Susan Garrett's border collies

[MyTDogs]

If you expect them to be mind readers and to know your mind in particular, they are bound to disappoint you.

 

I'm not one to take the side of gurus, and I'm not really saying that I am in this case. But simply claiming that they "should know" does not in some way render them fully aware of everything you expect them to be aware of. The fact that they are gurus does not actually mean they know everything about everything.

 

Not sure why you & Rave are giving me credit for these ideas?? This is not new as she's pointed out. I got my first dog, a rescued Border Collie, in 1999. Even with all I didn't know, I knew that there was a Border Collie war with AKC (and CKC too). Anyone involved with Border Collies has heard of it, except perhaps those strictly pet owners who don't register their dogs or compete in some kind of activity requiring registration (agility is not one of those).

 

When one puts oneself out there as an expert then ethically they should be educated on the issues. As Laurae said, the plight of the Working Border Collie is the plight of their Border Collie too.

 

Since I can't force them to support my cause & agree with my opinions I think the best option is to cut the cord. They can have their Sporter Collies (or whatever) and the conformation people can have their Barbie Collies and we can keep the Working Border Collie. The breeders of others should not be permitted to ride on the coattails of the working bred dog, nor drag it down with them.

[Root Beer]

Not sure why you & Rave are giving me credit for these ideas?? This is not new as she's pointed out. I got my first dog, a rescued Border Collie, in 1999. Even with all I didn't know, I knew that there was a Border Collie war with AKC (and CKC too). Anyone involved with Border Collies has heard of it, except perhaps those strictly pet owners who don't register their dogs or compete in some kind of activity requiring registration (agility is not one of those).

 

I never gave you credit for that, believe me.

 

When I got my first Border Collie, I did not know anything about any of it. Nothing. I know for one reason and one reason only - this board. That's it. If I were not an internet addict, I probably wouldn't be aware of any of this myself.

 

I suppose that is why the idea that even a guru may well not have all of this information does not strike me as so utterly impossible. Especially one who is very much invested in a different dog culture.

 

So, unless you expect that everyone and anyone that owns a Border Collie reads this board or personally knows someone who does stockwork, you make quite a sweeping assumption. And most Border Collie owners that I have mentioned this board to have never even heard of it.

[Pippin's person]

Kristen's point about different dog cultures highlights something that I've been thinking about for a while, and in fact, is what has led me to be much more persuaded about the problems of dual registration. So, I'm just going to throw this out there (and maybe this should be a different thread, but this thread has gone in this direction)

 

Thinking of "culture" as a broad set of practices and beliefs, it seems to me from talking with lots of people involved in different kinds of activities with Border Collies, that Agility as a cultural context is actually much closer to KC conformation culture than it might seem at first glance, and at some level that's part of what inhibits the kind of cross-pollination (like buying puppies from working breeders) that many folks in this thread (and countless others) have talked about. This is mostly cross-cultural contact even though that is masked by the fact that we are all talking about "Border Collies."

 

That said, I don't see that cultural relationship as evil, nor do I intend to set up "Agility" as the new "Conformation" (and I think RDM's point on that is well placed). I do think it speaks to the likelihood that the kinds of dogs being produced in the two cultural contexts will continue to become more and more distinct from one another, which will over time likely force the issue of dual registration to come up again for the ABCA.

 

This isn't really surprising given the historical and social context out of which Agility arose--which was out of KC Conformation culture as I understand it. It's shifted a lot since then and certainly many Agility handlers speak as strongly against conformation-based breeding as do Working handlers.

 

But it's kind of like the ways languages are related to one another. English is quite different from German but still retains many signs of its earlier, historical relationship to German. And, English is a lot more like German than it is like Gaelic. (in this analogy, "Agility" is to "Working" as "English" is to "Gaelic")

 

This cultural relationship to KC conformation culture is evident in many different practices, the most predominant of which seems to be a belief that breeding a "Border Collie"--even if being purpose-bred for agility rather than the breed ring--is still based fundamentally on a particular phenotype--a look--and with that seems to come the assumption that the underlying link to livestock will remain intact--even if the breeder has no interest in breeding to highlight that link. As Rave pointed out, Agility breeders don't really care about the qualities that Working breeders do nor would they look for those qualities in a dog to add to their program. But, they still want a Border Collie and believe that's what they are getting/producing because it looks like a Border Collie in some way.

