Jump to content
BC Boards

Recommended Posts

Journey,

I wasn't throwing ABCA under the bus(your words, not mine). I don't think that the man has always been mentally unstable; I think at first he "thought" he had a good money-making product, that turned into a tragic hoarding situation. I guess my question should have been worded "Why hadn't this guy been turned in and/or investigated by ABCA for his breeding practices before it came to this?".

 

 

 

The ABCA wouldn't have had any reason to have investigated this person unless someone had filed a complaint.

 

If someone registered a complaint, the ABCA could have investigated whether there was evidence that he was submitting false registration or keeping dogs in conditions that would make the keeping of proper breeding records impossible. If during such an investigation, evidence of mistreatment or neglect came to light, it would have been turned over to local authorities.

 

 

My guess is that until this recent event, this guy just flew under the radar, pretty much invisible. It sounds like even his family weren't aware of the extent of the problem, nor were his neighbors, so it's not surprising that the registry was unaware that there might be a problem. At this point we don't even know whether or not he was an ABCA member or was registering dogs with the ABCA regardless of what it said in his ads. That is something that can be checked however.

 

Pearse

 

Pearse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^Exactly. ABCA isn't a policing organization. If no one brought this man's operation to ABCA's attention, then they would have had no way of knowing about the situation. I suspect that unhappy puppy buyers wouldn't have a clue about the possibility of lodging complaints or who to lodge them with. If they're buying from a place like this, then clearly they're not exactly doing a lot of research to begin with and so aren't likely to do research after the fact to figure out how to complain effectively.

 

J.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that unhappy puppy buyers wouldn't have a clue about the possibility of lodging complaints or who to lodge them with. If they're buying from a place like this, then clearly they're not exactly doing a lot of research to begin with and so aren't likely to do research after the fact to figure out how to complain effectively.

 

J.

 

 

Isn't that how the MH and RS investigations got started? Disgruntled buyers turning to ABCA for help? I wouldn't underestimate the buying public just because they are buying from puppyfind. I would think they would still want their registration papers to validate their fine purchases.

 

I'm certainly not saying ABCA is at fault; but find it strange that as this guy's life deteriorated from a "Border Collie Breeder" to an "out of control Hoarder" that there weren't some red flags from the customers who bought his puppies. Maybe ABCA IS already looking into it. If not, shouldn't they be now just to confirm how many litters he registered, checking DNA against pedigrees before the "evidence" all gets sent out to rescues and/or adopted and there's no access to the DNA any longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of curiosity, would the ABCA not look into someone who was registering an obscene number of litters every year? I understand they are not a policing organization, but I am just generally curious if someone registering, say, 30 litters a year would not raise a red flag for them at all? Or does the organization just not get involved in that sort of thing?

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that how the MH and RS investigations got started? Disgruntled buyers turning to ABCA for help? I wouldn't underestimate the buying public just because they are buying from puppyfind. I would think they would still want their registration papers to validate their fine purchases.

 

I'm certainly not saying ABCA is at fault; but find it strange that as this guy's life deteriorated from a "Border Collie Breeder" to an "out of control Hoarder" that there weren't some red flags from the customers who bought his puppies. Maybe ABCA IS already looking into it. If not, shouldn't they be now just to confirm how many litters he registered, checking DNA against pedigrees before the "evidence" all gets sent out to rescues and/or adopted and there's no access to the DNA any longer.

 

 

If they are not at fault then why did you say they should contribute funds?

 

I really doubt this person registered dogs, it looks like a hoarding case, not a mass production. If there are pups from him out there in large quantities maybe you should write a letter to the ABCA Board (though board members are contributing to this thread) and see if they will do an investigation. His website is no where near the caliber of MAH or RS. I just did not get the impression when looking at it that he was mass producing for public consumption (hopefully I'm right).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm certainly not saying ABCA is at fault; but find it strange that as this guy's life deteriorated from a "Border Collie Breeder" to an "out of control Hoarder" that there weren't some red flags from the customers who bought his puppies.

