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Susan Garrett's border collies


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So...if one is interested in being extremely successful in agility they should seek out a sport breeder??

 

You do understand that even though Buzz's breeding was made with no intention for the pups talent on stock, Juice is from strait working lines, even though she didn't use him for that..

 

Also, Jan Demellos main agility sire, who is arguably one of the most succesful producers of talented agility dogs...is from strait working lines....I am aware of the person who has his full blooded sister who has produced many outstanding sheepdogs for work and trials...

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I do not think there is ANYTHING wrong with having working-bred dogs for agility. In fact, the working-bred dogs I know are AMAZING. I am crossing my fingers that I can talk a certain person into doing another breeding in a year or so because I would kill for a dog out of her bitch (who excels in herding AND agility).

 

What I tire of is the bashing that goes on at this board about sport breeders. The fact is that there are many sport breeders producing dogs that do very well for the purpose for which they were bred (flyball, agility, etc.). There is a market for those dogs and if trained correctly, they tend to do incredibly well in their sport.

 

A large part of it comes down to availability. At least in my area, it is HARD to find anyone with true working-bred dogs -- and if you do, you have to get them to sell you a dog knowing that you only intend to use it for sporting purposes. Everyone knows the "big names" in the sporting world and it's really not all that hard to get a dog from them, provided you can pony up the ridiculous amounts of $$ that they want.

 

There are probably more people in this world that do agility than do sheep trials. Supply/demand.

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...

What I tire of is the bashing that goes on at this board about sport breeders. The fact is that there are many sport breeders producing dogs that do very well for the purpose for which they were bred (flyball, agility, etc.). There is a market for those dogs and if trained correctly, they tend to do incredibly well in their sport.

 

I'm not sure "bashing" is an accurate description.

 

Perhaps an excerpt of what is written in the sticky "READ THIS FIRST" in "General Border Collie Discussion" is appropriate here:

 

"For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed."

 

 

The other Susan, who is well-rested

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The fact is that there are many sport breeders producing dogs that do very well for the purpose for which they were bred (flyball, agility, etc.). There is a market for those dogs and if trained correctly, they tend to do incredibly well in their sport.

 

Those are called Sporter Collies, and should be registered as such.

 

 

 

 

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What grenzehund said...

 

And I am very aware of your area and what working bred breeders lie within a couple hours of you, if you chose to seek them out rather than be willing to open a very large pocket book and make a "deal with the devil"in hopes of getting a talented agility dog...

 

I am also aware, having good friends who train/compete and are highly succesful in the cities not far from you, that there are working breeders who will not sell pups to those wanting to participate in dog sports. I feel if you understood the philosophy behind these boards it wouldn't be hard to see why they choose not to. But there are those who will....and it's worth the time and effort...

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Whatever. I don't have a "Sporter Collie," but I know people who do and don't think any less of them. My girl came from rescue and we don't know anything about her other than that she was dumped at a shelter in Kentucky with her mom & two siblings.

 

I've already said that I hope to get my next dog from someone who breeds working lines. I'm not sure how this makes me lazy.

 

I just don't see anything wrong with people who DO choose to get a dog from sport breeders.

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Karissa, you've been around since March of last year. I find it hard to believe that 1) you think it's a good idea to try to promote sporter collie breeding here, and 2) you're surprised by the reaction to it. By the way, we are all dog lovers. No one is dissing the individual dogs. We are talking about breeders and what criteria breeders base their breeding decisions on, so please don't start in with the "well my dog is a rescue and I love her just the same." So do we.

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Actually, I thought this thread was about Susan Garrett and where she got her dogs. The implication is that people should think less of her & her accomplishments because her dogs are from "sport breeders." But were her dogs to have "pure working lines," that would somehow make her better?

 

Who knows, but I doubt Susan cares.

 

I'm not surprised in the least at the reaction against sport breeders here. I'm quite used to it. The fact remains that I simply don't have the problem that many here do with sport breeders. Probably because I'm a "sport person" and not a "herding person." We gave it a try once and Secret kind of sucked. :lol::blink: Not that it's not something I wouldn't like to try with the next dog, hopefully one who is actually bred for it -- But truthfully, it's not a high priority and time (and $$) is limited in my world. Agility tends to win those battles. I don't have very easy access to sheep. I have agility equipment in my back yard.

