training a border collie pup for cattle

[jill & ron]

We have a 5 mo old pup, Chloe. Have had her since she was 3 mos old. We have a cow herd, all cattle are quiet, never had a dog around before. We would like to train her for working the cattle. She has the instincts, nipping at tails & hooves, barking, however, there is no control. I am working obedience training with her:( heel, sit, stay on leash). She is out of control. Won't come when called, or when she does, makes a pass and dashes away without being touched. Also, will not stop barking and herding when told to. Especially dangerous for us, she wants to herd the new calves. New mothers don't take kindly to this practice. We have started taking her on leash in the mornings when we are doing chores. Her attention span is very short, won't focus on me, but on the cats and birds and anything else that moves??. We have considered using a shock collar to enforce commands, "bad" or "no". What do we need to do?

[colliemadcraig]

Im from England uk...i have a bc...shes not a working dog and i dont have any experience working dogs.but i have trained my dog to a very high level through reading books etc.but the reason i am replying is that using a shock collar is a big no no in my eyes.i have known of dogs to suffer heart attacks through using them...and dogs that become terrified after being shocked with a collar.i dont know the law from where you are but they are trying to ban shock collars over here.but this is only my opinion and i wanted to try and help with what i have learnt from them.good luck with what ever you deside..

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

More experienced people will help you with specifics but I do know that five months is way too young to start serious training. The shepherds say that a dog should have as many years as it has paws before you can really trust them. The dog will be working way before that but you'll have to put some serious effort into it. However, it will be well worth it, trust me!

[Howdyjabo]

Beccas right-- shes not really herding at that age- shes playing.

Best thing for right now is to keep her away from stock. All she will learn is bad habits.

 

At around 10 months-- find someone in your area that can help you get her started on goats or sheep-

You can do it on cattle at home--- but its alot easier on you, your stock and the dog to start on broke stock in a controlled environment.

 

Work on the basic obedience till then- Sit, stay and a solid recall. You are first in and out of doors or gates. She follows you instead of leading you(ie relaxed heel- don't gear it up so she spends the whole time looking at you).

Avoid useing treats for training-- it just makes them obsessive.

 

Alot more to it than heres stock go to it......

But the efforts pays back 10 fold.

[Howdyjabo]

Oh yeah...... a shock collar is not a training tool.

Get that idea out of your head-- some people will tell you that they can use it to train --but its like making a robot out of your dog- you won't like the end result as much.

[Smokjbc]

Especially dangerous for us, she wants to herd the new calves. New mothers don't take kindly to this practice. We have started taking her on leash in the mornings when we are doing chores. Her attention span is very short, won't focus on me, but on the cats and birds and anything else that moves??. We have considered using a shock collar to enforce commands, "bad" or "no". What do we need to do? >>>

 

I doubt an e-collar will help you with your pup. In fact, I think the situation is hopeless- she is obviously not going to make it as a cow dog. - I will be happy to relieve your situation and take the pup into my home free of charge.

 

Please email me privately to arrange for me to take this little beast off your hands.

[Eileen Stein]

Jaime, shame on you! Jill & Ron, don't let Jaime snooker you out of this pup. She's too young yet for training on stock, but she's showing the right stuff so far.

 

Not being a cattle person, I'm not familiar with the cattledog training tapes, but I wonder if any of the cattledoggers would share their opinions about them. Are there any videotapes that would be useful in helping these folks get started?

[jill & ron]

Thanks for all your help! OUr puppy is definitly an important part of our family now. Wouldn't let her go any more than I would let one of the kids go. I would be very interested in any tapes or books that will help us with her training. I participeted in dog obedience classes in my 4-H days, so I know what I'm doing with that, however, I will need a lot of help with the rest of her education. As for keeping her away from the cattle now, not an option. The cows are only at the home farm for calving, Jan thru April, then it's back to pasture. I've gotten a lot of different opinions from people about the care of a BC. Some say that she should be kenneled during the day. We let her run free at our home place, approx 3 acres, all fenced so she does have boundaries. Will it just take time and patience to get out of the puppy stage with the short or non-existent attention span?

