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D'Elle

Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....

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I have almost decided to get a new puppy. Just needs my signature and the deopsit to finalize.

 

It's been a tough decision to make, as I have not done this before. Every dog I have ever had in my life has been a rescue, and for many years I thought I would never even consider getting a puppy from a breeder, because of my involvement in BC rescue and strong beliefs in adopting dogs from rescues. But I have not found the right puppy in rescue yet and although there are many great young dogs that come along, I want to have the chance, just once in my life, to raise a baby from the start. My goal is primarily an excellent companion dog, but I also intend to take agility classes (not with the intention of competing), and of course to do Canine Musical Freestyle. Jester is now 9 and I want to get a puppy while he is still young enough that the livliness of the pup will be fun for him rather than an annoyance in old age.

 

I am hoping that my work as a foster home and my history of always adopting dogs from rescues kind of justifies my buying a puppy just once. :-)

 

I am writing in here to ask for referrals from people on great sources of information on puppy raising and training. I am completely commited to clicker training, and I know how to train adult dogs. My two BCs helped me a lot when I was fostering a puppy for 2 months early this year, so I know they will be a big help. But the truth is, I have not reared my own puppy since I was 12 years old, and back then I knew nothing that did not involve a choke chain! I want to do all the right things with this puppy.

 

Books.....websites.....articles...blogs....puppy forums..... anywhere I can get good advice would be much appreciated. I have three months, aproximately, to get ready, as the pup will probably come home to me at the end of the year. I am buying from a breeder recomended by a woman who teaches and who trials her dogs.

 

Any recomendations will be most welcome.

D'Elle

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I am buying from a breeder recomended by a woman who teaches and who trials her dogs.

 

Congrats on getting a puppy! How exciting! Do tell! What's the breeding on the pup?

 

Jodi

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Congrats!

 

Paul Owens The Dog Whisperer (quite different from C. Milan) is pretty nice and there are things about Ian Dunbar's Before and After Getting your Puppy (I think that's the title) that were useful as well (some of his suggestions were too regimented for my tastes).

 

Having your older dogs will also be a plus.

 

Just be prepared that they need to pee about 5x more often than you think they'll need to :rolleyes:

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Congrats on getting a puppy! How exciting! Do tell! What's the breeding on the pup?

 

Jodi

 

The breeder's website is here: http://www.chaosstockdogs.com/

She is not the breeder that was originally recomended to me, but rather someone breeding from the same line. Double M Stockdogs was the breeder recomended to me, but Molly Wisecarver, that breeder, recomended Mandy Pilgrim at Chaos to me, as she said it would be the same line as if I got a pup from her.

 

Thanks for the congrats! Excited and a little nervous, I am. Of course I want to do everything just right, and know I will make mistakes anyway. When I get too nervous I look at my two adult dogs, who although I didn't raise them from puppyhood, are my best friends and my family, and re the lovliest companions one could ever have. So I probably won't mess up too badly!!

D'Elle

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So excited for you. I know Molly very well; also met Mandy. She is usually the stock handler at the trials. I love Mandy's Guiness. Let us know what you get from her and send photos. Molly and Mandy also have Aussies. My Sam is related to Molly's Gus. Hope we meet at some of the AZ events. We live in Willcox.

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I wish I could look at the website, but the music is terribly irritating!

 

RDM

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I wish you would consider non AKC registered working border collie puppies instead.

This bears repeating. Have you read the thread about working homes vs. pet homes? Hate to sound snarky, but anything registered with the ACK is not really a

"stockdog."

A

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What are we doing wrong when even long time members don't "get it" :rolleyes:

 

My thoughts as well. Exactly when the National Finals are in progress, someone who has been a member since 2002 and posted 436 times writes about a breeder like that. Maybe she is pulling our legs. I hope so.

 

Penny

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What are we doing wrong when even long time members don't "get it" :rolleyes:

 

 

The problem here is that we have an Open USBCHA handler recommending an AKC breeder.

 

I'm fighting influence of this same person here and it's hard to explain the difference when it's another Open handler. It's very frustrating that someone who must know better caters to the AKC crowd.

