Drinking and peeing

[BC-Liz]

Hi all...I've been pretty absent for a while. Just sorta fell out of habit of checking the boars so often. I know I can always come back here and probe the awesome knowledge of the boards though. So, here I am, with another issue in tow.

 

Long story short, Gunnar has lost weight (about 3 lbs in 4 months and he was not fat to begin with) and drinks an excess of water and then has a hard time controlling his bladder.

 

We woke up to him peeing on his bed (fully awake and lifting his leg mind you, and no it wasn't a territory thing and his mess smelled diluted) last week and took him to the vet yesterday to have him checked. He's had 2 prior incidents where he wasn't able to hold it to get outside. His urine, fecal and blood tests all game back very, very clean.

 

He's on purina pro plan, which he has been on before and done fine with. He has a good appetite and always seems to be hungry lately. We think he is to blame for draining the water bowl while we're out of the house and the pups are locked up in the bonus room. A weird thing about that in particular is if the water bowl is half way full or more, it'll be drained when we get home, if it's a little less than half way or less, there will still be water left in it when we get home (generally speaking).

 

I'm thinking we just haven't been feeding him enough and he's developed a lovely OCD for drinking all the water. The vet couldn't find anything to support bladder stones (no crystals in his pee) but said that that could possibly be a culprit, we'd have to get an Xray to rule that out completely.

 

Have any of you ever seen this before? Is Gunnar just bored out of his mind? We haven't been doing many brain exercises lately, just physical ones so perhaps that is it...

 

Thanks for the help...again

[nancy in AZ]

Excessive drinking, weight loss and change of appetite are symptomatic of a host of possible physical issues. How old is Gunnar? Have there been any changes in the quality of his coat?

[SecretBC]

My Luke can be OCD about water. For his entire life he's been like a camel -- He doesn't drink often, but when he does, he seems to think that he must drink until the container is gone. Doesn't matter the size, if I don't step in to stop him he'll keep drinking. This time of year snow is an issue. He'll eat snow until he pops.

 

Luke was diagnosed with Addison's Disease in Oct of 2009 and if anything he's gotten worse since then. Part of his treatment is to get a daily dose of Prednisone and to have salt added to his meals, so you can't blame him for being thirsty.

 

Even still, I've gone to limiting his water intake during the day when I have to leave them. Even with someone coming to let the dogs out mid-day, I've still come home several times to giant lakes of pee. One time the 3 gallon water bucket outside was 3/4 drained when I got home, so it was no doubt what caused that accident. Normally he doesn't drink the water indoors when nobody is home, but he drained that bowl one day and had an accident, so I no longer refill that bowl in the morning.

 

I spoke to several friends about this and everyone assured me that they leave their dogs without water all day without a problem. I figure he can drink as much as he wants once I get home, but we have to put an end to this massive water consumption when I have to leave them... I seriously go through an entire roll of paper towel each time he does it -- There is SO MUCH PEE.

[aljones]

I've got a dog with diabetes insipidus, and I feel your pain. We went through a lengthy process to get him diagnosed because, as Nancy already noted, these symptoms can indicate several different problems. DI is certainly not the most common one, but it is something to put on your radar as you investigate further.

[denice]

Several things come to mind. One is there has to be significant changes in the dog to show up in blood work. I am thinking like 1/3 of the kidneys need to be damaged before it shows up. Also thyroid is not sometimes tested for in a routine check, it is often something they add on so I would make sure that was looked at. I would consider switching foods and see if that has any effect, can't hurt. At least you could rule out diet as a cause. Another thought is to have blood work repeated after withholding water. He may be drinking enough to compensate for a slight problem, I have seen that before.

[gcv-border]

When I read your post, my first thought was diabetes incipitus (as suggested by aljones and denise). I have no personal experience, but my friend has a dog that drinks excessive amounts of water. The vet is now trying several tests/behavioral changes (like withholding water for a specified time) to determine if anything is wrong. It is not a straightforward diagnosis.

 

Jovi

[aljones]

When I read your post, my first thought was diabetes incipitus (as suggested by aljones and denise). I have no personal experience, but my friend has a dog that drinks excessive amounts of water.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but I just wanted to put in a plug for the DI Dogs Yahoo group: it's not a very busy listserv but generally a good source for info on DI and something your friend might want to check out, Jovi, if his or her dog is going through testing for DI.

[rushdoggie]

When I read your post, my first thought was diabetes incipitus (as suggested by aljones and denise). I have no personal experience, but my friend has a dog that drinks excessive amounts of water. The vet is now trying several tests/behavioral changes (like withholding water for a specified time) to determine if anything is wrong. It is not a straightforward diagnosis.

 

Jovi

 

DI is what jumped out at me too, had a wonderful Siberian girl who had it, took ages to get it diagnosed but once she was, a single pill (albeit an expensive pill) kept her happy and healthy for years.

