Pam Wolf Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Often things come across the net in a harsher manner than intended. Perhaps the tone of the postings were such as to steer this young person towards someone who was 'nice' which may have been saying the things she wanted to hear, but she ended up learning PM values instead of 'loftier' goals. I work alot with kids and the best way when dealing with them is to NOT confront them but to treat them with respect (something often lacking from threads such as this) and to get them thinking. I think her ideas could have been changed for the better and if someone approached her now (it is best in person) with some kindness instead of confrontation it might help. In no way do I condone the type of breeding this kennel is doing, but I think much of the fault lies here and I for one am willing to acknowledge this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 but I think much of the fault lies here and I for one am willing to acknowledge this. OMG...you're kidding aren't you? Here??? I guess I need to go look up what was really typed cause I sure don't see it or remember it that way. So your saying if we were nicer to her she'd have not ended up where she is? Really? Really? Just can't wrap my head around being so responsible for some kid over the internet. I don't work with kids, I have them, but that does make me be around them and work with them quite a bit. I've never been able to influence them with written words unless it was a to do list. But I will say being a parent has a much stronger tie than strangers on the net! Wish I had been kinder or more respectful to my son then, maybe he'd of turned out different. What do you think we could of done differently to make her see the light? What do you think we did that made her go into the dark of PMing? This conversation has nothing to do with changing her mind. I'm speaking mine, harsh? guess so but, so is the job she's doing. We either learn from our mistakes or are destined to repeat till we do. I just don't see how this conservation has much to do with what went on with her here a few years ago. Are we supposed to be treating each other with respect here now, or are you referring to back then? I don't see the disrespect that is so doG awful in this thread. calling a spade a spade is just that. Better crawl back in my hole, I think I am beginning to sound disrespectful.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 In no way do I condone the type of breeding this kennel is doing, but I think much of the fault lies here and I for one am willing to acknowledge this. I think that laying blame for her choice on this forum is a little far fetched. If this girl was dead set on becoming a Border Collie breeder, and it seems she was, I don't see what anyone here really could have done to change her mind. The answer here was never going to be, "well get yourself this dog and that dog and we'll support you". If she wasn't interested in getting into stockwork herself, and from what I recall that was not her interest, then the answer was always going to be "you shouldn't breed". No matter how nicely that was put, that was not the answer she was looking for and she didn't strike me as the type to really get on board with that. I get the impression that she was going to do what she was going to do and she was going to find support for what she wanted to do wherever she could. Could a good mentor that she could have worked with first hand have helped? Maybe. But can the motivation for her choice to work with this kind of puppy mill breeder really be attributed to discussions that she had here? I'd say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Here ya go ... count all the dogs! And listen to the others in the background. http://www.youtube.c...u/1/xdmE6b17ZWg They are in Pittsburg, Texas. I wonder what kind of dog limit laws there are there, and what it takes to get a kennel license or a conditional use permit or whatever that area requires ... and if this "kennel" is up to code. Real quick this morning I did some surfing, from what I found the state of Texas does not have any breeder licensing requirements, I think they are located in Camp County, I could not find any requirements there either. There is a bill that has been presented in Texas that may be passed that would require commercial breeders to secure a license, below is a link to a quick opinion on the bill along with why it is needed. But, I just recently read a rant from a pet breeder that is involved at the lobby level in Texas that there may be a licensing exception passed if this bill was to take effect for hunting, herding, service dogs, etc., which would probably also exempt this breeder, how does the state descern between a breeder that is breeding "herding" border collies vs. pet, sport or show border collies? If, the PUPS law, which has been reintroduced at the Federal level ever get's traction and passes, this breeder along with many others that are selling directly to the public via the web that currently are without oversight, may be subject to USDA regulation and inspection, for what ever that is worth. But it is subject to them either getting turned in or if they voluntarilly license. In the case of the breeder in this thread, even if they have to be licensed, more then likely they will still be able to operate unless their facility is unable to meet what ever the law imposes as minimum housing standards. