BEWARE

[brndlbc]

...... They lie and we don't use the word "liar." (She's just going through a tough time right now. This is her way of coping.) They cheat and we don't call them cheaters..... They manipulate to get their way. They lie and hurt others if it helps them.

 

That is interesting because if this girl (name withheld) was a professional athlete or famous celebrity, society in general wouldn't pass the same judgment as is being passed here. In a round about way, this girl is rewarded again by giving her attention, albeit negative attention, that isn't worth the time and effort. In the grand scheme of the original posting, she is probably nothing more than glorified kennel help anyway.....

[Journey]

Thank you Mary,

[ItsADogsLyfe]

While I can certainly have sympathy/empathy? for a young girl going through some rough times, I really don't think we here on a public message board are responsible for her choices. I remember that thread somewhat and I think her Father could have read the posts and perhaps had more of an impact on her decision making than us. She is an adult now and has made her own choices. If she lacked the proper guidance in her "real" life then that may have been the reason for her ultimate decision.

My son's best friend lost his Mother when he was a young teen. She had a long debilitating illness in which he and his Father had to take care of the Mother at home. Later on before he became an adult his Father's GF shot and killed his Father during a New Years eve celebration where kids were present, including my own. So this boy lost both parents before his 18th birthday. My then husband and I offered to let him live with us, but he declined. Now, 10 years later after putting himself through college and working full time to do it, is a firefighter, saving lives fighting forest fires. I'm very proud of him, and amazed with all he went through that he made the right decisions in his life.

I think people even young ones can make the right decisions if they want to. It helps to have people in your life that care about you and can guide you in the right direction, but if you are told right from wrong, even in a harsh manner and you can't see it and you make wrong decisions for your life, then the only one to blame is you.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I was the one who brought it to the attention of Eileen that Elise's mother had passed away.

 

When I talked to Elise (yes, I did take that time, like I stated in my last post) she had stated her mother had passed away recently. I believe she was dealing with it by filling that "void" with Border Collies and I can only guess that is how her father originally felt about it. She seemed interested in rescue, however that worked out, I do not know. I did not get any impression from her at that time through IM that she was still interested in breeding after the postings here.

 

BUT.

 

We know how fast the minds of teenagers change.

 

I think this whole thing would have worked out differently if Elise had came here for the approval of the working community in this breed and had any real interest in the Border Collie as a working dog but she didn't.

 

Just like you cannot change the views of someone who thinks Border Collies should be shown in the conformation ring, you will not change someones mind that believes it beneficial to breed these dogs for anything other then their working ability.

 

But maybe Elise did come here with interest in the Border Collie as a working dog but lost interest with the lack of titles, fancy names and cool colors. Maybe she did try herding but her dog wasn't cut for it because of lack of better breeding.

 

Just like any person that breeds their pet, they do it because they "love" them and want one just like them. And for some, it grows bigger then that.

 

It is clear that Elise has made her mind up, now being 18. There is no turning back time, what is done is done. She is her own person and had paths to choose for herself and she chose the path she is on.

 

There is always a easy way out and breeding Border Collies for anything other then working ability is the Border Collies owners easy way to breeding. This is why there are so many being bred for anything and everything but working ability.

 

And yes, the thread was closed when I made Eileen aware of Elise's mothers passing.

 

I do find it questionable though that it was stated Jake was neutered but now he is being used as a breeding dog. Is he really still intacted or is it just his pedigree?

 

Katelynn

[Eileen Stein]

I was the one who brought it to the attention of Eileen that Elise's mother had passed away. . . .

And yes, the thread was closed when I made Eileen aware of Elise's mothers passing.

Katelynn

 

Katelynn, my memory is not as good as it used to be, but I don't think this is correct. You and I did correspond privately about Elise, and I expressed gratitude to you for having private contact with her, but I believe her father or brother posted about her losing her mother when defending her, or it was on one of her web pages that people "detected." I've just looked back at my correspondence, and I see her father mentioned it to me in passing as if it was already a known thing ("We have had enough loss in our family with Elise's Mom, her cat, and then the puppy"), and I don't see any mention of it in your correspondence with me. I am totally sure learning about it wasn't the reason I closed either of the two closed threads linked here. I do know there were other threads about or involving Elise (I remember one disparaging her for the way she tried to train her dogs in agility, for example) which haven't been linked here and which I see no point in searching for. I may have deleted some of them anyway.

 

I suppose it doesn't really matter. None of the people badgering her seemed to care about the fact of her mother's death, any more than those posting now give it any importance (except for sea4th). In my perception, Elise -- a kid who had never bred a dog at that point -- was harassed mercilessly by several (certainly not all) posters here, much more so than any breeder has ever been. I gather that's a minority view, and that most people are content with how she was "taught a lesson." I wish I could share that contentment.

[nancyp]

 

 

I don't see how an internet chat board should be responsible for raising a child.

 

you have obviously NOT watched any of the news about CYBER BULLYING this is NO difference

[G. Festerling]

I need to add one more thing on my mind. When I made the post above it was on an ipod and I did not take the time to elaborate and it may have come across a bit more harsh than I intended it to. Frankly, I don't even remember if I posted on her threads in the past or not. This includes other boards.

I stand behind the old "know who you are playing with" sentiment.

But kids will be kids. And although I believe everyone needs to earn respect, a certain amount should be given simply because that is the right (humane) thing to do. Especially when the lines are so blurred now with the internet.

 

When I look back at my belief system and knowledge of 25 years ago....oh boy....I guess I got lucky no one decided to take me out behind the barn....

As of late I have been reminded of that a lot when I came into the role of mentor and my charges where kids (although a bit older than the Elise)in the high teens.

