Poor Tempe (BCC/overheating)

[2 Devils]

So Tempe is in the Border Collie Collapse study going on and she had an episode today. Since my house is on a hill and it has been so wet, I have not taken the dogs out to play much the last 2 weeks. I am afraid of injury since I already have one dog that had TPLO on both knees.

 

It is a warm day but a nice breeze and getting to play ball sent Tempe over the edge. She was being crazy and less than 10 minutes of alternating throwing a ball for 3 dogs and the last few throws I gave Tempe a ball to maul so she wouldn't chase balls any more we came inside. She seemed fine when we came inside and not even 5 minutes later she was getting wobbly and her mental functions were poor.

 

Off to the bathtub we went and I ran cool water over her but mainly her belly. While in the tub she also got a quick bath since she was very muddy. Now 20 minutes later and she is totally back to normal.

 

I really hope they officially can diagnose BCC soon and that I can truly put a name with these episodes. They don't happen often since I monitor her play time and stop before she goes over the edge but I obviously missed the signs today.

[Kate Jones]

Hi, I can relate. My 8 yr old BC, Really, is also a part of the study. Over the last 2 weeks the temps here in N. Texas have been nice, from 75-90 (cople days). Really's had 4 BCC episodes, even at 73 degrees outside. Part of the collapsing is due to the excitement, not just heat or physical shape.

 

I of course monitor her activities, and when we are just playing ball she will lie down and quit 90% of the time. if we go beyond her signal, she'll collapse. But lately she has not been giving me the signal. So I have to keep her exercise to doing things like tricks when we're outside, while throwing the long ball for my other BC.

 

I do a lot of tricks and trick training in the house, alon with fetch. Both dogs can get pretty winded, so that's our summer routine, along with a walk in the am and pm.

 

I too hope they find a genetic link. But not for the sake of having a name for the collapsing, for the sake of future dogs.

 

Sure hope Tempe doesn't have many collapsing episodes!

 

Kindly,

Kate

[Callie]

I'm new to this website and after reading all the posts on Exercise Induced Collapse, I feel that my dog suffers from this too! She will be 3 in Sept, but has had these type of episodes for may 2 years now. It wasn't until I talked to an agility instructor that she used the term 'heat sensitivity.' But now definitely feel it's the EIC. My BC is very intense and a Frisbee nut! We live in west TN so the heat and humidity is a double wammy for us. However, she doesn't have the EIC during the winter when she runs in a 130 acre dog off leash park for 1 - 1 hour 15 minutes.

 

Have either of you talked with other owners that have siblings to your dogs? I have and maybe one of the other 5 pups does the staggering but usually much longer than he 10 minutes it takes for my BC.

[juliepoudrier]

Generally a characteristic of EIC/BCC is that it isn't weather dependent. The one youngster I worked with had problems even in winter.

 

ETA: I read your other post. I suspect your dog is simply overheating. I've had a dog overheat within 15 minutes while chasing a frisbee in 70-degree low-humidity spring weather (and this was with breaks in the shade). The fact that she can go for an hour plus in the winter and only mintues in summer doesn't point to EIC/BCC to me.

 

You can try shaving, but it may be that you will simply have to modify your exercise routines in the summer. Is there somewhere you can take her to swim? Fetching in water is good exercise and usually helps avoid overheating (though you need to watch that they don't ingest too much water while they carry the fetch opject in the water--since their mouth is open holding whatever they're fetching, they can take in a lot of water).

 

J.

[Beach BCs]

My male is a dog that just gets hot very quickly. In the summer we always have his pool set up. He will fetch the toy a couple times and then hit the pool. Even in the winter, after a few runs he's looking for a puddle (mud preferred, I think) to sink into. He will swim in any weather, no matter how cold. I joke that he's a Lab in a Border Collie suit. Now, my female...she will rarely play in the heat. Nor does she enjoy getting wet. That doesn't stop me from putting her in the pool if I think she's too warm. I've never clipped either of their coats.. I would suggest settinjg up a pool or simply limiting her exercise in the heat.

[Liz P]

However, she doesn't have the EIC during the winter when she runs in a 130 acre dog off leash park for 1 - 1 hour 15 minutes.

 

Not EIC then.

[Pearse]

Not EIC then.

 

I have a hunch that when we know more about this, we will change the name from "Exercise Induced Collpase" to "Stimulus-Induced Collapse".