 

Just anecdotally (and I know others have had this experience), I can't begin to count the number of times I've asked someone with a Border Collie whether they have seen the dog on livestock and received a version of the answer "Well, she's a Border Collie and I'm sure she'd be great if I had the time/money/inclination/knowledge/X to pursue it"

 

Other cultural practices that support my observation (admittedly these are pretty anecdotal): The most vehement protesters of the breeding practices among Flyball enthusiasts have come from people I know in Agility, particularly as regards the purposeful breeding of "mixes"; Many discussions with well respected, excellent, world-team type handlers about their own participation at some point in time in the conformation ring; Many discussions about how the conformation standard, even though often taken to an extreme, is meant to capture something about the function the dog should perform.

 

There are plenty of practices that would be opposed to that culture as well--but that's less my point.

 

I'm curious if others would agree with my assessment.

[PSmitty]

When I got my first Border Collie, I did not know anything about any of it. Nothing. I know for one reason and one reason only - this board. That's it. If I were not an internet addict, I probably wouldn't be aware of any of this myself.

 

Me, too.

 

I suppose that is why the idea that even a guru may well not have all of this information does not strike me as so utterly impossible. Especially one who is very much invested in a different dog culture.

 

So, unless you expect that everyone and anyone that owns a Border Collie reads this board or personally knows someone who does stockwork, you make quite a sweeping assumption. And most Border Collie owners that I have mentioned this board to have never even heard of it.

 

Yes to this, too. I can just about guarantee that most of the Border Collie owners I know casually through agility and flyball know nothing of it, it's just not the world they come from. I'm not making excuses for them, but it is what it is. The answer? I guess it's education and having working breeders willing to sell to sport only homes?

[bcnewe2]

What big hat won't sell to sport people? I can see them wanting a few of the litter to go on to working homes so they can see the progress of their breeding plan, but I really can't see most "normal" bighats, not selling a dog to someone they know will take care of and enjoy their pup. Maybe some kind of non breeding contract but then again, I don't see that much around here. If you got the bucks, you get the dog. At least that's been my experience.

[PSmitty]

Good post, Robin. I would agree with your assessment.

 

Kristen, I'm sure there are working breeders who are willing to sell to sport homes, I know of at least one, only because I know the offspring. But I also think there are plenty who won't, or maybe I'm wrong? SS Cressa asked in another thread if she would be able to find a good working breeder who would sell to her, knowing she does AKC agility. I used to wonder also, since I participate in it, too. I realize now that I'll never buy a dog from a breeder, so it's a moot point for me, but still a good question. I guess the answer is "it depends"? There's bound to be someone who will.

[SecretBC]

It's really an uphill battle that I do not see an easy answer to -- There are THOUSANDS of Border Collies participating in agility throughout the world. Thousands. As has been mentioned time & time again, the world of working bred BC is dwindling for whatever reason. There comes a point when the working breeders cannot or will not meet the demand, which is where the sport breeders jump in to fill the void. If someone wants a BC with a known history (ie: not a rescue), where are they to go?

 

And ultimately, a lot of people who do sports don't know or care about the divide -- We don't sit around and talk about sheep at agility trials.

 

I think it was Root Beer who said it best earlier -- If people want to keep the working lines alive & thriving, they are going to have to reach out to the sporting community and make themselves known. I just don't see that happening. Working breeders truly do seem as anti-sport as sport people are against conformation lines.

[Pippin's person]

It's really an uphill battle that I do not see an easy answer to -- There are THOUSANDS of Border Collies participating in agility throughout the world. Thousands. As has been mentioned time & time again, the world of working bred BC is dwindling for whatever reason. There comes a point when the working breeders cannot or will not meet the demand, which is where the sport breeders jump in to fill the void. If someone wants a BC with a known history (ie: not a rescue), where are they to go?

 

And ultimately, a lot of people who do sports don't know or care about the divide -- We don't sit around and talk about sheep at agility trials.

