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Hi All!!!! New here...

 

Have 3 dogs, 2 border collies and a lab(my fiance's dog)...

 

The city I used to live in had a nice variation on there leash law : All dogs must be on leash when off there property with two exceptions #1) they have an e-collar on #2) they have a AKC Canine Good Citizen certificate or equivilant......this was GREAT!! Rewarded owners who were responible and gave us owners who put the time and effort into our dogs other option besides woing and having our dogs chewed on at the dog park...could take them to the park, play fetch or frisbee, do water retrieves and hiking...would just make sure to call our dogs when someone or another dog approached to let them pass or make sure they were ok with letting our dogs greet them..

 

Just moved to a different city and they do NOT have this variation...only all dogs on leash at all times...and are big into ticketing people...

 

Does anybody know or would have some advice on how to get a similar variation on this ordinance passed in other cities??? I emailed the previous city to get some info on how they got this passed...but no reply...

 

All ideas welcome!!!

 

Thanks :)

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No, I wish I did. We have "6 foot leash, all the time" here, as well. It's a little frustrating because when I was contacting the city to try to arrange for a place to practice flyball or hold a tournament, we couldn't, because of the leash laws - even if we reserved the parks! Agility, all of that, has to be done in back yards and on private property. One of my dogs used to love to go out, get the morning newspaper and bring it in, and even that was deemed citation-worthy - even though he was staying on my own property and under my direct supervision.

 

Another variation I would love to see would be to have dogs licensed to ride on public transportation, if they pass a certain test or wear a muzzle for the sake of liability or whatever.

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The city I used to live in had a nice variation on there leash law : All dogs must be on leash when off there property with two exceptions #1) they have an e-collar on #2) they have a AKC Canine Good Citizen certificate or equivilant......this was GREAT!! Rewarded owners who were responible

 

That is horrific - a public body encouraging the use of electric shock collars.

 

This is what happens in Wales if you use one, and hopefully England and Scotland will follow suit and join the increasing number of countries where they are severely restricted or banned -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13042363

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thats a really cool ammedment, I wish! we dont have such a thing here, but the AC officers are not ticket happy either, I have been caught by AC a number of times running my dogs off leash in public area's all I got was "hey, you need to leash your dogs, there is a fine for it" "oh sorry, ok *leash my dogs*" we all go on our way lol

 

e-collar is electronic collar..I have no issue with it, I have one myself, I love it, some of the best money I ever spent.

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Couple things....

One of my dogs used to love to go out, get the morning newspaper and bring it in, and even that was deemed citation-worthy - even though he was staying on my own property and under my direct supervision.

 

Wow....do you live right in the think of a city? I can't imagine living with laws like that. I'm all for non roaming or misbehaved neighbor dogs being undercontrol, but the idea of never letting my dogs off leash just freaks me out!

 

That is horrific - a public body encouraging the use of electric shock collars.

 

This is what happens in Wales if you use one, and hopefully England and Scotland will follow suit and join the increasing number of countries where they are severely restricted or banned -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...-wales-13042363

 

 

let me say, I've never used a shock collar to train a dog. I have used a bark collar, which some will say it the same thing. TO me the difference is, I don't have my finger on the button, I am not controlling the timing when the shock occurs. I have run across some barkers in my time that nothing else would work.

Next, so would you say watching some informed person jerking the heck out of a dog with a pinch or choke collar is any less painful? A properly used tool for training a dog is key. I personally use lots of methods but do not have the luxury of all positive training, or maybe it's just the proper know how.

 

The article which you linked said that this particular dog was wearing a collar which seemed to be an underground fence collar. In my mind again, more like the bark collar, self controlled not subject to someones whim or trigger finger.

 

I once might have had the same opinion that mum24dog has, but over the years I've seen abuse of all kinds and e-collars aren't usually the worst ones. Can be, but that is not what I've experienced.