 

It seems to me that the most affected dogs share a trait of being described as "intense". You can even see this in non-affected dogs at field trials. Super intense dogs heat up faster than plain-working chilled out dogs, or so it seems.

 

I have a feeling this will turn out to be a "brain turned up to eleven" syndrome.

[juliepoudrier]

Pearse,

I had a discussion about that with a friend whose dog apparently suffers from BCC (at least while chasing a ball/frisbee--I saw the dog work for much longer than that without any issues, which made me wonder about the overstim/brain turned off thing). I remember another friend's young dog who would get overheated quickly even in winter. It seemed to me that it was really more mental (dog being overexcited/overstimulated by work). This particular dog outgrew the issue, and I wonder the the younger dog that reminded me of that dog will too.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My feelings about it lean towards hyperstimulation as opposed to something strictly metabolic as well. My reasons are anecdotal but fairly extensive over time as well as personal experience.

 

I am looking forward to the clinical data on this one.

[Liz P]

My feelings about it lean towards hyperstimulation as opposed to something strictly metabolic as well. My reasons are anecdotal but fairly extensive over time as well as personal experience.

 

I am looking forward to the clinical data on this one.

 

Me three. From what I have seen it is a mental issue. The super intense, excitable dogs tend to collapse when their heads aren't right.

[Journey]

I think I agree as well, except...what about the super intense working dog? Heads on right, calm steady work, quit and the dog drops. Ironically, the ones I've seen are from the cooler climates too, not the southern dogs used to the heat. Any clue when info from the study will be released?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Karen, I don't want to get into it too much, but I believe it's a matter of using/training all the pieces in the head in harmony. I think stuff connects more in order, in their growing brains, with the combination of a well bred dog, appropriate training, and a natural training/working environment.

 

Sometimes I sit and think how incredibly complex the brain of a working dog is. We ask so much of them at such an early age. They can do it, and love it, sure, but so often I forget to remember what a baby my dog still is, and let him be silly because he doesn't have the tools to deal with what I've thrown at him.

 

I'm speaking now as someone training a dog to do farm chores, and be a service dog, at the same time. He eats up the training and pressure, but it's up to me to make sure we go slow enough to allow his grey matter to keep up.

 

Anyway, working training has a lot more of a traditional sequence behind it that matches how the dog's brain is wired, I suspect.

 

But our training methods, and how we keep our dogs, is changing too.

 

I've said more than I meant to. The brain these days is not behaving.

[Callie]

Generally a characteristic of EIC/BCC is that it isn't weather dependent. The one youngster I worked with had problems even in winter.

 

ETA: I read your other post. I suspect your dog is simply overheating. I've had a dog overheat within 15 minutes while chasing a frisbee in 70-degree low-humidity spring weather (and this was with breaks in the shade). The fact that she can go for an hour plus in the winter and only mintues in summer doesn't point to EIC/BCC to me.

 

You can try shaving, but it may be that you will simply have to modify your exercise routines in the summer. Is there somewhere you can take her to swim? Fetching in water is good exercise and usually helps avoid overheating (though you need to watch that they don't ingest too much water while they carry the fetch opject in the water--since their mouth is open holding whatever they're fetching, they can take in a lot of water).

 

J.

Julie thank you for your reply...and after I read more posts about others having their dogs exhibit the EIC I too thought then sounds like my dog DOES NOT have EIC. Her mother's owner told me my dog was the very intense puppy out of the litter. And yes we do stay inside a lot during the summer and when we are out we do not venture to far from the house/bathtub. There are 3 lakes at the county off leash park I mentioned in a post but they have such a tick problem and tall grass that I dont' take her there. Not to mention she is just now wading alonog the edge of the lakes with her frisbee...and will trot along a short bit but she will not get in full body. She did jump into a pool the end of May...she paddled back to the stairs...was only out maybe 3 feet. She had dropped her frisbee in the water, we pulled it out, and then moments later she jumped in. Still can't figure that one out. We are at the beach now and have been trying to get her to trot in the waves but the noise and motion of the ocean puts her in chase mode if we get near the water...so have been working on being further away and practicing her sit and alternate with walking. She can be a bit timid with new situations but she LOVES the beach from day one! We purchased a kiddie pool last summer and have tried to get her to go in without water, then water, but she doesn't have any interest so...think I need to keep trying to introduce it to her. We are going to a canine camp in a couple weeks where there will be many other border collies, other dogs as well and they have lakes on their property so I'm hoping she will enjoy the doggie vacation and see other dogs going into the water, etc to help build her confidance.