 

I think it was Root Beer who said it best earlier -- If people want to keep the working lines alive & thriving, they are going to have to reach out to the sporting community and make themselves known. I just don't see that happening. Working breeders truly do seem as anti-sport as sport people are against conformation lines.

 

Actually, I think it's rather the opposite. I think people on all sides need to recognize that there is a split occurring that will eventually be as definitive as the split between other, conventionally recognized "breeds" such as Aussies and Border Collies and that fact will become increasingly important for the ABCA and the matter of dual registration. It's also not necessarily true that the working bred dog is dwindling--it's more that proportion of working-bred to bred-for-some-other reason is shifting--a different issue altogether. Also, entirely untrue that working breeders are anti-sport (in my experience) as much as anti-AKC (and even that varies). Generally against breeding for something other than working ability, yes, against that. Just as Agility folks seem to be against breeding for working ability.

[D'Elle]

 

For the most part, working breeders aren't prepared to give sport people what they want. Yes I'm generalizing a bit here, but the needs of the true working breeder and the sports person are quite different.

 

I know that I am basically ignorant, but I wonder what I am missing, here. I don't understand what is so different. Why would a working-bred border collie not be great for sports? My understanding of a good working bred dog is that the dog is athletic, strong, fast, has good endurance and sound structure, is very smart, biddable, can think for him- or herself, is good-natured and has a strong work ethic. Sounds like a great set of qualities to have no matter what activity you want the dog to excel in.

D'Elle

[SecretBC]

Yes, working bred dogs ARE amazing at agility. The problem is that they aren't the easiest to find and that there are *some* working breeders who won't sell to sport people. So sport people take the easy route and buy from sport breeders who advertise & promote themselves in the sporting world....

 

Working bred dogs are great because they tend to have a bit easier temperament to live with. I hear that quite a few of the dogs from sport breeders are lacking an 'off switch'.

 

But again, availability.....

[jdarling]

If people want to keep the working lines alive & thriving, they are going to have to reach out to the sporting community and make themselves known.

 

What? Where is the logic in this? The claim is out there that working breeders won't sell to sport homes, so why would working breeders "reach out" to the community you claim they won't sell dogs to?

 

There are plenty of working breeders who will sell to anyone that asks, unfortunately, so I think the claim is a copout. There are reputable working breeders that will sell to a sport home on a spay/neuter contract, but apparently, that's not good enough for some agility homes.

 

 

 

 

[Root Beer]

What big hat won't sell to sport people? I can see them wanting a few of the litter to go on to working homes so they can see the progress of their breeding plan, but I really can't see most "normal" bighats, not selling a dog to someone they know will take care of and enjoy their pup. Maybe some kind of non breeding contract but then again, I don't see that much around here. If you got the bucks, you get the dog. At least that's been my experience.

 

I don't think the problem is so much that big hats won't sell to sport people. Even though I have not been in that market myself, I am aware that some do and some don't. If a high level Agility competitor wanted to purchase a working bred puppy, I am sure that he or she would be able to do so. So, it's not that they can't.

 

I think the issue primarily lies in the fact that working breeders don't market to sport people and sport breeders do. So unless the sport person who is seeking a Border Collie puppy happens to be an avid reader of this board (and most are not) or personally knows someone who is into stockwork who might talk to them about the working Border Collie, those folks are going to go to breeders who market to the sport population.

 

Now I'm kind of going off on a tangent and I'm not responding directly to your quote above, Kristen.

 

I think one thing that kind of gets lost on those who are not involved with dog sports is that for someone who trains and competes even half seriously, the dog is a huge investment. The handler will spend hours, days, and years, and probably a considerable amount of money, training the dog. The handler will put a lot of serious consideration into health concerns, physical conditioning, and (for some) into the emotional and mental well being of the dog. In addition to the investment in the dog and in training, there is the emotional investment that one makes in all of those years of training and preparation. It becomes, for some of us, as much a part of our lives as our regular jobs and our families. The fact that one does not make money from it or that it does not bring about world peace makes it no less important to those who have made that kind of investment.

