brndlbc Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I wouldn't touch a FQHR horse with a ten foot pole, based on the merit of the registry alone. As I understand it and from what I have seen and know of some of the breeders that promote foundation bred horses, we dealt with some in Wisconsin. More weight is put on the percentage of "Foundation" blood and in some cases heavy inbreeding then on the actual work of the horse. It would be simular to starting a new Border Collie Registry based on dogs that have a higher percentage of foundation blood basing the foundation on 10 or what ever number, or originally registered ISDS dogs. This would reduce the influence of the more recent ROM'ed dogs or dogs that were accepted into the ISDS registry after those foundation dogs were granted papers from your lines. The AQHA is open to new Throughbred Blood via the Appendix program. We saw a stir with people promoting FQHA horses when it was believed that they average Quarter Horse was getting to look more Thourghbred as opposed to the old style "Bull Dog Quarter Horse", and that old type could not longer compete at the shows. Breed a registered QH to a TB and you get Appendix papers, prove the Appendix registered horse or the offspring in AQHA events and you get regular AQHA papers. The FQHR reduces the modern TB influence by requiring that horses they register to maintain a certain percentage of foundation blood. I've seen more then one breeder marketing the percentage of foundation blood as it is the requirement for maintaining and gaining registry as opposed to the quality of the work. Not saying all breeders, there probably are some that are good and producing spectacular horses, but I suspect they are also proving those horses within AQHA and the specific performance organizations. Personally, I think there is a better chance of seeing health issues by going the route of a foundation registry as it will cause a concentration of genetics and promote inbreeding for the wrong purpose. I was thinking more along the line of a working certification outside of the competition fields/arenas rather than a blood registry. Not sure the logistics of it all, just an idea. Maybe something that would then encourage further involvement some where down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 To go back to the original topic -- Susan just posted "big news" on her Facebook page. She bred Feature (she didn't say to whom, but he is related to Encore) and got a singleton male puppy. http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Susan-Garrett-Dog-Agility-Training/148038161884479 Wonder why she kept it such a secret....? Why do you think it was a "secret?" Because you didn't know? I'm not defending whether Susan is "right" for breeding Border Collies for agility, but your comment (and the implied judgement of the so-called secretiveness) is very strange to me. What point are you trying to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I hate to extend this thread, but is SG serious in her FB posts? Or is it tongue in cheek? If it's the former - Oh.my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Why do you think it was a "secret?" Because you didn't know? I'm not defending whether Susan is "right" for breeding Border Collies for agility, but your comment (and the implied judgement of the so-called secretiveness) is very strange to me. What point are you trying to make? I think it's because she really did keep it a big secret. She seems to be very into her blog and sharing stuff and etc etc, it seems kind of weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I wrote-- I do believe that one can have an authentic" Border Collie ( to address your "unauthentic" description , ) without working any stock. But I also believe the true Border Collie should stay the course and be bred for what it was developed for working stock.>>>>>>>. You replied quote name 'geonni banner" Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one... I feel that a Border Collie that doesn't have the ability to work stock is just not the real deal - regardless of what its papers, it's appearance and parentage say. Even if it speaks Gaelic! Although, I'm fine with it if the owner of the dog chooses not to work stock, but the breeder ought to, or they shouldn't be breeding. I do believe you are disagreeing with a statement that says exactly what your statement says. Our words were written in a different order, but I do believe the idea is the same so we do not have to agree to disagree on this important part of the Border Collies' existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I wrote-- I do believe that one can have an authentic" Border Collie ( to address your "unauthentic" description , ) without working any stock. But I also believe the true Border Collie should stay the course and be bred for what it was developed for working stock.