 

I think it is awesome to watch a BC do what comes naturally to them, listening to some genetically pre-programmed code within themselves. But you have to admit that this sort of thing is pretty much wasted on people like myself who have no intention or real capability to make use of such skills. Yes, it is true that much of what makes a dog a good working dog can also make them an extraordinary agility dog -- But again, it comes down that whole "access/availability" issue much of the time.

 

Pretty sure Susan finds her dogs through personal contacts, and it would make sense that her contacts are members of the sporting world -- Not the herding world.

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I just don't see anything wrong with people who DO choose to get a dog from sport breeders.

 

This is pretty much saying that you either still don't get it or just don't care that breeding for sports will ruin the border collie as we know it.

 

Whatever, indeed.

 

The worst thing about border collies being so damn popular at agility over the past ten years is that it draws so many people who don't give a ^&*% about the breed.

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Or even a rescue!

 

Now that is something I would love to see her take on. One with a plethora of pre-existing habits. Not necessarily a "problem dog", but one she didn't raise herself.

 

It would be interesting to see if she came away from that experience with some new insights to share with the world. :lol:

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Now that is something I would love to see her take on. One with a plethora of pre-existing habits. Not necessarily a "problem dog", but one she didn't raise herself.

 

It would be interesting to see if she came away from that experience with some new insights to share with the world. :lol:

 

A good friend of mine is an incredible agility handler. I have absolutely no doubt she could take almost any dog and be very competitive with it.

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A good friend of mine is an incredible agility handler. I have absolutely no doubt she could take almost any dog and be very competitive with it.

 

That's not what I mean, though. I'd be interested in the insights that she would gain through work with that particular type of dog and how that would impact her work with other dog and handler teams. I would expect such a challenge would be a very rich learning experience - especially for someone of her caliber.

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I'm quite certain that Susan has worked extensively with "rescue dogs" and dogs with "issues" through her many training camps & seminars at Say Yes. And I'm sure those experiences have surely shaped her current training methods...

 

It's not as though Susan only works with her own dogs.

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I'm quite certain that Susan has worked extensively with "rescue dogs" and dogs with "issues" through her many training camps & seminars at Say Yes. And I'm sure those experiences have surely shaped her current training methods...

 

It's not as though Susan only works with her own dogs.

 

Of course she has. Still, it is one thing to work with others who have a certain type of dog and it is quite another to own and train and compete with such a dog yourself.

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A good friend of mine is an incredible agility handler. I have absolutely no doubt she could take almost any dog and be very competitive with it.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. Training the obstacles and putting them together into novice-type courses is easy. Almost any physically sound dog can do reasonably well in agility...in a large padded cell with no distractions.

 

Problems start when the dog can't cope with the training and agility environment. The fastest, most athletic dog on the planet will go nowhere in agility if it can't work confidently in the presense of other dogs/ strangers, etc. Speed and athleticism get you nowhere if the dog can't cope with the environment or it just doesn't want to play the game badly enough, so the environment starts to matter.

 

On Sunday, my problem dog, who was doing so well, ran off the course in mid sequence to investigate the neighbor's barking dogs. After having to chase my dog down and watching two others struggle with their dogs, it occurred to me that in addition to the speed/athleticism, we all desire a dog that wants to play the game as much or more than we do, and who wants to play the game so much that it doesn't give a rats ass about two small barking dogs on the other side of a fence located 100 feet away from the ring.

 

Although I am sure that SG and other hotshots are willing to work with almost any dog that someone brings to them in a seminar setting, there is a reason why they acquire their dogs from certain breeders as opposed to the local dog pound, which is full of fast, athletic, and structurally correct dogs.

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The worst thing about border collies being so damn popular at agility over the past ten years is that it draws so many people who don't give a ^&*% about the breed. :angry:

 

There's always a villain, isn't there? Right now it's the sport breeder. It used to be the conformation breeder. Hobnob is the new Clan Abby - the new black!.

 

But let's not forget the hundreds and thousands of BYB dogs that have no attachment to sport, conformation or other purpose breeding (that end up in rescue and shelter every blessed year). Much bigger problem, been around a lot longer, still make up a way bigger population of the non-working border collies produced. Just sayin'.

 

Also, Jan Demellos main agility sire, who is arguably one of the most succesful producers of talented agility dogs...is from strait working lines....

 

So the evil sporter collie breeder does not work alone then. Why do working breeders sell to sporter collie breeders? Or stud to them? Yes, the question is more rhetorical than anything else.