 

The idea that a top handler could make a superstar out of any dog is actually very unrealistic. It's like saying that the coach of an olympic gold medalist could train any person to compete and win at that level. Most people actually don't have what it takes even though a good coach can certainly bring out the potential in those who truly have it. There are more factors than meet the eye to choose, train, and prepare a dog, not only to tolerate, but to thrive in competition after competition after competition. There is a lot more stress and discomfort that the dog must tolerate than one would expect and the dog has to be able to handle that. And a lot of dogs don't have what it takes to be excellent in competitive dog sports.

 

What's my point? A lot of us get into sports with the dog we have and we do the best we can. And we learn great lessons and it's all good. But when we go to get another dog, we go into that with a very different mindset. We are looking for certain traits that we hope (note I said "hope", not "ensure") will make that dog an excellent sport partner. For some that is just Agility, for some Obedience, for some Freestyle dance, and many are looking for a dog that might excel at multiple sports.

 

Where are most of the people who are looking for very specific things going to go? Yes, some will go to rescue, but most will go to a breeder who promotes his or herself as one who is breeding dogs with exactly those characteristics.

 

So now you have people who want Border Collies. Some of them already own Border Collies and love them and don't really care to own any other breed (I fall into that category). Some own other breeds and want a Border Collie because they are drawn to them. Some own other breeds and want a Border Collie because they often do excel at sports and they want that.

 

It's easy to say that they should go to a working breeder, but what working breeders are promoting themselves among that population? How can those puppy buyers seriously be expected to know that the qualities that they are looking for can be found in the working bred Border Collie?

 

I still say it's a quandary.

[MyTDogs]

What big hat won't sell to sport people? I can see them wanting a few of the litter to go on to working homes so they can see the progress of their breeding plan, but I really can't see most "normal" bighats, not selling a dog to someone they know will take care of and enjoy their pup. Maybe some kind of non breeding contract but then again, I don't see that much around here. If you got the bucks, you get the dog. At least that's been my experience.

 

Exactly, I think they would all be smart to sell to a sport homes on a Non- Breeding & Non-AKC FULL registration. I think they should also understand & allow ILP/PAL so that the buyer can participate in the venue of their choice.

[Pippin's person]

 

It's easy to say that they should go to a working breeder, but what working breeders are promoting themselves among that population? How can those puppy buyers seriously be expected to know that the qualities that they are looking for can be found in the working bred Border Collie?

 

I still say it's a quandary.

 

I think the simple answer is that they can't. And that working breeders needn't promote themselves for that population because it will quite likely be futile and frustrating for many who try (not all and the determined will find a way).

 

The consequences of that, though, are (as I've now said twice) continued breeding practices that lead to a different breed. If we can recognize that (without judgement), then there's less reason to worry further--but that means that Agility enthusiasts have to understand that the dog they are doing agility with is not the same kind of dog who is competing in field trials.

 

Doing that brings other potential problems along with it, of course (e.g. what do breed-specific BC rescues do.....; who gets the authentic claim to the name "border collie", etc.)--none of which is easy to solve. But, increasingly and sadly, I don't think it's a quandary that's possible to reconcile and the specific beliefs and practices of both groups will simply lead to increased differentiation between the two types of dogs.

[grenzehund]

... that means that Agility enthusiasts have to understand that the dog they are doing agility with is not the same kind of dog who is competing in field trials.

 

Yes.

[Root Beer]

The consequences of that, though, are (as I've now said twice) continued breeding practices that lead to a different breed. If we can recognize that (without judgement), then there's less reason to worry further--but that means that Agility enthusiasts have to understand that the dog they are doing agility with is not the same kind of dog who is competing in field trials.

 

That will never happen without a name change on one side of the other. Or, at least some kind of "official" designation that would become part of the name.

 

And since the sport folks are not the ones who feel that there is a reason to change the name, the choice really is to change it on the working side, or deal with the fact that most people are going to consider a Border Collie a Border Collie, regardless of the dog's breeding. The debate may go on forever, but most people are not going to view the Border Collie and the Border Collie as two different breeds.