[BC-Liz]

The vet said there was no sign of diabetes from the urine or blood test, and it was a full flood test, full panel, the whole shebang-here's-my-wallet-and-call-me-in-the-morning. That was one thing we were worried about. My husband's sister is a brand new vet and suggested the full panel to rule that out. Is DI something that won't show up in the blood at all and needs a different test?

 

Gunnar is just about to turn 5. He's still as energetic as ever but as you all know, it takes a lot to get a BC down. No change in the quality of his coat, nice and shiny. He's always dry around this time of year so his few flakes and itchines isn't abnormal.

 

Our vet feels we've essentially ruled everything out except bladder stones and those are unlikely (?). Even though there was no suggestion of those in the urinalysis either, she mentioned doing an Xray or unltrasound to completely rule them out.

 

Gunnar has an OCD about going outside. Outside = fun, and he always wants to have fun of course. If you so much as say outside, pee or potty he runs to the door and starts to whine ever so slightly (and high pitched). He developed a connection between farting and the word fart with the outdoors, I wonder if he made the same connection with drinking water (and thus having to pee). Like...water = pee, pee=outside, water=outside?

 

I'm hesitant to switch up his food, since we've discovered he and Rhea have a rice allergy and this pro plan just seems to work so well for all of them. If everything seems to be going in correctly, and coming out correctly (poo champion), then is it a reasonable conclusion that we can rule out something going wrong with his metabolism of the food?

 

I seriously hate not knowing what's going on with them. For now, we're thinking of just upping his food and monitoring his weight on a weekly or bimonthly basis.

 

I'll look into this DI thing. Thanks and if anyone else has had experience, please, I'd love to hear it.

[rushdoggie]

I don;t think DI will show up in a blood test, we had to test the specific gravity of the urine and rule out other stuff, then started her on the DDAVP and as soon as we did her symptoms disappeared. This was several years ago, so I don;t know maybe there's a test now.

 

I had to order the DDAVP in tablet form from a special pharmacy somewhere.

[aljones]

Yeah, DI is its whole own ballgame--bloodwork doesn't help diagnose it. Instead, I think the usual process (and the one we followed) was to start by testing to eliminate the more common reasons for the excessive drinking and urinating. If you head down this path, be sure to read up on opinions concerning the water-deprivation test before you make a decision on that one.

 

Doing a DDAVP (desmopressin) trial is common to see if you're dealing with central DI, but some folks on the DI list report their dogs don't respond successfully to the pill form of DDAVP but do to the injections, so I wouldn't consider lack of response to the tablets a definitive answer, either. And there is also a nephrogenic form of DI, too. It's a pretty big headache, diagnostic-wise. My dog is our vet's first case of it, and she's been in practice over two decades. So it's not something most vets have experience with.

 

Good luck figuring out what's going on with Gunnar. I know it's frustrating to have these particular symptoms to deal with.

[BC-Liz]

I don;t think DI will show up in a blood test, we had to test the specific gravity of the urine and rule out other stuff, then started her on the DDAVP and as soon as we did her symptoms disappeared. This was several years ago, so I don;t know maybe there's a test now.

 

I had to order the DDAVP in tablet form from a special pharmacy somewhere.

 

Do you remember what her symptoms were exactly? Thanks. I've called my vet, waiting to get a call back to mention this to her.

[BC-Liz]

The more and more I read about DI the less I think that's the issue, thankfully. Still waiting to talk to my vet of course. A key phrase is repeated on almost every website I find, the dog's thirst is insatiable and with lack of water, the volume of pee does not decrease. But Gunnar isn't always at the water bowl, and when we tried to test him several weeks back, we left all 3 dogs in different rooms while we were at work instead of leaving them in the same room, he didn't touch the water at all. And when we know he hasn't had a ton to drink, he'll pee less. hhhmmmm I'll let you know what my vet thinks...

[Olivia]

I work for an internal medicine vet and we had a dog that we thought had DI in a few months ago and it was nuts to watch this dog drink. We couldn't leave water in her kennel at all b/c she would immediately drink and drink and drink til she would start to regurge the water and then drink more, regurge more, etc. etc. We had to go in and offer water every 30 min to an hour and watch her drink so she wouldn't overdo it. She was one sick dog though, wouldn't eat, vomiting, lethargic, drinking like crazy, bloodwork was all over the place.

 

I don't remember what her final diagnosis was (lepto maybe?) but we figured out that she OCD about the water. She was honestly thirsty but had grown afraid that her water would be taken away because that's what the previous vet did so she drank like crazy whenever she got water. I finally took her outside with multiple bowls of water and just allowed her to drink and regurge for about 20 minutes until she realized that she could leave the bowl and go sniff around and come back to it. After that we could leave water in her cage with her and she wouldn't overdo it.

 

I'm sure that's not terribly helpful but that's one experience I thought I would share. Have you have Gunnar checked for lepto? Good luck on your pursuit of a diagnosis! Good thoughts coming from TN!