They will read, see, listen to whatever/whoever they are exposed to and what sounds right to them. Then, their mind is set and with that knowledge, they will go and try to start out on their own. The idea of listening to others, keeping an open mind, is a whole new part of their journey.

To this day, it is hard for me to forget the things my first sheepdog influence impressed on me. As it was, I was lucky that it also fit my personal style. But it could have gone the other way just as easily I suppose. And if it had, that would have meant about 15 years without this board or an invisible online community to try to "shape" my views. No easier to overcome, if I was not receptive, than being a kid that has its dreams and other stresses to deal with.

 

I still have to laugh when I think back at the time my helps mother came after me because I dared to take a big chunk of money out of her little darlings paycheck...this was after he ran into my house with the tractor and knocked a support beam askew! After having been camped on numerous times for driving to fast...

 

Edited to add that I pray that at some point in her life someone that she respects can be a good influence on her.

[Crawford Dogs]

As a teacher of kids this age, I think one of biggest harms we do to near-adults is prevent them from feeling the natural consequences of their actions. They lie and we don't use the word "liar." (She's just going through a tough time right now. This is her way of coping.) They cheat and we don't call them cheaters. (He's under so much pressure! He thought he had to get a perfect score, and this was the only way he knew how!)

 

 

I totally agree! I thought my run-in with "reputable" breeders (look up my story with a particular breeder at http://www.freewebs.com/bethiejean/pastdogs.htm) had been bad but this is far worse. I think that her behavior (and that of other breeders) indicates a lack of compassion and true understanding. If we don't call her out and make her responsible for her actions who will? Who will stand up for the dogs that are being bred repeatedly? The puppies that are sold to anyone with money, many of whom will end up in shelters and rescues? It makes me cry everytime I run into someone who puts their goals/profits,etc ahead of their animals and those who are affected by their actions. If one day one of my dogs is good enough (working ability, temperment, health checks) I'd love to breed ONE litter and keep one puppy. Obviously my wish to produce something that reflects what I'm looking for exists, but will I go from wanting to breed one litter to breeding hundreds? No way, no matter what/who I am influenced by the decision is mine and the responsibility is MINE.

[geonni banner]

A couple of thoughts:

 

The internet is like the bible. If you page around you can find people/verses that support just about any point of view. I am a "pre-Elise" Boards member, but my take on her story is this - you can get upset about what someone posts, and you can tell them "which hog et the cabbage," but if you do, you'd better at least attempt to be nice about it or they will simply go to a different page where people tell them what they want to hear. Then you have alienated them from you and your point of view. And that's a shame.

 

and,

 

When I was in my early 20's I was infatuated with rough Collies. I went to a breeder in Los Angeles to buy a puppy. She asked me a lot of questions. After hearing that I had a minuscule income, a room in a 3-bedroom flat, and a bunch of hippie roommates she refused to sell me a pup.

 

I was outraged. Couldn't she see how much I loved the puppies? Didn't she know that I wanted the best for my dog? Never mind that I had no real idea of what that best might be, (and would have probably ended up with a pregnant bitch if I had been sold a female pup.)

 

Now, at 58, I wouldn't sell a pup to the me that was, either. But at the time I didn't understand, and was under no compulsion to listen to anyone. I got a pup. He was a great dog. ( I paid $50.00 for him because he was not show material.) But I didn't get him neutered, and he in fact sired 3 litters on mixed-breed bitches, (not mine) and I had to part with him when he was 5. I couldn't pay my rent, and was homeless for a year.

 

I got my experience bit by bit. I'm sure that the Collie breeder explained why she wouldn't sell me a dog. But I didn't listen to her and don't remember what she said. Now I wish I could find her and thank her, on behalf of the pup I wanted, for not selling it to me.

[Liz P]

There is a difference between telling a child that lying is wrong and ganging up on one. I don't think we provided the best example of mature behavior.

 

I am not trying to blame anyone specific here. Back when this all started I didn't have the time or energy to speak with her. If I was trying to fault people I would have to include myself because I was on the BCBoards back then. Instead of placing blame, I hope to learn from that experience and others. I have finally reached a point in my life when I realize that some methods work better than others when it comes to convincing people that they might be making bad choices. Do I still fall back on some of my old habits and say rude things to people? Sure, it's the easy path, but I am trying to alter my approach.

 

I just don't think the way Elise was treated is the most effective method for dealing with teenagers, or adults for that matter.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[MyTDogs]

I was not here during the discussion in question and I don't really care to go hunting to find it....does anybody know if this person really exists? I mean how do you know she is/was a kid? Could she have been a 60 year old man getting his thrills pissing off a bunch of people in the internet? Did anybody see "Catfish"?

 

I am surprised that members of this board are being vilified for this "girl's" behavior. I don't want to hang out with kids or be responsible for their upbringing via the internet. I get that some people enjoy doing that but it is not for me.

 

I think the parents are responsible for the decisions of their children until they reach adulthood. Perhaps if her father had her volunteer at the humane society. There she might see the burden placed on shelter workers by irresponsible breeders in this country. She could see the many pets turned over each day & maybe even see the dogs that are picked to die because they have no home.

[jdarling]

Yes, she exists. There's even a quasi-profile about her on the mill website. And someone earlier mentioned that she's probably nothing more then a glorified kennel girl. You're right. The last kennel girl figured it out and is no longer there, owns a couple of speutered Border Collies and is not breeding. Hopefully, history will repeat itself.

[PennyT]

In the for what it's worth department, I think Elise was a con-person from the get go, even at 14, who was trying to make money on free border collies. She then became a few years older and discovered she could make more money in the long run by having a legal dog business and got herself a job to learn the ropes of being a puppy miller.