 

Doing that brings other potential problems along with it, of course (e.g. what do breed-specific BC rescues do.....; who gets the authentic claim to the name "border collie", etc.)--none of which are easy to solve.

 

That would be impossible to solve.

[SecretBC]

but that means that Agility enthusiasts have to understand that the dog they are doing agility with is not the same kind of dog who is competing in field trials.

 

I don't think they care...

 

This is just going to go around in circles. You can't complain about sport breeders if the working breeders aren't going to provide the dogs that sport people want/need.

[jdarling]

Why is it the responsibility of the working Border Collie breeder -- the one who is responsible for preserving the breed -- to market to people who use the dogs for manmade doggie sports? Where is the responsibility of the buyer to research what they are doing and support that which will benefit the breed as a whole?

 

Let's say the working Border Collie folks decide to break off and call their dogs Working Sheepdogs or something like that. This will leave the Sporter Collies and the Barbie Collies sharing the same "breed." I imagine the Sporter Collie world would change that in a heartbeat when they can no longer be mistaken for true working Border Collies!!

[jdarling]

This is just going to go around in circles. You can't complain about sport breeders if the working breeders aren't going to provide the dogs that sport people want/need.

 

Who are all these working breeders that won't sell to agility homes?

 

 

[SecretBC]

Why is it the responsibility of the working Border Collie breeder -- the one who is responsible for preserving the breed -- to market to people who use the dogs for manmade doggie sports? Where is the responsibility of the buyer to research what they are doing and support that which will benefit the breed as a whole?

 

The reason is because it is the working Border Collie breeders/enthusiasts who have the PROBLEM with the sport breeders/sport-bred dogs. If you have a problem with "Sporter Collies," then YOU need to do the work to educate people on why the working-bred BC is better and why they need to be preserved.

 

Plain and simple, most sport people don't know any better! There aren't many people who even bring it up. And more and more often, when you ask someone, "Where did you get your dog?" the answer is going to be from one of the sport breeders -- Meaning that when it comes time for Joe Schmoe to get a puppy, he'll go to the sport breeder because that's what he's familiar with.

 

As to "where are all the working breeders that won't sell to sport homes" --- The main issue is that Average Agility Amy doesn't KNOW any working breeders, doesn't know how to find them, and maybe doesn't even know it's an option. Because working breeders don't advertise themselves.

[Shetlander]

It's easy to say that they should go to a working breeder, but what working breeders are promoting themselves among that population? How can those puppy buyers seriously be expected to know that the qualities that they are looking for can be found in the working bred Border Collie?

 

That is definitely part of it. Sports people look at what breeds/particular dogs tend to do well in their sport and gravitate in that direction. That is what they know and see. When I decided I wanted a Border Collie I talked to people I knew who had the breed, people from agility and obedience, to find out "good" sources for a puppy. Hence the sports bred model you'll find at my side. And honestly, telling me my sports bred dog isn't a real Border Collie doesn't really make me think "Oh, then I need a working bred Border Collie for my next dog." Because I can't think of a better dog for me personally than Quinn (ok, he could be more saint-like with the Lhasa and have a more protective nature). The fact is my sports bred dog and my friends' sports bred dogs are pretty darn wonderful in our eyes, fun to train, great to compete with, easy to live with and they even have off-switches.

 

I think there is a lot going on here. Availability of working bred pups is just one, significant aspect of the issue.

[Root Beer]

I think there is a lot going on here. Availability of working bred pups is just one, significant aspect of the issue.

 

I concur.

[shysheperdess]

Do those participating in this discussion consider this kind of breeder to be hurting or helping the situation...taking dogs from mostly working lines(although how talented on sheep we don't know as none of them has seen an open course)...and marketing them towards agility people??

 

http://sites.google.com/site/silveridgebc2/

[Journey]

I think she's a member here. Still they are sport bred and sport promoted. Hurting the breed IMO as they are not proven on stock. Anyone can buy and import a dog doesn't mean it's anygood though.

[jdarling]

Availability of working bred pups is just one, significant aspect of the issue.

 

Availability of working bred pups being advertised in agility circles you mean? You're probably right. Lack of availability of working bred pups? Yeah ... that'll be the day.