Mini Border Collies?

[ann_king68]

I am always looking for more information on Border Collies? I am still kindof a first time owner of Border collies, I have my one year old and my three month old. I found a website with various descriptions of what they should look like, size, and all of that. There was a completely different breed called Mini Border Collies and Mini Aussie's. Are they actually BC's? Or are they just a different breed that looks like them but smaller. I'm confused. I thought Border Collie's are already smaller dogs anyway, me being used to having a 110 lb lab and my sister's 150 lb Mastiff. Are the mini BC's and Aussie's AKC?

[ejano]

I am always looking for more information on Border Collies? I am still kindof a first time owner of Border collies, I have my one year old and my three month old. I found a website with various descriptions of what they should look like, size, and all of that. There was a completely different breed called Mini Border Collies and Mini Aussie's. Are they actually BC's? Or are they just a different breed that looks like them but smaller. I'm confused. I thought Border Collie's are already smaller dogs anyway, me being used to having a 110 lb lab and my sister's 150 lb Mastiff. Are the mini BC's and Aussie's AKC?

 

 

Others, I'm sure will explain more thoroughly, but some AKC breeders intentionally and with malice aforethought breed smaller and smaller versions of perfectly good dogs. You hear them announced at the shows "Same standard, just smaller..." They are the victim of AKC breeding practices and advertising gimmicks. I'm sure someone out there is trying to get a Border Collie small enough to fit into a pocketbook. It's disgusting.

 

 

Rant over....Welcome to the boards, enjoy your pups! - We'd love to see pictures! One good online resource for Border Collie lovers is The Border Collie Museum

[MrSnappy]

This has been discussed here before:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=5992

 

There is no such thing as a mini border collie. Some border collies are bigger, and some are smaller. If someone is consistently getting small, small border collies, chances are they are outcrossing to some other breed.

 

Mini Aussies, OTOH, tend to breed true to size, but they were likely also outcrossed to something small to begin with.

 

RDM

[Sue R]

Welcome, Ann!

 

You might find it useful to read "Read This First" if you haven't already, as it explains the philosophy of these boards and gives you the flavor of what most members here espouse with regards to the Border Collie and its breeding, and its use as a working stockdog as well as a dog that often excels at many other pursuits.

[mum24dog]

Once upon a time here in the UK we'd see the occasional BC that was small enough to run at Medium height in agility. None of these was anything other than a perfectly normal dog that just happened to be under 17ins.

 

Nowadays things have changed and the main reason is that we have had 2 extremely successful Medium dog/handler teams where the dog happens to be a BC (the current double world champion being one of them.

These dogs were admittedly sport bred but they were bought to be Large dogs.

 

Now breeders are jumping on the bandwagon and deliberately trying to breed them small because there are enough idiots around who probably can't hack it with the big boys and think they can achieve the same dizzy heights if they just drop a size with their next dog.

 

Can't comment on people who just want dinky little miniaturised versions of dogs. I don't think it's quite as common here.

 

Pam

[MrSnappy]

Well, I kind of wish Piper had either remained smaller or gotten larger - she's 17.5" so she's too big for the 16" division and the 22" division is just too high for her. She jumps 16" specials. Our cut off is 16", and you'd be hard pressed to find a border collie that small around here. Even the WooTWoo, who are small dogs, are just over 16" and would jump 22" (if there was a Christmas miracle, and they were inclined to do something I asked of them, even just one time). I can't really imagine a border collie that small.

 

I had an applicant who had moved here from South Africa tell me that she had a "mini border collie" and wanted another, and when I explained she couldn't adopt one from me as there was no such thing, she got very indignant and proclaimed that her well respected agility teacher in S.A. said there were indeed two kinds of border collies - regular and mini - and she had a mini. So maybe over there the "mini border collie" exists, but it certainly doesn't here.

 

Lots of people have told me they want a border collie the size of Piper, but those are always pet people, not sport people. Sport people seem to be able to eye a dog's height with a practiced eye, and right away assess her as being in the too big/too small category. The pet people seem to want a border collie that is small enough to tuck under your arm, which Piper is.