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=132373630125374&topic=410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Elise Murphy threads for reference: WANTED -- FEMALE BORDER COLLIE DISTURBING EVIDENCE CHECK THIS OUT Pam, I don't see that you posted to any of those threads. What part did you play in tyring to change her ideas for the better when she was here? Or are you excluding yourself when you say that "much of the fault lies here"? I don't see how an internet chat board should be responsible for raising a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 DISTURBING EVIDENCE According to the second thread above, Jake, is altered. According to the the website, Jake (spelled differently), is now owned by the breeder and is a breeding dog? Isn't it hard to breed a dog that has been altered? Damn near impossible I think. Unless . . . Katelynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Katelynn, Weren't you defending her initially and talking to her through IM? Did she ever have anything to say about all this? Did she even consider what the people here had to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I don't believe I ever defended her from what I wrote. I did talk to her in a IM (once, maybe twice) and she was very insistent on the fact that she'd be spaying and neutering her dogs. We also talked about why a Border Collie should and should not be bred. I asked all the right questions and she gave the right answers. If I am correct, her mother had recently passed at the time and I chalked most of it up to being attention seeking behavior. Clearly, years later, that is not the case. So for anyone on this board who believes no one spent the time and effort to help this girl understand with a bit of compassion, you are very wrong. It is clear she did not want to hear what was being said and did not take any information that was openly offered to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I think Kristen and Kristine are exactly right on this one. It's difficult enough to truly influence someone in person, much less out in cyberspace. This didn't appear to be a situation of a child reaching out for help (say a child with serious problems that all of us failed to recognize or react to, with disastrous results), but rather a child who had some ideas about what she wanted to do, and folks here tried to talk her out of it. At some point her father stepped in and claimed it was all fantasy (attention seeking) and was never going to happen. I honestly fail to see what more anyone here could have done. In my years on this forum and others one thing I have learned is that you can't change anyone's mind if that person isn't open to having their mind changed. This was one such case. Of course, nothing is stopping YOU Pam from reaching out to this girl now and trying to mentor her from afar. That would probably be more productive than accusing the members of this board of somehow failing this child (now young adult?). Kristen, I have to admit that my reaction was much the same as yours. So you're not alone there. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I think that laying blame for her choice on this forum is a little far fetched. If this girl was dead set on becoming a Border Collie breeder, and it seems she was, I don't see what anyone here really could have done to change her mind. The answer here was never going to be, "well get yourself this dog and that dog and we'll support you". If she wasn't interested in getting into stockwork herself, and from what I recall that was not her interest, then the answer was always going to be "you shouldn't breed". No matter how nicely that was put, that was not the answer she was looking for and she didn't strike me as the type to really get on board with that. I get the impression that she was going to do what she was going to do and she was going to find support for what she wanted to do wherever she could. Could a good mentor that she could have worked with first hand have helped? Maybe. But can the motivation for her choice to work with this kind of puppy mill breeder really be attributed to discussions that she had here? I'd say no. Yes, this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Weren't this kid's 15 minutes of fame up a couple of years ago? Move on and stop giving her the satisfaction of being the subject of conversation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd's Mom Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Wowsa! She certainly hasn't gotten any smarter on any fronts... here is a fairly recent post of hers I found on yahoo answers http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110301165339AAUI4Kl I feel so bad for her poor dogs! On a side note, that breeder site specifically says that they purchased Jakob from Elise and she is a part of their operation at this point. So what she said in the past was so obviously just what she thought you guys wanted to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Or was Jake actually neutered and still producing puppies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 If THAT's the discussion board she's hanging out on, no wonder why she chose that breeder to go live with! Check out THIS thread, especially the advice the OP was getting. Them people are smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 I'm pretty sure this kid has also represented herself as a rescue. 2 years ago we had an ugly letter writing issue as she wanted a dog we already took and vetted in the Ga area. We were accused by dad of stealing it out from under his truely gifted and special daughter. We stood fast despite the harassment and name calling. I believe he also had to place her dogs that werent fit to go to the PM when she left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Teenagers notoriously know everything. They are not known to take criticism well. Especially not from adults and if it is at all confrontational. Heck I know plenty of adults that this applies to. She came to play with adults so to me she should have expected it. Tell them they are wrong in their believes and they seem to be even more prone to act on it. I will admit, I sure was hoping back then that it was just a kid talking and that she would not go down the wrong road. Asides from that, she has tons of learning to do. The best thing anyone could hope for is that at some point she gets it. Some, sadly, never do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 She came to play with adults so to me she should have expected it. I totally agree and have no sympathy/empathy for this brat who's technically an adult now. So she came here and got her drawers all in a twist with what was said to her on these boards. Daddy came to her rescue. So now she's chosen to play in a seedier world of adults --- puppy millers and profiteers, her guides and counselors. With the money she's probably making, I doubt that she'll ever consider either 1. the dogs or 2. that what she's doing contributes to a problem. Her world is small and centered around herself. She can't see beyond it. A lot of adults can't either, so I can't blame her youth. I hope that maybe someday, years down the road, I'll turn on Animal Cops on Animal Planet