several general questions

[MaggieDog]

Reading thru some of the posts here has brought up some questions.

 

For those who haven't seen my other posts, my BC Maggie was just started on sheep a few weeks ago and has had 3 lessons so far. We're working with an all breed AKC trainer, but will most likely be switching to a handler who runs BCs in non AKC trials. So far Maggie has a pretty good fetch and is just starting on baby outruns. She can flank decently from either direction, though she prefers going to her left. She is still pretty barky and does grip when she first gets onto the field, but we're working on that. I saw a few flickers of eye at our last lesson.

 

Its funny to see her work compared to the shelties who are also working with our current trainer - she's just slightly behind a dog that's been training for about 2 *years*!! Now I understand why instinct and breeding for working rather than show is soooo important; the dog that's been training for so long had almost no instinct when they started and had to spend several months just playing with sheep to get anything to work with.

 

I'd love to eventually trial Maggie, but even if I don't I still want to teach her the best I can. Here are my questions:

 

I've heard about whistles; when should I start thinking about using one? My current trainer only uses verbal commands/directions, but I'm finding it hard to use and prefer a clearer, faster cue.

 

If you use whistles to direct your dog, does it have to be using an actual whistle you put in your mouth or can it just be a normal whistle (w/o an extra piece of equipment, just your lips)? Right now Maggie's release to sheep is a two tone whistle and that's working so much better than using another word.

 

How do you get your dogs to work out from the stock? Maggie likes being up close and personal and thus puts too much pressure on the sheep and I end up getting stepped on. Right now I use a rake to control her movements w/ an occasional toss near her to tell her to back off, but it seems to be too much of a correction as she is very tuned into me and very soft I think.

 

Any books to suggest? I'd like to get some good background info on herding training and some details of the actual process to supplement my weekly lessons.

 

Thanks.

[juliepoudrier]

MaggieDog,

I'll take a stab at some of your questions:

 

Originally posted by MaggieDog:

Reading thru some of the posts here has brought up some questions.

 

For those who haven't seen my other posts, my BC Maggie was just started on sheep a few weeks ago and has had 3 lessons so far. We're working with an all breed AKC trainer, but will most likely be switching to a handler who runs BCs in non AKC trials. So far Maggie has a pretty good fetch and is just starting on baby outruns. She can flank decently from either direction, though she prefers going to her left. She is still pretty barky and does grip when she first gets onto the field, but we're working on that. I saw a few flickers of eye at our last lesson.

 

Its funny to see her work compared to the shelties who are also working with our current trainer - she's just slightly behind a dog that's been training for about 2 *years*!! Now I understand why instinct and breeding for working rather than show is soooo important; the dog that's been training for so long had almost no instinct when they started and had to spend several months just playing with sheep to get anything to work with.

I've seen similar instances where conformation-bred border collies have been in training for years and can still barely make it around a pro-novice course.

 

I'd love to eventually trial Maggie, but even if I don't I still want to teach her the best I can. Here are my questions:

 

I've heard about whistles; when should I start thinking about using one? My current trainer only uses verbal commands/directions, but I'm finding it hard to use and prefer a clearer, faster cue.

 

If you use whistles to direct your dog, does it have to be using an actual whistle you put in your mouth or can it just be a normal whistle (w/o an extra piece of equipment, just your lips)? Right now Maggie's release to sheep is a two tone whistle and that's working so much better than using another word.

You can train whistle commands any time you like. Lots of folks train with voice first and then add whistles in, but there's no reason you couldn't start off directly with whistles. The problem with whistling with just your mouth is that your whistles likely won't carry over great distances. Many handlers who use their fingers to whistle will, up close, just use there mouths (no fingers), but in close they need only a softer whistle, so carrying power is irrelevant. At 300+ yards you might find it hard to get your whistle to carry if you are just whistling with your mouth alone.

 

 

How do you get your dogs to work out from the stock? Maggie likes being up close and personal and thus puts too much pressure on the sheep and I end up getting stepped on. Right now I use a rake to control her movements w/ an occasional toss near her to tell her to back off, but it seems to be too much of a correction as she is very tuned into me and very soft I think.

Yes, you do have to be careful with corrections. It is possible to push a dog too wide and then you'll have problems when you need to dog to work in close.

 

When Maggie is pushing the sheep over you, what are you doing? Young dogs take miles and miles of running backward. Ideally you want her to go around the sheep and balance behind them and bring them to you. While all this is happening, you shouldn't be standing still. You should be moving. Backward. She may still bring the sheep too fast, but you can always turn to the right or left (which will prevent the sheep from running over you), to which she should flank around to once again be on balance and bringing the sheep toward you as you back up. With a young/novice dog, I wouldn't be doing a lot of "get out" or tossing things at them. For one thing, putting pressure on a tight dog to get out can actually backfire in that the pressue you put on the dog causes it to be even more tense and thus even tighter and faster. Larger groups of sheep will move more slowly, so try working her on 10 or more sheep rather than 4 or 5.

 

At a trial recently I held out for the lower classes, and I was really dismayed by the number of dogs in those classes who seemed to be completely cranked down. They ran out with no enthusiasm, weren't much for pushing the sheep down the field or getting them off the fence--they just struck me as not really wanting to be there. That's what you want to avoid with Maggie. Of course you don't want her eating sheep, but you don't want to dampen her enthusiasm either. Have you tried just growling at her when she gets too pushy? If she understands corrections, then a growl or using the word "time" or "steady" in a growly voice may serve to slow her down a bit.

 

 

Any books to suggest? I'd like to get some good background info on herding training and some details of the actual process to supplement my weekly lessons.

 

Thanks.

Bruce Fogt's "Lessons from a Stockdog," Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs" or his videos ("A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies" and the new one about starting young dog). Lots of people like Julie Simpson's "The Natural Way." Another video that people seem to like is "Starting your dog on Cattle, Sheep, and Ducks." Vergil Holland's "Herding Dpgs: Progressive Training" is another popular book that deals with a variety of herding breeds. All of these are available from Geri Byrne at Border Collies in Action ( http://www.bordercollies.com ).

 

J.