 

The simple answer to this is that sometimes people complain about a breeder to the ABCA, which is indeed how MAH and RS came to be investigated, but such complaints are relatively infrequent. You need only read the rhapsodic testimonials on puppy millers' websites (including MAH's and RS's), as well as some of the threads on these Boards, to see how often the customers are very content with their purchases.

 

 

Maybe ABCA IS already looking into it. If not, shouldn't they be now just to confirm how many litters he registered, checking DNA against pedigrees before the "evidence" all gets sent out to rescues and/or adopted and there's no access to the DNA any longer.

 

If these dogs are rescued and adopted out, presumably they will be neutered, and so will not be producing offspring, so the accuracy of their DNA will not be in issue. Even if they are not neutered, from the facts we "know" now it appears that Rule 14 of ABCA's disciplinary rules is likely to come into play:

 

A conviction of cruelty, neglect or related offenses regarding dogs, or confiscation of dogs by lawful authorities and/or relinquishment of dogs to lawful authorities as a result of a charge of cruelty, neglect or other violation of laws regarding the care and treatment of dogs, shall be grounds for immediate suspension of membership and/or denial of membership. Dogs which have been confiscated in these circumstances and disposed of by lawful authority through sale or otherwise will ordinarily be de-registered, except where the dogs are returned to their owner as a result of his or her acquittal of the charges leading to the seizure. Any such denial or suspension of membership, and any such de-registration, may be appealed to the Board of Directors, which may if it deems necessary delegate the appeal to a Hearing Board for the taking of evidence and the making of recommendations. The decision of the Board of Directors on the appeal shall be final.

 

As for "checking DNA against pedigrees," how would you suggest the ABCA do that in this situation? Reportedly (and I say "reportedly" to remind people how little is truly known about what's going on here at this point), the owner is in a mental hospital. Dogs are in crates or running loose. The figure "200+ dogs" is being used, but we've seen in the past that estimates of the number of dogs involved in the early stages of a mass rescue are often inaccurate. Are we supposed to tell everyone involved to put things on hold so that we can send an investigative team to the scene to take DNA samples from dogs who may or may not be identifiable by anyone even by name and may or may not be registered with us? To check them against what?

 

Please don't overestimate the amount that a registry can do to deal with a situation like this.

 

Just out of curiosity, would the ABCA not look into someone who was registering an obscene number of litters every year? I understand they are not a policing organization, but I am just generally curious if someone registering, say, 30 litters a year would not raise a red flag for them at all? Or does the organization just not get involved in that sort of thing?

 

If your question is whether the ABCA has software or some other type of mechanism that would flag the name of a breeder who had registered in excess of a certain number of litters per year, the answer is no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, back to the dogs in need...

 

Sounds like the BC rescue community has really stepped up to help. Besides BCR of TX and AZ, I know of two other organizations that are working hard to help (below). I've heard, but can't confirm, that NEBCR and Glen Highland Farm are taking dogs, and maybe one of our FL rescues. I'm going to make a donation to one of the rescues involved. If anyone else would like to help, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

 

An update from Friends of Pep, whose founders are board members here:

 

We have 14 of the dogs safe and boarded in Ky ...will start for Pa tomorrow evening .

 

They were all heartworm negative yay .....and very thin ...the weights from the vet are 16 to 23 lbs with the average between 16 and 19 lbs .

 

The mama dog is sweet and friendly ...she is in a Ky home ...lying on a couch . Her photo is in an earlier post .

 

We have spent $2000. thus far on vetting and transport . And need to purchase their spay and neuter certificates ....they have all had dhpp...rabies...hw test ...wormed ...bordatella .

 

I am embarassed to say ...but anyone that can help a little it would be greatly appreciated ....we hardly ever have to ask ...we keep ourselves a float . God bless my retirement fund

 

Kate

Friends of Pep border Collie Rescue

 

pay pal..... [email protected]

 

And All Border Collie Rescue, based in Texas:

 

ABC rescue is getting 50 dogs tonight in the DFW area coming from Maion Humane Society. Yes, this is a legitimate rescue operation supported and assited by the family and the Humane Society. Thank you Deanne for receiving them and working out all the logistics. Laura from Marion Humane has been great and has helped us a ton in pulling and transporting dogs. NADAC has offered us a place to house them while we sort and get transport worked out.

