

 

 

Guess it's a bit of a hot spot for me!

 

JMHO

[Smokjbc]

As long as the dogs aren't in there when the temps rise, I only see problems with the barking as a public nuisance. I would definitely not talk to A/C at this point- I've been on that end of that when someone could have just talked to me for two minutes instead and had their fears put to rest. In my case, it was an underweight horse that I owned for literally 10 days and someone called AC on me instead of talking to me to find out that I got her that way and she had already started gaining weight. I've also had a Petco employee "staked out" at my pickup truck when dogs where crated safely in the back on a breezy low 70s day. I admit, I wasn't too polite about that.

 

The person checks on the dogs constantly (it sounds like). She may have to bring them because she had to move unexpectedly and couldn't find a place yet where the dogs can come too (has happened to me, twice) but instead of dumping them, she's doing the best she can. I personally would never let my dogs sit there and bark at people and would add screens or something so they are not so visible, but it's not abuse.

[mum24dog]

I personally would never let my dogs sit there and bark at people and would add screens or something so they are not so visible, but it's not abuse.

 

Mine go crazy if someone goes near my car so I try to block their view as best I can.

 

The concerns I would have are possible theft, interference by morons sticking their fingers in and getting bitten and possible underestimation of how fast temperatures can rise but, as you say, not abuse.

 

Pam

[juliepoudrier]

Regarding theft, it looks like there are (combination?) locks on all three crate doors.

 

As Mark pointed out, many, many dogs are crated this way at trials, where parking is often in an open field with no shade. I don't think the blue crate fans are all that effective, but you can by inverters that will run off the battery and from which you can run regular electric fans if heat really becomes an issue.

 

Again, if you don't use air conditioning at home and the dogs are acclimated, then it's unlikely they are going to overheat in a vehicle that is wide open.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

As far as temperatures, if the dogs are not sitting in direct sun they are no worse off than being in the shade of a tree (van is wide open and the crates are not near the roof of the van).

[PSmitty]

It would be my guess that for some reason she has to bring the dogs with her to work and is doing the best she can for them. I have been in a situation in the past in which I had to do something very similar and it would have been pretty devastating to me to have someone call AC on me for it. I would bet she works there -- if she is not sitting at the bar drinking and she's there for hours, then what else could she be doing than working? I don't think it sounds abusive to me, especially as she checks on them frequently and moves the van out of the sun. Not ideal, but I bet she has a reason for doing it. And as has been said above, it is not much different from being crated at home. Best would be to talk to her, but I understand your unwillingness to do so.

D'Elle

 

Yes, this. I certainly wouldn't call this set up abusive at all. It's not ideal, of course, but hopefully only a temporary thing.

 

ETA: I also had the thought that maybe she's just passing through town, and wherever she's staying (hotel, friend's place) won't allow the dogs to stay when she's not there, so she brings them to the pub with her. Maybe she's doing some kind of temporary business there, or visiting? I don't know.

[bcnewe2]

I agree, if the dogs are acclimated which I try and make sure they are, then it's no different from another shady spot.

For some reason, my dogs never bark at anything. I guess they might bark if a squirrel came along and chattered to them but if strangers come up they get all waggly to see someone new.

I have been places where lots of dogs were crated in vehicles, I hated walking by the ones that acted like they were going to kill you if you got to close to the car, but that's an owner issue.

Dew and Mick have never met someone they didn't like. When I pull up to stoplights with Dew in the car, she'll get all lovey dovey just lookin out the window if a person that's next to us in their own car even glances our way. It's almost embarrassing but I've seen many of frowning face turn into a smile when they see Dew all soft and cuddly lookin out the window. Mick thinks cars are for sleeping and getting to sheep. We went through a stage where he had to go to the vet allot, he got to the point where he didn't want to get in the car but once in, he just lays down and sleeps. At the bank I have to ask for 2 treats cause they never see him sleeping in the back seat. But he does know when Dew gets a treat and he doesn't.

Like Julie said, locks on the crates would address the theft issues.

[Journey]

I find nothing abusive about this set up. However, I do find it highly offensive that there has been a lack of courtesy given to the owner. A simple inquiry. Yet the audacity of uploading pictures to the internet of someones vehicle and dogs, w/o permission, is not abusive? The dog world is small.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

My two cents. It looks fine to me. Dogs have shade, water and she takes care of them. Yo DO NOT know the situation so you can ask her or let it go. She might have have a place at home where the dogs can be cooler, or maybe the home situation may not be good for the dogs to be by themselves, or maybe she does an event with the dogs before or after, or something. The fact she has the dogs well cared for and checks up on them speaks for itself.

 

I would be worried if the van was closed and the dogs had no water but as I see it, she is trying to make it comfortable for the dogs.

 

If this were my dogs and I saw this thread about this going on. I would be very upset. She is obviously trying to make a good effort to make sure the dogs are comfortable.

[geonni banner]

Just as a general FYI...

 

I started this thread for advice. I have no plans to do anything about this at present.

 

I tried to be clear about the fact that it seemed the woman is clearly doing a lot of things right, and that this may be the best she can do at present.

 

I took pictures and posted them so people could see exactly how the dogs were situated. I didn't want people to get the impression that the dogs were in a van with the windows cracked only a little.

 

I was careful not to post anything with a license plate showing.

 

The majority of responses to this thread indicate that we are not looking at an abusive situation. This confirms my reluctance to call animal control over the last few weeks.

 

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

FWIW - I do tend to mind my own business when it comes to how others manage their dogs. Short of a thrashing or other physical mistreatment I don't interfere, but as I said, I've been seeing this situation for weeks now, and I began to wonder what others would think about it. Now I know. Unless the weather starts to get really hot I think I'll stay out of it.