Red Border Collie Litters?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms. Ejano asks:

Does the way the sheep react to a particular dog depend their familiarity with the type with which they have been worked or is it something more ingrained in the sheep?

 

Sheep are very good at predator calculus and their reaction varies dog to dog. The dog's experience has a huge role: when I must bring in ewes with two-week old lambs less experienced dogs (AKA Loose cannons) often have more power than better dogs who have found their method. Some dogs are said to be "kind to their sheep" or "the sheep like them" and such a dog is a pearl.

 

Many elements combine in the sheep predator calculus, some (like smell) humans can't read. For my part, I suspect, that mostly black coat is a threat color and that dogs like Kate Broadbent's 3 legged Dex got extra power from moving sheep-weirdly.

 

Donald McCaig

[Gloria Atwater]

Gloria, I AM NOT imcluding you in the nasty poster comment, your response was awesome and informative . thanks

 

 

I understood, and thank you. I try hard to be kind and diplomatic at all times, because I'm still way down the learning curve, myself. Just because I have opinions doesn't mean I know anything.

Regards,

 

Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

See her yellow beady eyes! Meet Miss Jesse!

 

 

 

 

She's adorable!

 

And I have my own pair of demonic yellow eyes, here, so I know the feeling.

 

~ Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

As far as color is concerned, I would say yes, it's definitely based on familiarity. Sheep stare at a white dog (for example) at the lift because they haven't met up with one before and are puzzled by it at first. They're not sure what it means for them. If the dog has confidence and push, they usually move away from it and react to it as they would any other dog as the run goes on. Sheep who are regularly worked by white dogs don't have that initial puzzled (or challenging) reaction.

As someone who is running a white dog in open, I have to say that I have not particularly noticed sheep that aren't familiar with him standing up to him any more than any other dog (I say this from watching a lot of lifts while setting out (with the white dog, no less). I've had judges tell me what a nice looking dog he is (he's beautifully built), and I don't feel like I've ever been judged more harshly because he's a nonstandard color.

 

In fact, at trials where less dogged sheep are run (e.g., Donald McCaig's trial), I have had no trouble moving those sheep with my white dog, although plenty of competing dogs have had trouble moving them. I keep hearing that sheep will look at a white dog more, and maybe it's just that my white dog has a normal black mask on his face, but I can think of only one instance where a sheep has turned on him, and that was at a trial where I was also setting sheep, so it was a bit odd, since he had been handling the sheep all day without incident.

 

More typically, I have handlers telling me that their dog (if it was having trouble walking onto the sheep at the lift and was instead flanking because the sheep wouldn't move) thought my dog was a sheep, though honestly I have a hard time understanding that, given a dog's keen sense of smell....

 

I've noted before that red dogs are hard to see. I've lost sight of Kat (the red tri), for example, at the top at Edgeworth where she was some 600 yards away, whereas Pip in the same location was a shining beacon of whiteness. Where I've moved to now, when we walk in the pine forest, the red dogs pretty much disappear in the pine needles. The white dog is visible pretty much all the time, the one exception being when the fog came down during my run at Rural Hill on the drive away, and then Pip sort of blended right into the fog (since his backside was facing me).

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Julie, reading this I realize I should have said, "IF sheep stare at a white dog . . . ." I generally pay attention to white dogs at trials, because my first dog was mostly white (also with a black mask) and several mostly white dogs are run by friends of mine, and because I've heard this stereotype many times. I too don't feel I've seen white dogs being stood up to by the sheep more than other dogs. Any occasional reaction by the sheep that I've personally seen has only lasted for a few seconds, and has not appeared to play any part in the course of the run.

[juliepoudrier]

This isn't the best photo example, but you can see how a red dog might blend in to yellow/brown grass. This photo was shot relatively close (she was leaving on her outrun), so you can imagine how she might fade into the background at a distance.

 

 

Contrast it with this, the white just pops out at you:

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Do you think the white/red/merle bias is somewhat tied to a general bias we (humans) have toward confirming our own stereotypes so that handlers who believe that sheep react differently to white or red or merle dogs also notice when dogs of those persuasions have trouble and then explain the trouble as tied to their color while at the same time not remembering or "seeing" dogs of those persuasions who do no differently than the "traditional" types?

 

I have heard this reported so many times but I've never had anyone be able to point to a concrete example (i.e. an actual dog) where it was demonstrably true (and I've asked frequently).

[Liz P]

I owned 2 red dogs. Neither ever had trouble with sheep being confused for even a moment, but they were both powerful, stylish dogs who commanded authority. I would think that if it moves like a Border Collie the sheep will respond to it.

 

On the other side of the coin, I have had Border Collies bend out to tuck the LGD into the flock, only realizing what it was as they got closer.