 

Most of the border collies here fall into the 22" division size, but Dexter got big enough to jump 26". Smart doggie

 

RDM

[mum24dog]

Well, I kind of wish Piper had either remained smaller or gotten larger - she's 17.5" so she's too big for the 16" division and the 22" division is just too high for her.

 

That's the danger if people buy or adopt a pup with the intention of it falling into a narrow height range for competition. (Sorry, that sounds as if I think that's what you did but I'm sure you didn't.)It's not an exact science whether you know the breeding or not. I know the two handlers I mentioned were hoping their dogs would make 17ins in height but they didn't.

 

Even the WooTWoo, who are small dogs, are just over 16" and would jump 22" (if there was a Christmas miracle, and they were inclined to do something I asked of them, even just one time). I can't really imagine a border collie that small.

 

Here's one - and in the fur she's about the same size as the cow dog up the road from where I live -

 

 

Dog height alone isn't everything though - we have GSDs, Rottweilers and Hovawarts in the club that might be better over jumps lower than 26in. Why do you think 22in is too high for Piper? It may well be for her - you know your dog and I don't - but we have plenty of dogs of that size jumping 26in very successfully, and they used to jump 30ins until a few years ago. My 16in mongrel started at that height and loved it.

 

This one was about Piper's size and only retired at 12 because her ears and eyes were failing -

 

 

Sport people seem to be able to eye a dog's height with a practiced eye, and right away assess her as being in the too big/too small category.

 

I'd agree that's the case here as to whether a dog is Large or Medium, but not whether it has what it takes based on its size. There is no optimum height and build. I have friends who always go for small light Large dogs and others who prefer enormous ones, and they are equally (very) successful. I'd like a leggy dog like my daughter, she'd like a much smaller one.

 

I don't want to start an argument about it. I'm just wondering whether you have a specific reason in your dog's case or whether it's a common belief that dogs of Piper's size will struggle over 22ins. I have to be honest and say that if it wasn't obviously a confidence issue with one of our similar sized club dogs, we'd be recommending a thorough vet check, and we've been proved right in many cases. But, as I said, you know your own dog best and clearly are experienced enough to spot if there might be something physically wrong. Maybe it is just a case of different cultural expectations.

 

(I found some of your You Tube vids yesterday purely by accident when looking for something else. Makes me think it's about time for another trip out to your part of the world.)

 

Pam

[MrSnappy]

Piper just doesn't do well at 22" - she "oofs" when she lands and she's much smoother and faster at 16" which is why I dropped her some time ago to 16" Specials. I didn't buy her to be a small dog - I didn't buy her at all! I adopted her from the SPCA 8 years ago. I didn't even do agility with her until a few years ago, as we did other sports for a number of years.

 

I don't know if this is true for other associations, but in the AAC the judges and competitors are very much into the safety of the dogs and a judge won't hesitate to tell someone that their dog is struggling at a jump height, or is overweight or what have you. And while there is still some stigma about having a "Specials" (I think some associations call it "Performance") dog, I'd rather be successful in Specials with a happy / comfortable dog than push my dog to jump something that I feel is too high for her just to be competitive. I recently dropped Tweed, who is going on 11 years old, to the 10" Veterans division, after spending a few years at 16" Specials. He originally jumped 22" and when he was younger, it was not an issue for him back then. He loves jumping 10" and rockets around the course, which makes me happy. Of course it makes me happy to see my old man dog still racing around the course, and enjoying himself.

 

Anyway, I typically just find that the dogs on the very smaller end of the 16"-20" spectrum have some difficulty competing with dogs at the other end in the same division. At least in Piper's case, her legs just are not long enough and even when she's running flat out, she can't keep up with somewhat taller dogs. It may have something to do with the way she is built, but as fast as she is, I daily watch Dexter rocket past her with no discernible effort. She just doesn't have the reach he does in those tiny little legs. At 16" she is much faster, much smoother and much happier.

 

She is a cute little thing though, and because I have so many littlish dogs, Dexter looks really huge to me, though he's only something like 22" at the shoulder.