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Well, there are open handlers, and then there are open handlers...while I understand the need to make a living, there are just some things that are NEVER worth the money. But, I agree, a member since '02, and STILL doesn't get it?!?!?! :rolleyes:

A

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Folks, first of all, please do not slam me. I am actually very afraid even to send in this reply, but I want to stay a member of this board and do not want to be afraid to post. I am not a confrontational person. Equally,I am not stupid and it is not that I "don't get it". I was taken aback by the fact that her dogs are AKC registered. But I asked her about it and she said that she feels that she wants to work from inside the AKC to try to change things. While I am pessimistic that anything in the AKC will ever change, I can only applaud anyone who is trying to change things there. Now please don't expect me to defend this breeder, and please don't attack her for registering with AKC when she is not here to defend herself.

 

I visited with a friend about this and she explained to me that she is registering her young BC with AKC, NOT to show in conformation, but just so that she can compete in AKC agility trials when they are nearby. I feel that, if you actually have a good stock dog, or are breeding from good stock dogs, registering them with the AKC will not make them into bad dogs. Personally, I will not register the puppy with the AKC, because I do not approve of what they do and I won't support them. But Chaos Stockdogs is not breeding "Barbie Collies", and appears to be my best bet for getting a good puppy without leaving the state.

 

I am just someone who wants to buy a nice BC puppy, and this kennel is where I was sent by the people recomending to me. I need the recomendation because I don't train my dogs on sheep and don't go to trials and don't know the breeders. The recomendation came from someone who assures me that this line is serious stock-working and trialing dogs. If you do not agree with the breeder's decision to register with AKC, I have no argument with that. But I don't need to register, and I don't need to agree with her on that in order to get a good puppy from that line. I don't want to "boycott" her just because of that.....I would just be cutting my nose off to spite my face, it seems to me.

 

I know many of you will think I am wrong, and I don't mind being told you think I am wrong. But please don't get nasty about it, ok? As I have said in another thread, I don't want to start trouble. I don't want to argue. I have learned a lot from this forum and hope to continue to learn a lot from you folks. Please do not shut me out or lambast me over this. I am going to need your support in raising this puppy. Please.

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Hello D'Elle,

 

That was a polite, understandable response and I can see you thought your pup purchase through. However, I think you have fallen for some of the normal fallacies that many, if not all, AKC oriented breeders like to spout. The first of which is marketing their dogs as "serious stockdogs". They may work stock, but they are not serious stockdog unless they are either Open level trial dogs (not AKC level!!) or work on a legitimate livestock operation in such a fashion that they prove their value on a day to day basis. That does not mean they run the roping cattle up the arena chute either, VBG :rolleyes:. On this page, the trial results link doesn't work - what have these two dogs really done? The female has gotten one leg in started? The site says "watch for" the male in USBCHA trials - that right there tells you the breeder has no interest in comparing his talents to other border collies before breeding him.

 

Secondly, the "We'll work from within" just means that all the energy needed to train and develop a truly "serious stockdog" has been diverted to activities that are not conducive to that actually happening.

 

We are not trying to slam you, but point out that there are many breeders that are out there trying to improve the breed and it's not so hard to get a good pup from them with a little effort. Although I'm sure this breeder's intentions are not the same as a barbie collie breeders, they are contributing unproven dogs to the gene pool and by lowering the standard, we lower the quality overall of our breed.

 

I hope you had a chance to watch the Finals on webcast today. That type of performance does not come from dogs bred to be versatile, or to help "change the AKC" or to dabble in AKC trials. By purchasing a pup that has not been bred to work at that standard, you are saying that none of what the breed stands for mattesr.

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Thank you, smokjbc, for being kind and considerate in your reply.

I was steered to this breeder from the "grandmother" breeder of the same line, who, I have been told, is the best breeder for working border collies in AZ. If there's someone better, I have not heard the name. I do believe in breeding BCs only for their working ability. I just thought that that was what this breeder was doing.

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You can't have it both ways, the best of AKC and ABCA too....I can see that you're really really trying but you've missed the point.

 

I encourage you to look at www.usbcha.com, specifically:

2010 Nursery Qualified dogs: http://www.usbcha.com/2002%20Qualified%20Nursery%20Dogs.htm

2010 Open Points: http://www.westmark.com/~els/usbcha/stockd...ts/opnpts2.html

And, 1998-2009 Qualifying Points: http://www.usbcha.com/10%20-%201998-2009%2...ng%20Points.htm

 

Please tell me if either the breeder of your pups or the "recommending Open Handler" is listed anywhere, in any significance, in any of these lists.......the recommending Open Handler will appear on occasion but with nominal USBCHA points (ie. 1 or 2 pts). Anyone can go to and participate in a USBCHA trial....earning points across numerous trials, and not just any trials...trials of significance (with significant entries and significant recognition for difficult in course, # of entries and difficult sheep.......this is something difficult for non-stock non-working people to understand). At a quick glance, I see pts. earned one year at a 10 entry trial in AZ....there may be more in another year but I'd have to go back aways.