Mis information seems to top my list. The main thing I see is the bad owners dogs are over representing the well trained ones causing the government to be so heavily involved with animal laws. Let's not focus on different methods of training, lets put our energy into the blatant abuse that goes on that in no ones opinion is a different choice of training tools.

We can't even get proper puppy mill laws on the books, There are so many things that are over controlled. Not enough of the things that really need controlling.

IMHO

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I don't think the OP was trying to condone the use of Shock collars....and the ordinance isn't really ENCOURAGING the use of shock collars per se, just that owners who are responsible and get out and train there dogs, with whatever means necessary, will get more freedom and options for there dogs!!!

 

I personaly don't use shock collars, but I know very well respected trainers who do(mostly hunting/fields trained dogs)...and it works for them, and the dogs definetly don't seem to mind. They seem to be happily going about there work, or exploring off leash..knowing exactly what is expected of them.

 

I would rather an owner used a shock collar if that's what they need to use to be able to control the dog, rather than not train the animal at all. period.

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e-collar is electronic collar..I have no issue with it, I have one myself, I love it,

 

Bet your dog doesn't.

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let me say, I've never used a shock collar to train a dog. I have used a bark collar, which some will say it the same thing. TO me the difference is, I don't have my finger on the button, I am not controlling the timing when the shock occurs. I have run across some barkers in my time that nothing else would work.

 

Of course it's the same thing. The dog suffers an electric shock.

 

If anything anti bark collars are worse since there is no control over when the dog gets a shock. They don't only go off when the dog is barking - they can be set off by unconnected stimuli and the dog can't get away. At least with a human pushing the button, with the right timing there is a chance the dog will only be punished for the unwanted behaviour. Washing your hands of responsibility for pressing the button is just denial. Who put the collar on the dog?

 

Sorry to be so blunt but we talk straight here and I get so frustrated that people don't see these things for what they are. Heavy advertising and propaganda have a lot to answer for.

 

And I certainly know about barking dogs - I have a jack russell.

 

Next, so would you say watching some informed person jerking the heck out of a dog with a pinch or choke collar is any less painful?

 

No,they shouldn't be used either, and anyone who does that could in no way be called "informed". Pain should have no place in the way we treat what are supposed to be our best friends.

 

Let's call them what they are - not "bark collars" or "e collars" or "electronic collars" or "invisible fences". They are electric shock collars, nothing less.

 

The article which you linked said that this particular dog was wearing a collar which seemed to be an underground fence collar. In my mind again, more like the bark collar, self controlled not subject to someones whim or trigger finger

 

Yes, and see how effective it was - the dog was repeatedly found wandering. It happens that some dogs will override the shock if there is sufficient incentive to get out such as chasing a squirrel but then be unwilling to return because of the anticipation of the shock. Dogs have been killed on the road that way, so beware any "invisible fence" fans.

Anything that ioprates by means of an electric shock collar is banned in Wales and anyone using one will be liable to prosecution and punishable by up to 51 weeks in jail and/or a fine.

 

(Strange that a rural country like Wales where puppy farming is widespread and animal welfare not a shining example should be leading the way amongst the home nations just as Scotland did on the subject of banning docking completely.)

 

I understand that when you live in a country where there is such casual acceptance of punishment tools it must be hard to appreciate just how abhorrent they are seen to be in other parts of the world.

 

Every single one of our major animal welfare and training organisations is actively campaigning to get them banned. They are banned from use by our police and armed forces. They are not used by those training service or search and rescue dogs. If professionals like that will not use them, is it right for them to be on open sale to the uninformed public?

 

The OP quotes a local law that appears to place the use of a shock collar before evidence that some real training has been carried out. What sort of message does that give to Joe Public? Quite honestly if I saw a dog with a shock collar on I would give it a wide berth because of the unpredictability of their effect.

So easy for them to associate whatever was present when they got the shock with the pain, and it might not be what the button pusher intended.