 

RDM

[mum24dog]

Piper just doesn't do well at 22" - she "oofs" when she lands and she's much smoother and faster at 16" which is why I dropped her some time ago to 16" Specials. I didn't buy her to be a small dog - I didn't buy her at all! I adopted her from the SPCA 8 years ago. I didn't even do agility with her until a few years ago, as we did other sports for a number of years.

 

I didn't realise she was that old.

 

I don't know if this is true for other associations, but in the AAC the judges and competitors are very much into the safety of the dogs and a judge won't hesitate to tell someone that their dog is struggling at a jump height, or is overweight or what have you.

 

And so they should, even if they're wrong. It happened to my daughter once and while the judge was talking to her the dog finished the course at great speed. He'd been looking for me, that's all.

 

And while there is still some stigma about having a "Specials" (I think some associations call it "Performance") dog, I'd rather be successful in Specials with a happy / comfortable dog than push my dog to jump something that I feel is too high for her just to be competitive.

 

Some shows here have Specials too - lower height classes for dogs that can't manage full height for any reason - could be inexperience, injury, age. We have Veterans too but it would be very rare to find one with a jump height as low as 10ins for a Large dog. There's more sniping goes on in those classes from the handlers than in any other, and they don't even count for anything. Some don't even give place rosettes. My 10 yr old Medium mutt had a bit of tightness in her lower back so I brought her back with a couple of shows at 13.75 ins (normal Small dog height) then put her back at 18 ins and she went like a rocket. Got E'd but that's fine as long as it was fun for her.

 

Anyway, I typically just find that the dogs on the very smaller end of the 16"-20" spectrum have some difficulty competing with dogs at the other end in the same division.

 

Strange that our experiences differ so much. Do you get a wide variation in course design? We find that some convoluted courses suit small nippy dogs and the more open ones can favour the dogs that can cover the ground faster. Back length seems to make a difference. I can compare two very keen, very small farm collies virtually identical in height - one has a shorter back and jumps too high while the one with the longer back really stretches out and skims the poles and is faster over the flat too.

 

I'm just about to start training my friend's little sprollie. Should be OK if I can get her jumping like a collie instead of a spaniel. She'll be jumping 26ins. I'll be more of a handicap than her lack of height.

 

Pam

[border_collie_crazy]

I met a 15" Border Collie a few years ago, she wasnt any kind of "mini" she was just a farm dog from Earl Grey. I was shocked to learn she was full grown!

[MrSnappy]

We have Veterans too but it would be very rare to find one with a jump height as low as 10ins for a Large dog. There's more sniping goes on in those classes from the handlers than in any other, and they don't even count for anything. Some don't even give place rosettes.

 

That sounds very sad and pathetic to me. Our vets classes are full of old dogs who still love to play but don't have the physicality to jump full height, and we're mostly all old timer agility folks who've been playing for years and still like to indulge our old dogs. There's no sniping, we're all quite fond one of anothers' old dogs. Sounds like your fellow competitors leave quite a lot to be desired, as does your association's view of older dogs competing. I'm glad I don't play in an organization like that.

 

Veterans counts here as much as any other class, it's just for older dogs. Tweed is stil running something like 7.5yps because the jump height is agreeable to his old man body. He's called a "Double Drop Veteran" because I dropped him from his original height of 22". I can run him at either 16" or 10" Vets, but I generally choose 10". He's old, and he had foot surgery not even a year ago, so I prefer to stress his body out as little as possible.

 

Anyway, Piper is one of the smaller collies I've met ... we've had a few others through that were her size-ish and I have met a couple that were smaller than her, but there's no bias FOR very small border collies here that I know of, and nobody I know locally trying to breed FOR that size of dog for sports. Thank doG.

 

RDM

[Liz P]

Just curious, how much does Piper weigh?

 

My Border Collies tend to run quite small. I have a bitch that is barely 27 lbs (well muscled) and a dog who is barely 33 (also in great shape). People look at me funny when I tell them that they are purebred, the bloodline just tends to throw smaller dogs. It was especially hard to convince them of that when Flyboy was still alive. He was at least 4 inches taller at the shoulder and nearly 60 lbs in his prime.