one day and see a bust of some puppy farm run by a frowsy-haired, toothless old hag dressed in a muu muu and socks and sandals, who's screaming at the camera crew and it will be her, this once was know-it-all snotty teenager who left in a huff with her drawers in a bunch because she didn't like what was said to her. Yeh. No sympathy here. Just disdain. Lot of sympathy for the animals she's exploiting for her own profit. But then, that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 The way Elise was treated here has been on my conscience for a long time. When she came here she was 14 years old, had recently lost her mother after a painful illness, was living with a father who seemed--and probably was--overwhelmed. It soon became apparent that she was emotionally fragile, was very focused on rescuing, training and breeding dogs, and was writing more from her imagination and longings than from reality. On these Boards she was repeatedly accused of being a LIAR, actually an adult puppy miller with the basest of motives, etc. and scorn was heaped on her. On at least two separate occasions she was charged with having bred puppies when she had not (true, the charges were based on false postings she'd made elsewhere, but by this time it was pretty obvious that the girl had an active fantasy life). The last post (above) is a good example of the tone of much that was said to her. Her father came on and defended her, as did her brother. Her father said she had not bred dogs (apparently true), had rescued and placed dogs (apparently true), and was not going to be allowed to breed (apparently true at the time). I am sure she came away from her treatment here much more determined to do what everyone was badgering and berating her for. I agree with those few who feel an opportunity was lost here. She has now been drawn into the orbit of a real puppy miller. I don't think responsibility for that can be pinned on us, but I don't think it was inevitable either. Looking at what happened here, I wish we had kept in mind the skills and approaches we've learned as dog trainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 At what point was it made known that she had lost her mom? That puts a different spin on it, doesn't it. Was all of this berating of her going on after it was known what the family had gone through? If that's the case, then she was basically driven into more sympathetic, albeit seedy arms. Then it's just wrong on so many levels. I'm not exactly a candidate for the Mother Teresa humanitarian award, but even I would not "kick" a person that's already hurting. Sounds like an opportunity was lost here. All I can say is a wish her and her family well in their emotional growth, but not in the puppy farming business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Flaming is allowed...sometimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Wow. WTF? Anyway, I'm not buying into the "poor, misunderstood Elise" bit. Sorry. I think there is a lot more to the story than we realize. Obviously I don't know that for sure, so I'll leave it at that. However, in any case, I don't believe anyone on this board bears any responsibility for where she ended up. That's not on us, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Flaming is allowed...sometimes? No, flaming is not allowed, and I have removed the post you were referring to, and the response which quotes it. As for when it became known that Elise had lost her mom, I can't be sure exactly without doing a search, but as I remember it was fairly early on and I clearly recall a lot of pretty harsh stuff being said after that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 I think the other thing at issue is that they really werent nice people to deal with (their emails were rude and they had other people email us stating the same) they all but, demanded we give her the dog which since we are in Pa. didnt steal. It never become clear that she really was placing dogs although she called herself a rescue we "denied her (the deaf) dog of her dreams" she had 16 dogs possibly more and she was only 16. You could feel sorry for her except they weren't fine upstanding citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I dunno. Seems to me that a very important lesson you have to learn growing up is that when you misrepresent yourself (and this girl did, A LOT!), you earn consequences that go with those actions. Seems to me the worst consequence she earned here was having her misrepresentations pointed out. She was LYING. This made her a LIAR. We can call it something else - truthfully challenged? - but that doesn't change the facts. As a teacher of kids this age, I think one of biggest harms we do to near-adults is prevent them from feeling the natural consequences of their actions. They lie and we don't use the word "liar." (She's just going through a tough time right now. This is her way of coping.) They cheat and we don't call them cheaters. (He's under so much pressure! He thought he had to get a perfect score, and this was the only way he knew how!) And I gotta say, I see great, wonderful, amazing kids every day, even ones who are going through incredibly tough times. But among these kids, who represent the human spectrum, are the ones who don't seem great, wonderful, or amazing. They manipulate to get their way. They lie and hurt others if it helps them. Their age protects them from real consequences for another couple years, and then when the parental filter is removed, they walk into their own toxic cloud of problems. I'd say this kid took a step into the shallow water of Internet misrepresentation, saw that lying and playing games on the 'net could get her into trouble, and hopped out quickly - without ever having to feel any real pain or damage. She got scolded by some anti-pupppy-millers who called her out and pointed out the inconsistencies in her stories. Pretty soft consequences, I'd say, and a nice, tidy lesson for this girl to take with her through life. I'd be a lot more worried if we had all chosen to pretend adolescents are unable to make ethical choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 GREAT post, Mary! Especially nice to hear the perspective of someone involved with kids that age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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