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I understand that when you live in a country where there is such casual acceptance of punishment tools it must be hard to appreciate just how abhorrent they are seen to be in other parts of the world.

 

 

Once you've seen them actually used correctly you find that maybe they aren't abhorrent and are a useful tool in the right situation.

 

Halti's are highly aversive to many dogs and could easily cause great harn to them in the right situation, easy walk harnesses can be painful to dogs, but people tout them as humane.

 

An e-collar can be a useful long distance communication tool for some dogs that have been properly trained and conditioned to it, ie they understand what it means.

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Just moved to a different city and they do NOT have this variation...only all dogs on leash at all times...and are big into ticketing people...

 

Does anybody know or would have some advice on how to get a similar variation on this ordinance passed in other cities??? I emailed the previous city to get some info on how they got this passed...but no reply...

 

So, you're new here, and stepped right into the middle of one of the classic forum "heated debates." Good luck wading through that to get at an answer to your original question. :)

 

In my city, we have a leash law, but it's certainly not enforced for things like going out to get the paper. My dog is always off-leash moving from the car to the back yard or front door. He never strays from his path, and because of that, none of my neighbors have complained about him. Ever. I also have him off leash in the woods at the local park when there aren't people around, and he gets to run off leash to greet Joey, the husky, King of the Neighborhood.

 

I think the key in my city is that neighbors and others WILL call the authorities if people are letting their dogs run loose where they could disturb or frighten people. My dog is always willing to come to me to be leashed when I ask him - which I do, anytime we run into someone else in the park woods, or when I see a dog up ahead. (He's dog-reactive.) Buddy would never move toward a strange human by choice, but other humans don't know that, and it's not up to me to decide whether they should be scared of him or not. And honestly, loose dogs who aren't under control give me a pain in the neck, too, since I have to control my reactive dog AND the other dog, too - an unmanageable task.

 

So, we have a strict leash law, enforced as it is needed against people who let their dogs bother others, and less enforced when dogs aren't causing problems. I kind of like it that way.

 

Mary

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Once you've seen them actually used correctly you find that maybe they aren't abhorrent and are a useful tool in the right situation.

Fear and pain certainly can be used to modify behaviour and I agree there are situations where their use may be justified. I think it is appropriate in, for example, rattlesnake training -- where the I really would prefer my dog to associate a rattlesnake with pain to letting her get bit by one. For general training, however, I regard the technique as unnecessary and counter productive. An ordinance that requires such a device is abhorrent, because it begs for misuse.

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Wow - this is a morass to step into! I have issue with the comment about living in a country that so habitually uses aversives that we are conditioned to it. Most people and clubs I know use positive training. There are a few old school hold-backs and some people who haven't a clue, but most use and tout positive training. When the original poster posed their question, it never occurred to me they meant shock collars. I don't approve of using invisible fences, but I expect that is what the e-collar provision in the bill must have been written to include. I cannot imagine any community in the US endorsing the regular use of shock collars in any other context. Certainly agility and flyball events don't even allow them on the trial premises.

 

The exception where I have encountered the habitual use of aversives is sheep dog training. Other than that exception, I have encountered positive reward based training.

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What proof is the CGC that your dog is trustworthy off leash? I can't even begin to tell you how many dogs I know that have a CGC and I wouldn't ever want to be around them off leash in a public setting. The CGC test is performed on leash and proves that your dog listens to you when you are right there. It tests nothing in regard to your dog being 50 yards away from you when he spots another dog in the distance that he wants to go play with (or... attack).

 

Do I think leash laws are stupid? No, because they protect us from idiots who think their dogs are trained but they aren't. I finally gave up taking my dogs rollerblading in my neighborhood because I got so tired of fending off all the off leash hooligans who would come running after us. At least when I'm flat-footed (not on wheels) I have a little more chance of defending my dogs.