[adesouza89]

I was curious myself after reading this, so i decided to do some research and i found a person on facebook selling "Mini Border Collies"

 

Mini Border Collie Puppies

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Rainey is a tiny Border Collie. I get the agility and flyball people drool over her. Plus she is fast and can turn on a dime and will turn herself inside out to please you. They have asked to buy her - No, she belongs to the husband so they ask to be on the puppy list. They have heard of her brother "Epic" (DeltaBluez Anson) who is one of the top ranked fastest flyball dog (something like 4th this year and 10th overall...I am not sure but close)...he is slightly bigger than her and very talented. He was fixed as part of the deal.

 

When I tell them that I will NOT be breeding her, their jaws drop...."why.....you could sell a lot of her pups"

 

"She hasn't passed the Open requirements and might not ever....so she is not on the breeding list" (She is Getty's pet and will always be his pet. Janet is running her in PN)

 

"but I would pay big money for dogs her size" and they quote me $1500 per pup.

 

Thanks is my answer as I send them to a rescue link.

 

There was a person south of me that used to bred Mini Border Collies. I saw some of the dogs and the eyes looked bulgey.....never saw them herd but the looks looked a little off.

[Liz P]

If you read her add she says she has "short" and "tall" pups left. I would bet she isn't selling mini BCs but chondrodysplastic (dwarf) BCs. You see them more in the show lines, but they do exist in the breed.

[Gloria Atwater]

.........

 

There was a person south of me that used to bred Mini Border Collies. I saw some of the dogs and the eyes looked bulgey.....never saw them heard but the looks looked a little off.

 

 

That's what I've seen in the mini-Aussies. Not all of them, but ... enough that it throws me off liking mini-Aussies much. Dwarfism just isn't my preference.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[mum24dog]

That sounds very sad and pathetic to me. Our vets classes are full of old dogs who still love to play but don't have the physicality to jump full height, and we're mostly all old timer agility folks who've been playing for years and still like to indulge our old dogs. There's no sniping, we're all quite fond one of anothers' old dogs. Sounds like your fellow competitors leave quite a lot to be desired, as does your association's view of older dogs competing. I'm glad I don't play in an organization like that.

 

We aren't comparing like with like though. I get the impression, possibly wrongly, that the size of many of your shows is comparable to what we had here 20 years ago. And, of course, our progression system is totally different.

 

Ours is a medium sized 3 day show in the summer with 9 rings and 3000-3500 runs a day. There are 7 grades of dog for each of the 3 sizes (Small, Medium and Large) and we give 4 runs a day for each of them. Bigger shows usually give 3 runs. There is a maximum of 450 dogs a day that each judge can take in a day.

 

Shows can put on whatever classes they choose depending on resources, facilities and manpower. There just isn't the time or space to give people multiple options.

 

Veterans or Any Size/Allsorts classes are not mainstream classes and many shows cannot physically schedule them. (The KC doesn't have a view on them one way or another.) They are Special classes and if a show does put them on they can choose the rules for themselves and they can give what awards they think fit. Some choose to give clear round rosettes only to reduce the element of competition so that non mainstream dogs can have a fun run without pressure.

 

We do shoehorn them in and we give rosettes and trophies as in any other class for those that want them, but many don't want them. I had to catch up with the guy who won our last Veterans class to give him his trophy and rosette as he wasn't bothered about prizes. There are plenty of sponsored competitions with qualifiers and national finals, just not one for Veterans at present, although there used to be. Obviously noone feels strongly enough about the issue to drum up sponsorship.

 

The sniping and complaints come from the sort of people who think the world should be adjusted to suit them and because the host show chooses the rules there is more chance that someone will try to force a change in their favour. That sort exists in every walk of life. They aren't in the majority but they shout the loudest. Yes, it is sad and pathetic, but most handlers who enter such classes are just the same as you. It's a fact of life that with the numbers we have taking part there will be some pias amongst them.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

If you read her add she says she has "short" and "tall" pups left. I would bet she isn't selling mini BCs but chondrodysplastic (dwarf) BCs. You see them more in the show lines, but they do exist in the breed.