 

Nothing exists in a vaccuum, is all.

 

RDM

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Maybe. Maybe not. Training the obstacles and putting them together into novice-type courses is easy. Almost any physically sound dog can do reasonably well in agility...in a large padded cell with no distractions.

 

Problems start when the dog can't cope with the training and agility environment. The fastest, most athletic dog on the planet will go nowhere in agility if it can't work confidently in the presense of other dogs/ strangers, etc. Speed and athleticism get you nowhere if the dog can't cope with the environment or it just doesn't want to play the game badly enough, so the environment starts to matter.

 

On Sunday, my problem dog, who was doing so well, ran off the course in mid sequence to investigate the neighbor's barking dogs. After having to chase my dog down and watching two others struggle with their dogs, it occurred to me that in addition to the speed/athleticism, we all desire a dog that wants to play the game as much or more than we do, and who wants to play the game so much that it doesn't give a rats ass about two small barking dogs on the other side of a fence located 100 feet away from the ring.

 

Although I am sure that SG and other hotshots are willing to work with almost any dog that someone brings to them in a seminar setting, there is a reason why they acquire their dogs from certain breeders as opposed to the local dog pound, which is full of fast, athletic, and structurally correct dogs.

 

Sure, they're stacking the deck in their favor. But there are plenty of dogs in shelters and rescue that are structurally and temperamentally sound enough to do agility. And I'm sure someone of SG caliber could pick one out. Sheesh, I could probably pick one out.

 

And dogs don't come out of the womb naturally desiring to do agility more than anything else on earth. The handler builds drive for the activity.

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That's not what I mean, though. I'd be interested in the insights that she would gain through work with that particular type of dog and how that would impact her work with other dog and handler teams. I would expect such a challenge would be a very rich learning experience - especially for someone of her caliber.

 

Am I mistaken or was her JRT a rescue? (or maybe I'm mixing successful agility handlers here)--Isn't that the dog who caused her to develop the Ruff Love program and book?

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Now that is something I would love to see her take on. One with a plethora of pre-existing habits. Not necessarily a "problem dog", but one she didn't raise herself.

 

It would be interesting to see if she came away from that experience with some new insights to share with the world. :lol:

 

 

Susan is an amazing trainer, she could probably turn any dog into a super star, wether she raised it from puppyhood or not. :)

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Maybe. Maybe not. Training the obstacles and putting them together into novice-type courses is easy. Almost any physically sound dog can do reasonably well in agility...in a large padded cell with no distractions.

 

Problems start when the dog can't cope with the training and agility environment. The fastest, most athletic dog on the planet will go nowhere in agility if it can't work confidently in the presense of other dogs/ strangers, etc. Speed and athleticism get you nowhere if the dog can't cope with the environment or it just doesn't want to play the game badly enough, so the environment starts to matter.

 

On Sunday, my problem dog, who was doing so well, ran off the course in mid sequence to investigate the neighbor's barking dogs. After having to chase my dog down and watching two others struggle with their dogs, it occurred to me that in addition to the speed/athleticism, we all desire a dog that wants to play the game as much or more than we do, and who wants to play the game so much that it doesn't give a rats ass about two small barking dogs on the other side of a fence located 100 feet away from the ring.

 

Although I am sure that SG and other hotshots are willing to work with almost any dog that someone brings to them in a seminar setting, there is a reason why they acquire their dogs from certain breeders as opposed to the local dog pound, which is full of fast, athletic, and structurally correct dogs.

 

Lack of proper training, high value reward, and working with distractions.

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But let's not forget the hundreds and thousands of BYB dogs that have no attachment to sport, conformation or other purpose breeding (that end up in rescue and shelter every blessed year). Much bigger problem, been around a lot longer, still make up a way bigger population of the non-working border collies produced. Just sayin'.

 

... most of which are mixes, and are not in any way a threat to working bred Border Collies, or Sporter Collies, or even Barbie Collies ... nor do their mere existence in shelters all over the country justify Sporter Collie breeding in any way.

 

Just sayin'...

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I was also going to quote the numbers for the last few years of how many Border Collies were registered with the ABCA, and how many were registered with the AKC, so we could look at percentages rather than numbers ... but when I wrote to the AKC, they would not release to me the actual number of Border Collies registered with them over the last few years. Odd, eh?

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