[Maralynn]

I have a hunch that when we know more about this, we will change the name from "Exercise Induced Collpase" to "Stimulus-Induced Collapse".

 

It seems to me that the most affected dogs share a trait of being described as "intense". You can even see this in non-affected dogs at field trials. Super intense dogs heat up faster than plain-working chilled out dogs, or so it seems.

 

I have a feeling this will turn out to be a "brain turned up to eleven" syndrome.

 

Kipp is quite stylish and intense. He has a hard time relaxing around stimulus - It kind of a "there's something there, I've got to do something" attitude. And he heats up pretty fast.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've privately mentioned adding a bit of potassium salt to the diet for these dogs to several people. Has anyone tried it?

 

I've been doing this regularly for years for other reasons and have had two dogs with probable EIC/BCC littermates, and one possible actual BCC dog herself. Never had a serious problem.

 

I work sheep daily, and play hard, hike, and have played flyball in the past and now I lure course.

 

I'm wondering whether anyone would be willing to try the potassium salt to see whether it helps an active case. I have the correct figures for Optimum healthy amounts from 2009 so nothing is overdone or thrown off. PM me or my email is in my profile, I think.

[topnotchdog]

Our dog is suspected of having BCC. At first it was a real trick (not to mention a bit scary) having a young, active dog with this apparent syndrome. But he's two now and, knock wood, we're managing it well while also keeping him fit and active.

 

Given that the combination of exertion and mental over-stimulation seem to be the key (as has been mentioned, ambient temperature is not the most important thing, hotter sure doesn't help, though), we have done the following which have made a huge difference. (We have fiddled with a variable here and there as an experiment---we are done fiddling & it seems he's not growing out of it, but would be great if he did!) No idea how relevant this is for a working dog, but perhaps some of it could be adapted:

 

- alternate states of arousal/over stimulation (ie toy play) with focus and something "more cognitive" (ie a trick, obedience or agility behavior)

- rank the dog's toys and play only with those that do not get the dog into that state

- choose games that are not over-stimulating (fetch may be too much, but "find it" is just right and gets the dog same amount of exercise--really seems to help that he cannot see the toy fly and land)

- alternate toy play and food rewards in training, or use just food (act of eating seems to create a calming feedback loop)

- teach and intersperse impulse control exercises like stay, leave it into play (i.e. throw toy while dog in stay, release)

-stop for breaks before dog is in trouble (breaks include behaviors we've had to put on cue b/c he wouldn't do them otherwise, including panting, drinking, getting in kiddie pool; with our dog it was important to learn the signs that preceded trouble--for eg he would get very sticky with the toy, especially releasing it)

- use Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol (Clinical behavioral Medicine for Small Animals) and Leslie McDevitt's On Off Switch Games among others (Control Unleashed)

 

Hope that helps somebody. I feel for the dogs and the owners whose work is affected by this and I hope we'll know more about this apparent syndrome soon. I know of at least one other breed affected (whippets) so hopefully that will help gather information.

 

Barbara

[topnotchdog]

P.S. FWIW my understanding is that EIC and BCC are likely *not* interchangeable syndromes. The EIC found in Labradors is evidently a musculo-skeletal issue, whereas the hunch anyway with BCC is that it involves something more anxiety-pathway related. Sorry if this butchers it altogether, maybe someone can correct me/clarify this.

[Jedismom]

I have a hunch that when we know more about this, we will change the name from "Exercise Induced Collpase" to "Stimulus-Induced Collapse".

 

 

Jedi has been affected by this over the last couple of years. I agree with the stimulus-induced collapse idea. For example, I can sit in a chair in the backyard at 90 degrees (which it is for many months here in Florida) and play fetch with him for let's say 30 consecutive throws. This takes about 5 min. and then a break is needed. He's ok at this point. With the same weather conditions and playing time, if I "rev" it up and act all excited while I'm doing it, he can only go about 15 to 20 throws. The same thing applies if my son's friends are over and they are playing fetch with him. They are actually throwing the ball slower and he is not running as much, but the exitement factor is high. A bunch of young boys playing with him rather than boring old mom. So again, I have to put a stop to it after about 20 throws.

[PSmitty]

I have a hunch that when we know more about this, we will change the name from "Exercise Induced Collpase" to "Stimulus-Induced Collapse".

 

It seems to me that the most affected dogs share a trait of being described as "intense". You can even see this in non-affected dogs at field trials. Super intense dogs heat up faster than plain-working chilled out dogs, or so it seems.