[Olivia]

Neither my red and white girl or the red merle have any problems with the sheep recognizing them and moving off as told. They are both very nice, calm and kind to their sheep and while the merle has mostly worked sheep that are familiar with dogs, the red dog has worked sheep that have only seen a dog once or twice before.

 

I've worked both at all times during the year and never had a problem seeing them out in the field. In the fall with very high dead grass the merle is a little harder to see but I would think that a mostly white dog would be harder to see in the winter in the snow.

 

I guess, in my very humble experience, I've just never seen a difference in the red, merle and black dogs in how the sheep see them. It looks to me that the sheep are reacting to their attitude and presence, not color.

[MrSnappy]

Another gentleman at the trial told me that in Scotland (where he was originally from) they used to cull the merle's because merle's can't herd (how long ago that was I have no idea).

 

How can you cull merles? Isn't merle dominant? You can only get merles if you breed merles (to each other, or to something else) so it's not like they would randomly pop up in a litter like a recessive (ie red) would. So if someone says they cull merles that appear in their litters, you would wonder why they bred their dog to a merle to get merle puppies in the first place, which would be especially strange thing to do if merle dogs "can't herd."

 

Besides, everyone knows that a dog will only work if it has black on the roof of its mouth. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that particular myth.

 

RDM

[Gloria Atwater]

........I've noted before that red dogs are hard to see. I've lost sight of Kat (the red tri), for example, at the top at Edgeworth where she was some 600 yards away, whereas Pip in the same location was a shining beacon of whiteness. Where I've moved to now, when we walk in the pine forest, the red dogs pretty much disappear in the pine needles. ..

 

 

Out here in the high-desert country, a red dog might be well nigh invisible. If there's no green to be had ... there's very little to set off a red coat.

 

Which means nothing, except that if more trials ran on arid and/or sagebrushy fields, more handlers of red dogs might be squinting to find their dogs.

 

~ Gloria

[Eileen Stein]

Do you think the white/red/merle bias is somewhat tied to a general bias we (humans) have toward confirming our own stereotypes so that handlers who believe that sheep react differently to white or red or merle dogs also notice when dogs of those persuasions have trouble and then explain the trouble as tied to their color while at the same time not remembering or "seeing" dogs of those persuasions who do no differently than the "traditional" types?

 

Exactly -- that's just what I think.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Kim L wrote, "Another gentleman at the trial told me that in Scotland (where he was originally from) they used to cull the merle's because merle's can't herd (how long ago that was I have no idea)."

 

I knew a sheep producer here in Maryland (USA) who would cull any Border Collie pups that weren't black and white, and this was in the mid 1980s. He told me that he would destroy any white or red puppies born on his farm, because "good" Border Collies were only black and white.

 

Regards,

nancy

[ejano]

Out here in the high-desert country, a red dog might be well nigh invisible. If there's no green to be had ... there's very little to set off a red coat.

 

Which means nothing, except that if more trials ran on arid and/or sagebrushy fields, more handlers of red dogs might be squinting to find their dogs.

 

~ Gloria

 

Robin has quite a bit of white so he's fairly easy to spot when the fields are brown in winter and in the late spring, but in the fall, here in the Northeast, he's in "camo" as autumn is his color...but oh, he looks pretty running across the near field in the summer... . Yet, even in the snow, Brodie is the easiest to spot - easier even than the more traditionally marked Ladybug, though he has a greater amount of white - he just seems to stand out. He has a nice black saddle on his back - and a dark face. If the dogs disappear, he's the one I look for first...

 

[ejano]

Good question. Method describe the way a particular dog works sheep, but when considering how a sheep reacts to a dog, instinctively vs. familiarity, I would say "it depends". It is well known amongst handlers that there is a home court advantage; that is, that sheep recognize certain dogs and react more comfortably with them. That is why most whom host trials refuse to run in them. I suppose that if you had a dog of any sort of color, that moved your own flock with respect and confidence, that you would have no problem at home. But when trialing on different flocks of various breeds and experiences, some not even dogged at all, then the way a sheep reacts instinctively would be the safest generalization.

 

Do different breeds react differently -- outside of the obvious differences between the primitives (i.e Shetlands) and the more domesticated breeds? We're establishing a small flock with Clun Forest x Tunis, mainly because that is what is available to us -- we know they're healthy, well bred, local sheep that are from good breeding stock. Their main purpose will be to graze the old orchard and the slope leading down into it. An easy life. Lots of good grass.

[Gloria Atwater]

Your Brodie is such a handsome rascal!

 

And I love the rare times I get to see my dogs against GREEN. It makes my fur-kids look so photogenic!