>>>>>>>. You replied name 'geonni banner" Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one... I feel that a Border Collie that doesn't have the ability to work stock is just not the real deal - regardless of what its papers, it's appearance and parentage say. Even if it speaks Gaelic! Although, I'm fine with it if the owner of the dog chooses not to work stock, but the breeder ought to, or they shouldn't be breeding. I do believe you are disagreeing with a statement that says exactly what your statement says. Our words were written in a different order, but I do believe the idea is the same so we do not have to agree to disagree on this important part of the Border Collies' existence. What I said was, '...And people think they are all nuts. I think people have these ideas because the Border Collies they are likely to meet would tend to support this notion, and, at least where I live, (it's an urban environment,) Border Collies from working stock - let alone those that actually work - are as scarce as hen's teeth. I just think we're drowning in inauthentic Border Collies, and I)worry about them (the "inauthentic them,")completely overwhelming the breed by sheer numbers,and by dilution of good working stock by interbreeding with the Barbies or the "Obstacle-course Rockets."' And what I meant by that was, since it seems to me that the non-working Border Collies seem to outnumber the working ones, we are in danger of stock sense and ability being bred out of the breed as a whole. Of course, I don't see that happening next week, because there are heaps of good working dogs around at the moment. But I fear that the non-working/ working demographics of the breed are moving in a worrisome direction. I think that omitted "I" in the above post may have created some confusion. It was just poorly written. (But I knew what I meant! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think it's because she really did keep it a big secret. She seems to be very into her blog and sharing stuff and etc etc, it seems kind of weird. I think the breeder and the puppy buyers are the only ones who need to know. Not sharing the information with others outside of that group of folks doesn't mean it's being kept a secret. From her FB post: To the people waiting for a puppy, was a forgone conclusion that this puppy would be mine. Bold emphasis mine. Clearly, people knew. I don't think a breeder--whether their breeding choices are right or wrong for working Border Collies--is under any obligation to post information publicly about an upcoming litter. As has been said so many times here, good working litters are often spoken for by word of mouth even before the breeding takes place. Why would the breeder of such a litter NEED to announce it? In Susan's agility/training world, no doubt a puppy from her dog would be desirable. Why would she need to announce it, if she's already got buyers for the pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I don't think a breeder--whether their breeding choices are right or wrong for working Border Collies--is under any obligation to post information publicly about an upcoming litter. As has been said so many times here, good working litters are often spoken for by word of mouth even before the breeding takes place. Why would the breeder of such a litter NEED to announce it? In Susan's agility/training world, no doubt a puppy from her dog would be desirable. Why would she need to announce it, if she's already got buyers for the pups? That is along the lines of what I was thinking, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think it's because she really did keep it a big secret. She seems to be very into her blog and sharing stuff and etc etc, it seems kind of weird. Yes, this. Susan loves to share news with her blog readers, so I guess I would have expected her to post musings about possibly breeding her young dog. But I can see how she would have been flooded with requests to get on the puppy list, so I can also understand keeping quiet, I guess. I'm just surprised she managed to keep quiet until the little guy was born. Wonder if she'll try again....? Puppies out of a bitch like Feature really do bring on drooling fits from the sporting crowd. Although I'm partial to black & whites, personally. Don't you wonder what she would charge? I'm guessing she would put HobNob to shame. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yes, this. Susan loves to share news with her blog readers, so I guess I would have expected her to post musings about possibly breeding her young dog. But I can see how she would have been flooded with requests to get on the puppy list, so I can also understand keeping quiet, I guess. I'm just surprised she managed to keep quiet until the little guy was born. It's definitely difficult keeping a secret when you know that there are people who would share in the excitement and anticipation. But I would imagine that the prospect of endless requests for puppies, or to be put on a list for future breedings probably would make it easier to keep quiet until after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Puppies out of a bitch like Feature really do bring on drooling fits from the sporting crowd. Do you think it's the dog herself or the fact that she is Susan's Garrett's (the agility trainer) that would cause the drooling? Given that Garrett describes this as a rare breeding of one of her own agility collies, I must say that I'm inclined to believe the latter (but I also recognize it's not my culture, really.