[Miztiki]

Let me say first off that I've never used my dogs for herding.

 

Let me also say that your post ALARMS me on many levels.

 

I love Border Collies and want nothing more for them than to be raised in a fair environment and given half a chance to prove themselves. That said, take anything I say from here on out in the spirit it is intended.

 

A 5 month old pup is just a baby and has no right running around cattle and nipping at them. It's dangerous. It's stupid. It teaches the pup bad habits. Please don't let her do that anymore.

 

BC's are the herding guru's but you can't just throw one into a pasture and expect them to herd them naturally. It just doesn't happen that way.

 

PLEASE do not use a shock collar on her!!! What exactly do you hope to gain by entertaining such an idea? Chances are, you'll ruin her if you use one. Please, don't do it.

 

Slow down, take a step back, and remember that she's a baby still. She needs to learn the basics before she is given a job like herding cattle.

 

If you love her and want her to adjust to her new life with you, and if you want her to work cattle in the future , then please stick around, read the posts, ask questions, get books, meet other BC people... Please don't do things out of ignorance (like many of us have) that you will later regret.

 

I think there's a whole lot more to it than you realize.

 

Please let me welcome you to the BC forum and let me encourage you to become an active participant. Border Collies are tremendous dogs with unbelievable potential in so many areas, and your girl Chloe can make you so proud and happy, but you have to know what steps will bring that about - and they're steps, not leaps and bounds.

[Miztiki]

Wait, I'm not done.

 

How much do you know about Border Collies?

 

They are very social animals. They NEED human interaction. They won't do well at all if left in the yard with little human interaction.

 

They are very sensitive, "soft" dogs. They don't take to harsh corrections very well. What might be an average correction for another breed would be too strong for most BC's.

 

BC's NEED mental stimulation just as much, or more, than actual physical exercise.

 

Most BC's can get over a 6 foot fence if they want. Did you know that?! :eek: When she gets bigger, you might go outside one day and find her gone.

 

BC's are weird. They have obsessive-compulsive tendencies. They freak over thunder, vacuums, cars, ceiling fans... If their needs are not met, these tendencies can get much worse.

 

They NEED a "job" to do. That job can be lots of things besides herding, but they do need to feel like they are doing something important.

 

Ok, that's it for tonight, I'm going to bed.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Why not?

[Howdyjabo]

Without a doubt she should be contained when she is not under your dirrect supervision.

She has INSTINCTS(and your first post already shows she is turned on)- unlike any other dog you have probably had. She is DRIVEN to do something with those instincts.

She will find something to do and chances are unless its under supervision it will be distructive and/or put her in harms way.

 

Believe it or not Border Collies LIKE being kenneled. Its like a "time out" place for them to relax their brain.

[jill & ron]

Originally posted by jill & ron:

We have a 5 mo old pup, Chloe. Have had her since she was 3 mos old. We have a cow herd, all cattle are quiet, never had a dog around before. We would like to train her for working the cattle. She has the instincts, nipping at tails & hooves, barking, however, there is no control. I am working obedience training with her:( heel, sit, stay on leash). She is out of control. Won't come when called, or when she does, makes a pass and dashes away without being touched. Also, will not stop barking and herding when told to. Especially dangerous for us, she wants to herd the new calves. New mothers don't take kindly to this practice. We have started taking her on leash in the mornings when we are doing chores. Her attention span is very short, won't focus on me, but on the cats and birds and anything else that moves??. We have considered using a shock collar to enforce commands, "bad" or "no". What do we need to do?