 

Nor do either the breeder or recommending Open Handler run a livestock operation of any significance beyond training some dogs.

 

I too am dismayed.....you have been here awhile and should know better.

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Granted D'Elle has been here a while but she was also fed the very smooth line from the ACK crowd. So, if you can't "leave" the state, "what" can we do to help you find a pup? How can we help you get a nice working (true) bred pup? Are you committed beyond backing out of this particular pup? If not, I think if everyone here steps up we may be able to help you.

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I too am dismayed.....you have been here awhile and should know better.

 

How should I "know better" when my energy is spent trying to make a living and trying my very best to make the best life I can for my dogs? I do not train on sheep. I would love to but cannot afford it. I don't have sheep. I only have an acre of land. I don't go to sheep dog trials, I am too busy trying to make enough money to support me and my dogs. I have no idea what the notations you quote even mean. But I make a good home for my border collies. I adore the breed. I do my best always to provide for my dogs what they need to be happy. And now I want to get a puppy. I followed the best advice I had at hand. I don't know anything about sheep or herding sheep or other livestock. I just know I love border collies, I take in border collies and foster them, and I am a good border collie dog mom. Honestly I am trying to do my best, and do not understand how I should know better. But if you say I should have you may be right. I do not know if that means that I should not get a puppy after all, or what.

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Jaime did a great job replying....much better than me.

Truthfully, it will take some effort and homework to find good working breeders in AZ. There are some but will be more difficult to find. You may need to broaden your search to nearby states.....given your stated needs "raising a puppy", "companion", "agility", "canine freestyle", I really don't see why you can't wait for a nice rescue puppy??? Especially since you are such a proponent of rescue. Puppies do come into rescue....but I guess you know that given your support of rescue.

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Granted D'Elle has been here a while but she was also fed the very smooth line from the ACK crowd. So, if you can't "leave" the state, "what" can we do to help you find a pup? How can we help you get a nice working (true) bred pup? Are you committed beyond backing out of this particular pup? If not, I think if everyone here steps up we may be able to help you.

 

Thank you, Journey...........................I have not sent in a deposit, and so am not committed yet. But if I am to change my mind and get a different pup, I would have to do so pretty much right now. And I want to get the pup in the winter. That is important if you live here because the summers are so warm. By the way, I "can" of course leave the state. It's just that travelling elsewhere is an issue because I have two dogs at home and no partner or neighbor to look after them.

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D'Elle, you should get a puppy. But get a nice one from working lines, not AKC pups. Regardless of the smooth talk you have heard, if a breeder is breeding to AKC standards in ANY form, they are not breeding for the work. Molly Wisecarver used to trial USBCHA when she lived in Southern California, but she's been off the trial circuit for the most part for many years. Many people find it too hard to stay competitive in USBCHA trials. That is because it is a TRUE TEST of the Border Collie's working ability....nothing like AKC's little bitty 'working test' that a well-trained beagle could win.

 

People on the boards here can steer you to nice ABCA working litters, if you are not already committed to a pup from this breeder.

 

Good luck,

 

Amy

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D'elle, would you be willing to consider another breeder if members here could get you some good contact information?

 

The AKC is a highly political, money hungry organization. And conformation/sport people have more $$$ (and thus more influence) then any sort of working person could ever had. The working folks tried to influence them before the BC was given limited registration. They tried to influence them before BCs had full registration. It didn't work. An

 

 

Before going any further I'd ask you to find yourself a copy of "The Dog Wars" and read it. And make your decision after that.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a puppy and no reason you shouldn't get one. And I know that you will do right by whatever dog you get. But one of the best ways to show your appreciation for the breed is to support those breeders who raise and train the breed to the high standards that a BC should be able to meet. Those are the ones who are really going to preserve the type of dog that we all love. And produce a pup that will be more than capable to train for whatever you wish to pursue with it.

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PM me and I can give you the name of someone with a litter on the way. I understand you are willing to change up at the last minute but you have to understand it might not be possible to find you a pup "right now". One can be found, but it will take time and effort on all parties involved. Are you adverse to having a pup flown into you? Do you have to meet the sire/dam/pup first?

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