 

I have a feeling this will turn out to be a "brain turned up to eleven" syndrome.

 

I mostly agree with this, too. I bet there is a link to it being more stimulus induced, than exercise induced. However, I'm not sure that it's only the super intense dogs (temperament wise) that are affected. I think it's the stimulus of the particular activity, vs just the fact that the dog is an intense one. I hope that makes sense, I'm having trouble with words today.

 

I say this because the one dog I know who seems to suffer from this problem is not intense and super high drive. He does not overheat when working stock, but has gone down several times at agility trials, when the heat hasn't even been that bad. He can go forever in warm temps when working sheep, no problem. So, for him, it's the stimulus of the activity that makes a difference, not the temperature alone.

[2 Devils]

I agree that it is partly stimulus which I have intimated but not really said. The weather is not a huge factor. It has never happened in the winter time but again we don't play as much then. She can go awhile playing in the snow but the stimulus and her getting hyped up is totally different.

 

I even watch her in the pool. She loves water and gets very excited so I don't throw the ball for too long even though I think she would be ok. Again, the pool stimulus is different than straight out frisbee/ball on the ground.

 

She has had 2 more episodes since this original post so I am definitely watching her more closely now... no episodes in probably 5 weeks now. I must be doing something right.

[Diana A]

P.S. FWIW my understanding is that EIC and BCC are likely *not* interchangeable syndromes. The EIC found in Labradors is evidently a musculo-skeletal issue, whereas the hunch anyway with BCC is that it involves something more anxiety-pathway related. Sorry if this butchers it altogether, maybe someone can correct me/clarify this.

 

 

I was reading quite a bit on line a while back about the lab EIC syndrome. They had found the gene and determined the cause was actually neurological. The gene they found codes for a protein needed in the formation of the vesicles that are created to transport neurotransmittes acros the space between neurons (passing the nerve signal along). If that gene is defective, and a high demand is put in the dog's neurological pathway (lots of stimulus and activity = lots of neurons firing) the vesicle formation can't keep up with the demand and the neural signals simply aren't all getting through. I found mention that the condition did seem to get worse when the body was hot but didn't find an explanation for the mechanism of why that would be the case. They know so far that the border collie condition is not the same gene, but it's always possible it could be the same process breaking down just in a different place or due to a different protein important to that process. My first border collie had this problem.

 

http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/eicfaq/home.html

[topnotchdog]

They know so far that the border collie condition is not the same gene, but it's always possible it could be the same process breaking down just in a different place or due to a different protein important to that process.

 

Thanks, Diana, I suppose so, it will be interesting to see what they figure out. I just went to the UM BCC link and I noticed they are now describing BCC as an "episodic nervous system disorder." I'm posting the link because it also addresses another question from this thread: "How can I tell BCC from heat exhaustion / heat stroke?"

 

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickelson/lab/EIC/bordercollieEIC/home.html

 

B.

[rushdoggie]

Has anything new come up with this? I have a friend with a probably BC mix (she looks a lot like the old fashioned Beardies and has a lot of BC type behaviors) and she is upset thinking that her dog has this because she got very hot very quickly on the first warm day.

 

I honestly doubt that her dog has this (it was 80+ degrees yesterday after weeks of 50-65 and the sun was overhead, I think the pup just got hot) but I can't find anything that would help differentiate between a hot dog and a EIC dog. I'd like to help her feel better.

[2 Devils]

One of the key signs is a "quick" recovery with BCC compared to overheating. Many dogs will recover from a BCC episode within 10 minutes and act like nothing happened. With overheating recovery time could be hours.

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I've had a dog overheat on a 70-degree spring day while playing frisbee with lots of breaks in the shade. We were actually finished playing and had headed home when she collapsed, overheated. That was many years ago, and she was a bit sensitive to overheating for a few months after that, but it never happened again, and she will be turniing 15 in June.

 

I had a student who brought a dog out who was suspected to have BCC. After a short period of work, his temperature would spike. As an experiment, we also worked my youngster under the same conditions (same amount of time, in the round pen), and we discovered that my dog's temperature actually got higher than the BCC dog's temperature, but my dog's temperature also dropped back to normal very rapidly, while the BCC dog's did not. (They were both allowed to cool off in water.) This seems to contradict what 2Devils has said, but we actually took temperatures over several days, just out of curiosity.

 

At any rate, if it's BCC, I understand it would happen on a more regular basis, regardless of the outside temperature (i.e., even in winter).

 

J.