[jill & ron]

Responding to our fence and boundries for Chloe. We have only approx 3 acres at our home, also live right on a gravel road. Some of the locals travel WAY too fast with a lot of grain truck traffic in spring and fall. All but a small section of frontage is enclosed with woven wire and 2 barb fence, and all has a hot wire in addition. We extended the hot wire to dog height to cover the unfenced frontage, including our lane. After running into the fence about 3 times when she first came to live with us, she won't go within 20 feet of the low hot wire. This may sound cruel, however, it was that or her life. As for "keeping her away from the cattle, not an option", we are VERY crowded here at calving time, without keeping her in the house, on leash, or locked in the lvstck trailer(we don't have a kennel yet) all the time, we can't keep her away from the cattle. Most of the time she is out alone she does not bother the cattle, she usually only shows interest when we are around the cattle. Since we started getting calves, she stays indoors or is leashed during a.m. chores when there is more going on with the pairs. We have 2 groups of pregnant cows that we turn into a small lot for feeding once a day. We let her help chase them out when they are done eating. As I said, our cows are very quiet, many have been shown by the kids in 4-H shows, and so far we have tried to halter all keeper heifers as yrlings(makes AIing and working them alot easier) Except for a stubborn one now and then, we usually can corral them by using their gluttony against them. Chloe is not going to be used as a herding dog on large scale in wide open spaces. No, I don't know a lot abour border collies, but am learning all the time. Visits to the library are getting limited results. Am now reading a book by Jon Katz, and since have learned yelling and excitement are not a good thing, so we are trying to use positive commands and voice tones. At this time, she is not alone on the farm all day very often. We are also SE contractors, so things are slow now except for the occasional days of trucking ag lime. By the time construction season gets in full swing, the kids should be home more.

[jill & ron]

As a post script. The shock collar we have has tone also. THe plans for using it is not at a replacement for training. Chloe has begun chasing the vehicles, making circles around them. When driving a dump truck, you simply cannot see her running in front. Her play with the cats also gets somewhat rough. For her safety, we need a very definite recognition of the NO command, so far she pays no attention. We are very careful when leaving the yard, and when we get within 20 ft of the hot wire across the lane, she stops circling. Our concern is others ie. the meter reader, or visitors won't be as careful or as patient as we are when leaving the yard.

[Eileen Stein]

Please, PLEASE don't take training advice from Jon Katz. Please, trust me on this.

 

As I said before, I have no experience training dogs to work cattle, but Martin Penfold's video called "Starting Border Collies on Cattle, Sheep or Ducks," which you can get through http://www.ruralroutevideos.com , seems quite good to me and would probably be helpful to get you started. Also, if you go to the Border Collies in Action website at http://www.bordercollies.com/ and click on "Books" you will find some very useful books dealing with the basics of starting a working dog.

 

Best of all would be if you could find an experienced stockdog person to give you some help. If you tell us where you're located, perhaps we could suggest someone.

 

I won't argue with you about whether a hotwire was necessary to keep Chloe out of the road -- you're on the scene and I'm not -- but if you use electric shock routinely to deal with behaviors that you could modify in other ways (even though it might take more time and effort to use those other ways), you are almost certain to pay a price for it in terms of making your dog harder and less responsive to you. I second what Miztiki said about border collies being sensitive dogs -- "command-presence" volume, harsh corrections and effusive praise can all be sensory overload for them. To train effectively it's essential to make a connection with them. Every behavioral problem she has is IMHO an opportunity for you to deepen your relationship with her and accustom her to looking to you for direction, if you deal with it through training and not just shocking her. When you get into livestock training and work with her later, you will be much better off if you have taught her to respond to you.

 

But having said that, I'll defer to others who are better qualified to give you advice here.

[Howdyjabo]

I know you don't want to hear this-- But I'm gonna try one more time-- Chain the dog up. AT five months old you are just expecting too much from her.

 

When someone else is leaving in a vehicle and you are out with the dog you can put the dog on a long cord let her get to the end of it and give herself a flip --then you blast the fire out of her(depending on the dog its from talking rough to her all the way to being physical-- you are looking for the reaction "oh shit").

Then also have the people leaving in the vehicle stop and get out and blast her. At the same time call her back to you.