We have taken the number of dogs that we have commitments for from reputible rescues and verified fosters which came from the painstaking list Karoline has kept up, thank you Karoline. We are still adding to that list and I am sure have extra dogs in the 50. So please all offers of help welcome.

I am going to Dallas tomorrow to transport 8 to the Houston area fosters we have set up and vaccinate and hw check and deworm and microchip everything we have time for. PA rescue contacted us and Karoline have them set up to go to Jefferson tomorrow taking back 12- 15 dogs, they are a great group that we have worked with in the past.

It is a huge effort with so many rescues from all across the country stepping up to help these poor scared dogs. Loads of individuals taking 1, 2 and 3 dogs have made a difference.

 

I wish I knew every single person that is helping so I could give them credit because this is surely taking a village, just know we thank you and so do the dogs!

 

Lesia

ABC Rescue

http://www.allbordercollierescue.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am always amazed by the border collie community and the border collie rescue community.

 

Thank you to all who donate their time and energy to help these poor dogs.

 

I donated what I could to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am always amazed by the border collie community and the border collie rescue community.

 

Thank you to all who donate their time and energy to help these poor dogs.

 

I donated what I could to help.

 

 

Here is a cool news story that shows our dogs getting ready to start their journey to Pa. Very cool even though our specific rescue wasnt mentioned.

 

http://www.ktbs.com/news/27453135/detail.html

 

I know everyone is saying that ABCA should be on top of these dogs but, MAH was a big advertiser of having Aled Owen's dogs. It could be he lost his registration rights to these dogs a while ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who are the "founders" of All Border Collie rescue? I ask as the site is somewhat similar NC's Border Collie Rescue, and they are both in the same county in Texas. Are they one in the same, or affiliated with each other?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy Crap. I think that one of my Border's grandfathers is one of the "Irish Imports" he so proudly advertises.

 

I believe a breeder down in Texas (Red Dawn?) proudly proclaims her dogs to be from his program. DISGUSTING. At least it looks like some of the dogs were well loved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who are the "founders" of All Border Collie rescue? I ask as the site is somewhat similar NC's Border Collie Rescue, and they are both in the same county in Texas. Are they one in the same, or affiliated with each other?

 

I don't think they're affiliated, but I don't know for certain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy Crap. I think that one of my Border's grandfathers is one of the "Irish Imports" he so proudly advertises.

 

 

 

I have no doubt that he was proud of those dogs when he started out.

 

People get sick, things become overwhelming,family may not know or may not want to intervene. People lose jobs, the economy tanks...

 

I wonder why there wasn't family intervention when things started getting out of hand?

 

 

I don't understand why now there's talk of charging him, when the family was told that wouldn't happen.

if it does, where does that leave the wife? as co-owner she could sign dogs away...so wouldn't that leave her open to charges?

 

 

 

"Working Border Collie" might ougt to pull Mr Wilson's name and info from the Breeder Listing....

 

 

it's all too easy to crucify him when we really aren't privy to the family dynamics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no doubt that he was proud of those dogs when he started out.

 

People get sick, things become overwhelming,family may not know or may not want to intervene. People lose jobs, the economy tanks...

 

 

it's all too easy to crucify him when we really aren't privy to the family dynamics.

 

 

Its true...I don't know him or his situation and I certainly don't mean to defend him, but he wouldn't be the first breeder to let things get out of hand, especially when dementia or other mental illness sets in.