 

I feel bad for people with dogs that are truly trained and have no opportunity to let them run off leash. I'm thankful that I do have many non-public areas where it is safe to let my crew off leash and not worry about having anyone else around.

 

I am another e-collar owner. FWIW, on the rare occasion that one of the dogs needs a "reminder," they pretty much never go above a level 2. I regularly test the collar on myself -- Level 2 makes me jump and gets my attention, but it most assuredly doesn't hurt and I'm not electrocuting my dogs.... I do not correct my dogs with anything that I haven't applied to myself first, so I am fully aware of how the collar feels.

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I understand that when you live in a country where there is such casual acceptance of punishment tools it must be hard to appreciate just how abhorrent they are seen to be in other parts of the world.

 

 

Huge mis-information

 

Of course it's the same thing. The dog suffers an electric shock.

 

If anything anti bark collars are worse since there is no control over when the dog gets a shock. They don't only go off when the dog is barking - they can be set off by unconnected stimuli and the dog can't get away. At least with a human pushing the button, with the right timing there is a chance the dog will only be punished for the unwanted behavior. Washing your hands of responsibility for pressing the button is just denial. Who put the collar on the dog?

 

 

Some of my dogs have had bark collars on. Yes they are e-collars but I totally disagree with the above statement. If I have the button in my hand, my timing has to be perfect for the dog to associate the correction with the unwanted behavior. With a bark collar the timing is way better than I could do myself.

Only once in my times of using an e-collar/bark collar (the only kind I've used) have I seen it go off with something other than barking, it went off when 2 dogs got into a fight and the vibrations of the fight set it off. I don't wash my hands of responsibility for corrections, I choose to use something better than what I can offer a correction for in the since of timing for a particular issue.

 

 

The exception where I have encountered the habitual use of aversives is sheep dog training. Other than that exception, I have encountered positive reward based training.

More mis-information.

Unless you are considering corrections of any kind to be adverse.

 

If you don't like them, there is an easy solution, don't use them. But don't condemn the use of them by all people, by users that are using them in an unfit manner.

Just as much or more damage can be done to a dog with a choke chain or pinch collar, for that matter even a flat buckle collar.

I choose to use different methods than the above poster(s) but I don't condemn their methods, I appreciate the same respect.

 

And if you ask my dogs, are they abused? I'm pretty sure they would say, just work us on sheep and will show you what we think about being partners with our owner. IOW...they are quite happy with our arrangement.

And as a side, I have tried a shock or e-collar on myself and my children have done the same. And no I didn't ask them to do it, they were corious as to what a correction from an ecollar felt like. None of us were damaged in any way. Really it wasn't even uncomfortable till I got to about 5 or 6 on a collar that had 9 levels.

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I am another e-collar owner. FWIW, on the rare occasion that one of the dogs needs a "reminder," they pretty much never go above a level 2. I regularly test the collar on myself -- Level 2 makes me jump and gets my attention, but it most assuredly doesn't hurt and I'm not electrocuting my dogs.... I do not correct my dogs with anything that I haven't applied to myself first, so I am fully aware of how the collar feels.

 

I've never understood this line of reasoning. You have tested level 2 on yourself, so you think it's fine to use that level on your dogs. But you're not 40 pounds...? Seems to me, if you're 120 pounds, you'd want to test the setting on yourself at level 6 (or three times as strong to account for three times the weight difference).

 

How can you assume that the collar feels the same on you as it does on your much smaller dog?

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Well by that right, I'm testing it on my bare skin with direct contact. My dogs have a thick coat of hair that it has to go through.

 

Those who are against e-collar use will never agree with those who do use them. My young dog wears one in spurts when she needs a reminder that I do have a say in what she does 50 yards away from me (99% of the time she is perfect, but occasionally she finds something nasty or decides that chasing something is more fun and I need her to know that's not okay for reasons of safety). My oldest dog wears one in the car because otherwise he is a reactive barker and I have no way of correcting it while I'm driving. He is conditioned to the collar and knows when it is on (which basically means I failed when initially using it for training) -- But he doesn't bark when the collar is on, so it works for us. He needed a grand total of two corrections.