[gcv-border]

I work for an internal medicine vet and we had a dog that we thought had DI in a few months ago and it was nuts to watch this dog drink. We couldn't leave water in her kennel at all b/c she would immediately drink and drink and drink til she would start to regurge the water and then drink more, regurge more, etc. etc. We had to go in and offer water every 30 min to an hour and watch her drink so she wouldn't overdo it. She was one sick dog though, wouldn't eat, vomiting, lethargic, drinking like crazy, bloodwork was all over the place.

 

I don't remember what her final diagnosis was (lepto maybe?) but we figured out that she OCD about the water. She was honestly thirsty but had grown afraid that her water would be taken away because that's what the previous vet did so she drank like crazy whenever she got water. I finally took her outside with multiple bowls of water and just allowed her to drink and regurge for about 20 minutes until she realized that she could leave the bowl and go sniff around and come back to it. After that we could leave water in her cage with her and she wouldn't overdo it.

 

I'm sure that's not terribly helpful but that's one experience I thought I would share. Have you have Gunnar checked for lepto? Good luck on your pursuit of a diagnosis! Good thoughts coming from TN!

 

I heard from my friend who has a Welshie that drinks excessive water. I think she and the vet, after the tests and behavioral changes, believe that it is not DI and is instead a behavioral quirk. Unlike what is described above, taking away the water (for only a few hours) seemed to help a bit. Actually she thinks that the size of the water bowl may have been a problem. If she puts out 2 little water bowls in different rooms, her dog doesn't overdo the water. She used to have a gigantic water bowl in the kitchen, and the dog would lie in front of the bowl and drink, drink, drink. It may have become a habit.

 

Jovi

[BC-Liz]

Talked to the vet, Gunnar's pee was too concentrated to be DI. Phew. It's probably just an ocd or quirk or something. We'll up his food and see if we can put some of those 3 lbs back on.

 

Olivia, we had the Lepto vaccine the last couple years so he should be ok with that at least.

 

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone. It's amazing how I can come on here, after quite a while of being absent, ask some random question and be flooded with good vibes and experience on the matter.

[rushdoggie]

oh, excellent news!

[mbc1963]

My dog has always been a camel, too - rarely drinks domestic water, but prefers to drink from the streams and ponds we visit outdoors. (Our water has a strong chlorine scent, which could be the reason.)

 

A few years ago, he started drinking a LOT - noticeably more than I had ever seen him drink. And he was peeing more. I took him to the vet, who ran all the bloodwork. People in here were suggesting diabetes insipidus, and I was worried about that.

 

Anyway... some time after the drinking started, Buddy stopped chewing hard food, even his favorite treats. So then I took him to the vet again, and the vet put him on an antibiotic just in case he had a bad tooth. Within 2 days of taking the antibiotic, the drinking stopped. The chewing got somewhat better, though I had a tooth pulled maybe 9 months later because the chewing had never returned to normal.

 

I never did figure out what the deal was with the drinking. I was wondering if Buddy had a sore throat because of a bacterial infection, and was drinking to sooth the pain?

 

Good luck, anyway. My mystery cure likely won't help you, but I wanted to point out that it could be a LOAD of things.

 

Mary

[aljones]

Glad to hear you've been able to cross DI off your list of suspects. As I'd mentioned, it's not a very common diagnosis but does present with the symptoms you described. Good luck getting things figured out, and I hope the food increase helps with his weight.

[sblock]

Just my two cents--my dog, a 5-year-old rescue BC, often drinks all the water in his bowl in a couple of minutes, and when we're out for walks, laps up puddle water like he just crossed the desert. Took me a while to realize that he had probably been deprived of water in the past and got in the habit of storing it up whenever he had the chance. Not sure if that applies to Gunnar, but it's one possible explanation for the behavior.

[BC-Liz]

Just my two cents--my dog, a 5-year-old rescue BC, often drinks all the water in his bowl in a couple of minutes, and when we're out for walks, laps up puddle water like he just crossed the desert. Took me a while to realize that he had probably been deprived of water in the past and got in the habit of storing it up whenever he had the chance. Not sure if that applies to Gunnar, but it's one possible explanation for the behavior.

 

Masi does that sometimes, and that may be why but Gunnar pretty much ignores water that's not in a stream or a water bowl. Even since my first post, things have gotten better. Maybe he knows we're wise to him? I think we'll weigh him next week or the week after to see if any of the weight has come back on.

 

Thanks everyone!

[border_collie_crazy]

not sure how bad yours is, but a few months ago Rusty reacted VERY strongly to a very sight, almost undectable UTI, he was drinking for 6 minutes straight at a time(I timed it) and doing it every 10-20 minutes! his pee was some kind of insane..he pee'd 3 times on the way to the car, 5 times in the waiting room at the vets office and exploded on the exam table..I dont think the vet totally comprehended what I meant by " a lot" until my 15lbs dog totally drenched the entire table AND the floor surrounding it in one go, AFTER he had just pee'd 8 times! when they tested the urin is was basicly water. a very slight UTI was the best they could come up with, gave the drugs and shot, figering it was a long shot, but it worked. dont know if you guy's is THAT extreme, but there is the possability that he's just having a very odd reaction to almost nothing.