Make chaseing cars an unpleasant experience-- and yes I know that the shock collar would do it faster and easier but as Eileen says you will not be building a personal bond that you will NEED latter.

pS the line works on the cats too.

 

Basically let her commit to the act-- then makes sure she regrets it.

 

Both are cases where she needs to be put up--- if you are not there to deal with it EACH AND EVERY TIME.

Persistance pays off- stay at it.

And chain the dog up!!!!!!!!

 

Good Luck

[jimahall]

I am not an expert on training, but have worked with cattle and border collies. I would never use a shock collar. My best suggestion is to gop to Wal-Mart and get a cable kit. It will strtch out to about 20' with a 10 or 15' attached cable. We keep one up just for that special escape artist. It also comes in handy for the dog that will not take a leash. we recently had a large male that refused the leash. He would snap at us everytime we placed the leash on him. I purchased a muzzle. The muzzle was for the short trip from his kennel to the cable. After two weeks on the cable, with me leading him daily with the cable, he is now leash trained. Matter of fact, I led him last week over the entire ten acres pasture with no problems.

 

As for a training program: try Mike Hubbards videos from Border Collies in Action www.bordercollies.com

 

Product ID: 991 Category: Videos

Training Your Dog For Cattle

Description: By Mike Hubbard. A tape for training your dog to specifically work cattle.

Price: $39.95

 

A five month old is still very green. I like using used gallon milk jugs as play chews. When one gets worn, you add a new one. A BC pup needs to stay occupied and busy. Also try checking your library for "The Farmer's Dog" by John Holms and "Herding Dogs" by Bruce Fogt. The most important is to never allow a stockdog to "work" stock without you supervising. Definetly find a local farmer/rancher that has a stockdog (any breed). Ask questions. And though they mean well, I would let what agility folks say go in one ear and out the other as far as stock work. Though for basic obedience they are very informed. A well trained agility dog, that is "turned on" to stock can be very useful. Another video that may help is the movie "Babe" about the pig working sheep. It deals with the basics in a humerous way. There are several Yahoo groups dedicated to working farmdogs. Consider joining them. Definetly get the Border Collies in Action Catalog ASAP.

 

Best of luck to you and your pup! Hall Farms

[Denise Wall]

Another video that may help is the movie "Babe" about the pig working sheep.

Give me a break, Jim. That is not a useful video for learning to train working dogs.

 

And though they mean well, I would let what agility folks say go in one ear and out the other as far as stock work.

Only one agility person has replied. Several working people here have given sound advice. Karen (KillerH) for example is an experienced working cattle dog trainer.

[J. Williams]

"...Especially dangerous for us, she wants to herd the new calves..."

 

This is especially dangerous for your dog.

 

I would agree with what many have said here, if you truly intend to raise your pup as a solid working dog, you need control all access to stock and definitely need to put her up when you are not in a position to supervise her AND control her actions (i.e., if you know she will get in with the cow/calves, you need to prevent it, not wait until it happens, and then try to "fix" it).

 

I've never used a shock collar, and while there may be the rare exception where the collar can be used successfully as a last resort, none of the situations you've mentioned even come close to qualifying.

 

As far as having an option to keep her away from cattle - there are plenty, and several have been noted. The stock trailer you mention can work fine until you're able to provide a kennel, just be sure to provide the basics such as a warm sleeping area, food, water, a chew toy or two and plenty of interaction/exercise time.

 

Although I work/trial my dogs on cattle, I, like many, start my youngsters on sheep, then move to bucket calves to allow the dogs safe transition time to learn how work cattle while minimizing the risk of getting kicked or plowed under - something you won't be able to teach on grown cattle, let alone cow/calf pairs.

 

Finally, don't limit yourself to just "cattle" tapes and videos, stockmanship and good dog work can be learned from many sources, such as Derek Scrimgeour's The Shepherd's Pup, as well as Elvin Kopp's Training the Working Stockdog (both are available at Border Collies in Action).