 

My oldest Pap came via rescue, and he came from the home of a once well-respected, elderly breeder who slowly devloped dementia , and since no one lived with her the dogs she had started getting out of control, breeding among themselves and she ended up with 70+ dogs. She was with it enough to be embarrassed and hide it, but not so with it to fix it. They were all well fed, but her house was filthy, many were a little unsocialized and a few very unsocilized. Fortunatly, she had a lot of friends in the breed and when it came out what was happening, they quietly came in and "swept up the mess" so it didn't end up on TV and all teh dogs ended up in good homes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the link information, the family had the dogs for a month after the owner went into the hospital. Why would the ill owner immediately be condemned? Why didn't the family clean up the house or did they trash it? A lot of people think a BC not B/W with a rough coat is not a pure bred. Why were all the dogs in good condition? I am on a fairly remote ranch in New Mexico with my rescue BC and horses. Not a day goes by that I do not worry about what would happen to them if I dropped dead or was injured.

 

It's interesting that transport is being requested from Texas to Arizona. There is a whole state in between - New Mexico.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting that transport is being requested from Texas to Arizona. There is a whole state in between - New Mexico.

 

Why is that "interesting?" The local BC rescues could not deal with over 200 dogs to take in, not exactly shocking, as it's a lot of dogs. No rescue in New Mexico offered to take any in, but a rescue in Arizona did, hence the transport request. Are you just confused about how rescue works? Because otherwise, I fail to see what's so fascinating about helping dogs in need get to a rescue who can offer that help.

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... but a rescue in Arizona did, hence the transport request. Are you just confused about how rescue works?

The Arizona BCR covers parts of TX, NM, UT and even SoCal. We cooperate with other rescues to help cover these areas. My current foster dog, Pacco, came from a shelter in UT.With such a large number of dogs (about 180 alive, including numerous pregnant females) the dogs have been taken by rescues far afield. I am awed by the way the BCR network can handle a situation like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These dogs are not in great shape I posted that their sizes range from only 14 to 18 inches and they weigh under 20lbs all have ribs showing and they show signs of having to fight for food. None of the dogs we recieved is under 7 month so this didnt just happen his family did something with puppies. I dont beleive there were any 12 weekers or even 18 weekers found. I could be wrong. These dogs are headed to Pa and NY also 200 is too many for 20 rescues to handle.

 

Some of our dogs show that they were humanely trapped ont he paperwork. The one I'm calling "the gypsy" was caged his underside is nothing but knots and he never settled in a wire crate. He was better in an airline no pacing frantically. Other than not behaving agressively when caught he has no social skills.

 

We will never know what the truth is. What really happened at this place but, I will tell you it clearly didnt happen in the month he's been hospitalized.

 

attatched is a breeding age male.

post-5554-006835000 1302489153_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aww :( Some of those pups are Troy-boy cousins and 1/2 aunts and uncles! :( I thought someone else own Imp Sam and the boy work livestock? Did this guy actually import him or did he get him from someone else who imported him?

 

How are the dogs adjusting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any idea when they are expected back?

 

My understanding is that they are on their way down there now and will return Friday AM, unless plans have changed. I am taking one of the dogs to foster, as I noticed you are also, John -- saw your name on the list. Good luck to all of us!!

D'Elle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is that they are on their way down there now and will return Friday AM, unless plans have changed. I am taking one of the dogs to foster, as I noticed you are also, John -- saw your name on the list. Good luck to all of us!!

D'Elle

 

Plans have changed multiple times already, but yes Friday morning is what I have currently. Yes, I'm on the list and ready to take one. That means both my fosters will be from out of state (my foster boy, Pacco, came from Utah).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You both have to post pictures and keep us updated on their progress. DH and I would love to have fostered one, but considering we are expecting I think my dogs would have kicked me out of the house if we don't stop fostering before the baby comes. ;) I will be living vicariously through all of you wonderful folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We all hate to hear of this happening. I work in the veterinary industry and it really INFURIATES me when we hear of this especially when its the breed I love. I have spoke with a couple of the AZ BC Rescue people and my company is on board to try and help some of the dogs coming to Arizona. I love working for a company that actually cares about pets and helping those who can't help themselves. But even more than that, to those who rescue these wonderful animals...THANK YOU!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...