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Do you think it's the dog herself or the fact that she is Susan's Garrett's (the agility trainer) that would cause the drooling? I see it more as "if this dog is one that Susan Garrett considers to be a good Agility prospect, I want one just like that". I know there are those who really believe that Susan Garrett could take any dog and make a star out of it, but I think most Agility competitors know that it takes both a good handler/trainer and a dog with "the right stuff" to make a highly successful team. And a more talented dog can make a handler who is less skilled look pretty darn good, and a dog with serious limitations can test the skills of even a great trainer/handler. Susan's dogs have the physical and mental characteristics that make it possible for them to be successful for a handler of Susan's calibre. Most run of the mill Agility enthusiasts would consider the offspring of one of her world team level dogs to be about as much of a "sure fire" Agility prospect as there could possibly be. Whether or not this is actually the case could be debated, but the average sport competitor is really not going to think about it the same way that someone who thinks of breeding in terms of stockwork would. Like you said - it's a different culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 I do compete in agility, and I don't think the demand for sports breeders are so large that it is a threat to the working border collie. I actually think the working border collie and the sports bred border collie are the least common border collies in agility. I tend to see more backyard bred border collies competing. My observation is that the really serious handlers choose sports bred or working bred border collies, but the average person (who makes up the majority of handlers) is not. BTW, I have a rescue border collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 This is an old discussion and a long one, so I don't recall all that has been said. From my experience in Agility, at least in my neck of the woods, it is very, very rare to see a true working bred dog in sports. Lots of dogs with some working lines behind them from sports breeders and a few from more casual backyard breeders. I suppose it varies by location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 This is an old discussion and a long one, so I don't recall all that has been said. From my experience in Agility, at least in my neck of the woods, it is very, very rare to see a true working bred dog in sports. Lots of dogs with some working lines behind them from sports breeders and a few from more casual backyard breeders. I suppose it varies by location. Oh, I should have paid more attention to the date (February). I'm sure it does vary by location. In my area there are a lot of border collies being sold from farm settings, but they are not true, proven working dogs, so I still refer to them as backyard breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 I agree, there are a lot of folks in the herding world who are breeding a lot without really breeding to enhance the breed. Way too many. When it comes to sport breeding, in many ways, that is an interesting concept in the sense that agility is far more about training, rather than the dog. Agility is not about instinct like herding is, so breeding for sports is sort of silly. A good trainer/handler can go far with a so-so dog. I would rather have a dog from good working lines and from a responsible breeder, but I would pick a sports breeder who does m health checks and limited breeding over a breeder who uses their dog for herding, but just breeds their dog to just make money and breeds without care. The point is there are good and bad breeders in both sectors. I am sure that Susan Garrett gets her pups from sports breeders though because in order to go to fci worlds, akc requires 3rd generation akc dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 I am sure that Susan Garrett gets her pups from sports breeders though because in order to go to fci worlds, akc requires 3rd generation akc dogs. Why would she care what AKC requires if she is Canadian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Why would she care what AKC requires if she is Canadian? Because the CKC (which is Canada's representative to the FCI) doesn't recognize the border collie (that's a good thing!) - the only registry for border collies in Canada is the Canadian Border Collie Association (CBCA). Interestingly, the AKC used to recognize CBCA dogs and allow them to be dual-registered, but that stopped a year or so ago (another good thing!). Now the only way you could run FCI with a CBCA dog is to dual-register them ABCA, then AKC (as AKC will dual-register ABCA dogs). For the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters since I believe her dogs are AKC/ABCA registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Because the CKC (which is Canada's representative to the FCI) doesn't recognize the border collie (that's a good thing!) - the only registry for border collies in Canada is the Canadian Border Collie Association (CBCA). Interestingly, the AKC used to recognize CBCA dogs and allow them to be dual-registered, but that stopped a year or so ago (another good thing!). Now the only way you could run FCI with a CBCA dog is to dual-register them ABCA, then AKC (as AKC will dual-register ABCA dogs). For the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters since I believe her dogs are AKC/ABCA registered. Oh how weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hmm, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you still can register your CBCA dog as AKC. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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