 

There are a few dwarf collies on the agility scene here but they don't do as well as the small but normally proportioned ones. It's often assumed that any dog with unusually short legs is a corgi or JRT x but I doubt it.

 

Pam

[alligande]

We had a small foster dog stay with us for a few days, she weighed no more than 30lbs I did not measure her, but compared to Brody who measures 20.5 she was tiny, and compared to my giant Rievaulx it seemed like she could walk under him. She was not an AKC dog, just a small lean smoothy.

I have seen small AKC dogs, a couple I know are smaller than an oversized sheltie, in the case of these dogs, the owner did not intentionally breed a small dog.

[MrSnappy]

Just curious, how much does Piper weigh?

 

My Border Collies tend to run quite small. I have a bitch that is barely 27 lbs (well muscled) and a dog who is barely 33 (also in great shape). People look at me funny when I tell them that they are purebred, the bloodline just tends to throw smaller dogs. It was especially hard to convince them of that when Flyboy was still alive. He was at least 4 inches taller at the shoulder and nearly 60 lbs in his prime.

 

Piper weighs between 28-31 lbs, depending. Totally off topic, but I found through trial and error that she doesn't pass out when playing hard if she has some bit of bulk to her. So while I prefer lean dogs, I keep an extra layer on Piper to be safe. She is over 8 years old now and people still tend to think she is a puppy because of her size ... unless we are out with the WooTWoo, because they are even smaller than she is, so she doesn't appear so diminutive, relatively speaking.

 

Dexter is just over 22" but thin as a rake and something like 42lbs. Nobody ever thinks he is as tall as he is, because he's in a permanent crouch waiting for something interesting to happen. He was flirting with a friends' parents 'Labradoodle' on a walk the other day (he's still intact) so he was all upright and tall eared and my friend said "I don't think I've ever seen Dexter standing upright for an extended period before" ;-)

 

Back in the day when I had Abi and Briggs, nobody believed either one was a purebred border collie - because Briggs was a red tri, and Abi was mostly white with black and brown spots, and they didn't look like the border collies everyone recognized as such (sitting with them is my roommate's 'pippet' a whippet X pitbull I picked up for her at the shelter I worked for at the time).

 

 

Pam, in the AAC every class that is offered is open to dogs jumping any height. Meaning if there is a Masters Jumpers Class, as an example, they run Regulars (all heights - 26, 22, 16, 10 and 6) and then Specials and Vets. Nobody would think to eliminate classes for the older or performance dogs. And I am glad of it. I absolutely love running Tweed in Vets - he and I are a great partnership, and I can't imagine competing in an organization that doesn't recognize the many years of teamwork the older dogs have participated in.

 

On handler's dog, several years ago, suffered some sort of event that caused him to be paralyzed in the hind end, and he was in a canine wheelchair. At one trial, they removed the bars from a Jumpers course and let them run the course with the dog in his cart. Loius was so happy to be playing, it was palpable to the audience. Not a dry eye in the house. Of course it was an FEO run, but the fact that the trial accommodated Louis and his handler is the kind of thing that makes me love the people who host our trials.

 

RDM

[border_collie_crazy]

Nobody ever thinks he is as tall as he is, because he's in a permanent crouch waiting for something interesting to happen

 

lol that sounds familier! when Happy competed in flyball EVERYONE insisted that she should be the height dog "because she's so small!" Happy is 21" tall, she was one of the tallest dogs in the club! but she's always in a crouch making her look smaller then the 17-18" dogs even the girl who owns Happys brother..who is the same size as Happy but stands up tall...looked at me like I was the biggest idiot on earth when I said Happy is the same size as her dog lol

[MrSnappy]

I was curious myself after reading this, so i decided to do some research and i found a person on facebook selling "Mini Border Collies"

 

Mini Border Collie Puppies

 

Those aren't border collies though; those are border collie X poodles that someone has cleverly prefixed "mini" to in order to get some attention for her mutts.

 

There was a woman in WA claiming to breed mini border collies for a while there, but I guess it's easy to say that to someone when they are puppies. I never hear about her anymore, so perhaps her "mini" border collie puppies grew up to be regular sized dogs and put an end to that :L) Who can say?

 

RDM