 

~ Gloria

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Sheep see Roo just fine...we worked sheep and cattle at a sheep/cattle ranch in central Oregon late this fall. The range ewes never saw a red dog before but they sure respected him. This was taken with my 400 zoom lens (by a person who was closer to the sheep than me) and I was about 1/3 plus mile away...he went on a blind outrun to the top of this ridge, got the sheep and then I had him drive them around the lake. Along the way, he scooped up some cattle that were in a gully as an added bonus.

 

 

 

Roo did an excellent job working at this ranch. It was the work that week we spent there that we finally connected as a team and every since, we have done well together...it took a week of hard ranch work with Roo to settle him down. He is definitely a real working dog than a hobby dog. His parents came from working cattle ranches in Alberta, Canada.

 

Nan also worked the range ewes but she made sure she didn't bring any cattle back. She left those for Roo!!

 

Lucy is also a red dog (I just recently sold her) and she never had an issue wtih sheep not respecting her. She goes in with attitude.

 

I have yet to tell Roo that sheep don't respect a red dog. I am sure he will be stunned to hear of this!

[ejano]

Your Brodie is such a handsome rascal!

 

And I love the rare times I get to see my dogs against GREEN. It makes my fur-kids look so photogenic!

 

~ Gloria

Thanks -- he's a very good boy and DH's best bud. He loves sheep. Say the word and he smiles. When we turn the corner to onto the road toward the farm where we go for lessons you can hear his tail thumping against the crate and he starts to sing. He's very eager to work and to please me and the sheep seemed to respect him - and he's much easier to work with than Master Robin at the moment (we're still working out whose running the railroad). I have some aspriation that Brodie and I might make it to a small novice trial by the end of summer, but it will depend on how many lessons/practice we can fit in.

 

Liz

[nancy in AZ]

So do sheep see the full color spectrum or only a range within certain colors? Anyone know?

[Sue R]

I'm thinking about coyotes - they are a color/pattern that must blend in with their background to be effective for them. A reddish/tawny/grayish color with off-white/beige trim. So, would a lighter-colored Border Collie (like some of the candy colors or merles) be somewhat camo-colored or camo-patterned to the sheep? Just a thought.

 

However, I think more important than any coloration/pattern would be presence. Once the stock are aware of a dog with presence (power, confidence, instinct), I doubt that color or pattern would count for anything. After all, a coyote is colored to blend into the environment and not be noticeable to potential prey - but once the sheep know that the coyote is there, color becomes immaterial compared to what the sheep perceive as a threat.

 

Then again, one can wonder whether or not the stereotypes against certain colors and patterns might have any basis in fact. I certainly don't know.

[huskerdog (liz)]

Sheep see Roo just fine...we worked sheep and cattle at a sheep/cattle ranch in central Oregon late this fall. The range ewes never saw a red dog before but they sure respected him. This was taken with my 400 zoom lens (by a person who was closer to the sheep than me) and I was about 1/3 plus mile away...he went on a blind outrun to the top of this ridge, got the sheep and then I had him drive them around the lake. Along the way, he scooped up some cattle that were in a gully as an added bonus.

 

 

 

Roo did an excellent job working at this ranch. It was the work that week we spent there that we finally connected as a team and every since, we have done well together...it took a week of hard ranch work with Roo to settle him down. He is definitely a real working dog than a hobby dog. His parents came from working cattle ranches in Alberta, Canada.

 

Nan also worked the range ewes but she made sure she didn't bring any cattle back. She left those for Roo!!

 

Lucy is also a red dog (I just recently sold her) and she never had an issue wtih sheep not respecting her. She goes in with attitude.

 

I have yet to tell Roo that sheep don't respect a red dog. I am sure he will be stunned to hear of this!

 

Just goes to show that color doesn't determine working ability.

Great picture BTW!

[urge to herd]

However, I think more important than any coloration/pattern would be presence. Once the stock are aware of a dog with presence (power, confidence, instinct), I doubt that color or pattern would count for anything. After all, a coyote is colored to blend into the environment and not be noticeable to potential prey - but once the sheep know that the coyote is there, color becomes immaterial compared to what the sheep perceive as a threat.

 

 

Hmmm. I wonder if movement or change in the environment might not be more important to prey animals than coloration. I know, from repeated experience that my dogs will 'lose' me visually if I stay perfectly still. And prey animals might be thinking, "You know, there's a big gray spot right there that wasn't there a minute ago."

 

I don't know what colors sheep see, but would be interested in what you all think about the movement/environmental change factor.

 

Ruth

[Five Star Trip]

Thanks everyone for the advice and input. I don't want anyone to think that I would just blindly get a red puppy from working parents just because of color. I have other criteria as well. I know I may end up with a puppy that isn't red if the situation presents itself and the perfect puppy comes along, and that is okay with me too. But I figure it doesn't hurt to look

 

Did you ever find a puppy?

[PiperNY]

Did you ever find a puppy?

 

I did! He isn't red, but he is an amazing worker and very handsome