 

I consider myself to be a positive trainer and train everything via clicker and rewards. But there are some situations where that can't be achieved (like when I'm driving). When I use the collar as a recall correction, it is always paired with a reward upon her return.

 

I maintain that a level two correction is quite mild and benign.

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How can you assume that the collar feels the same on you as it does on your much smaller dog?

 

 

IMO the difference between me and the dog is the fact that I know it's coming, I control the button when I'm trying it on myself and I can stop it if I'm uncomfortable. I think for a dog it's more like a total surprise, at least when they are first put on.

 

I was going to use one on Lily my LGD to stop her from killing the chickens. I put it on her, pressed the button once and decided there were other ways of going about not letting her kill the chickens. In the end I separated her from her chicken targets. I feel if I had a better understanding of how to use the collar I might have kept up with it. But it's a strong tool, not to be used by the untrained, which I felt was me.

Same with the bark collar. My reasoning to use it was everything else I'd tried was getting no where, but with the bark collar I knew the timing was going to be spot on. It did cure the barking of the dogs I used it on but only in the content of when I put it on them and a particular situation.

 

Dew is a barker, she barks as a way of communication. I might bother others but in that manner it doesn't bother me. But the uncontrollable barking that she did and one other dog did when I was going out to work other dogs, was unbearable. So for us it worked for what I intended it to do.

 

I can't imagine that it hurts a dog anymore than it hurts a human except for the above mentioned reason. The knowledge of when and why it's happening.

 

But...that's just my observations in my own personal experiences.

 

I hate to see some one condemn something so vehemently when by what they write sounds like they have no first hand knowledge.

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When I referred to aversives in sheep dog training, someone said I was misinformed. Perhaps I am. My experience in the area is VERY limited. I was referring to the rattle sticks, flags, slapping the stick on the ground, yelling at the dog and running through the sheep at the dog that I saw. Also, it was based on the description in the book that was recommended to me of the method to teach the dog to down. It wasn't a judgment on those training methods - I don't know enough to judge. It was pure observation that compared to my sports training, Sheep dog training seemed to rely on punishment, and was a bit of a culture shock for me. I felt like I could not honestly make the general statement I made about the prevalence of reward-based training without that caveat.

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WOW!! I did get a dicsussion going here :unsure:

 

My first thought in trying to get this passed WAS a fear that people would be scrambling to get CGC's (which I know are relatively easy to pass)..and we would have a scew of out of control dogs running off leash...

 

But the more I think about it I really feel that the owners that for whatever reason don't want to put the time and effort into training there dogs will continue NOT to..while the few people who would benefit from this ordinance passing, and who already train there dogs are the ones that will benefit from it

 

It's funny, the city seemed pretty proud that they were opening up ANOTHER dog park. I see a benefit to dog parks but I certainly can't train there, and my dogs get way to amped up, plus they get munched on when playing any kind of fetching game(my dog had his ear torn not to long ago from a high prey drive german shepherd). I find that dog parks, in a way, are almost encouraging the lack of training and time put into pets. I see more and more owners literally get dragged into the front gate, and let fido off the leash to run around like a maniac and wear themselves out, with little to no control from the owner. And the owner doesn't have to do much but stand around, and prey the dog doesn't bite anyone. I know dog park rules say the dogs are supposed to be under control by there owner, but they rarely are and there is really no way to police this issue...

 

So we just stay away...hence the hopeful off-leash variation :)

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there are several ways for a person to "get started" in grassroots activism and getting an amended leash law.

contact whomever represents you on City Council,get to know them. have those that are in agreement with you contact their councilman.how about contacting training centers or trainers that offer CGC classes and get them on board.

contact and talk to other dog owners.

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