Barbie Collie Herding

[BenjaminButton]

What do you guys think about Hob Nob Riding High?

 

 

Apparently from what I've read she's from 2 conformation dogs and did fairly well in USBCHA Open.

 

Opinions? Comments?

 

 

I don't support the conformation borders because I hate their structure, and heavy bone + coat, I just want some opinions.

 

 

 

Edit: You can see her points in open if you just google her registered name. I think it's on the Hob Nob website.

[Journey]

Trolls...where is the exterminator!

[njnovice]

The phrase "the exception does not prove the rule" comes to mind.

[Journey]

Knickers - Popcorn - Nachos

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Why don't you ask Hob Nob? It is her dogs you are talking about.

 

A lot of people have different opinions.....some you will like and some you won't

[Gloria Atwater]

Huh. I got curious and googled. The dog is aka Harley and belongs to Sandi Anderson of California. I know who Sandi Anderson is, and when I saw her at Pleasanton a couple weeks ago, she was trialing a little slick bitch named Liz.

 

But I do have to wonder if our troll isn't the author of This Article.

 

Interestingly, if you read down the comments under this article, the Hob Nob breeder herself weighs in with a disclaimer rather distancing herself from the author's spleen.

 

Even more interestingly, the article was apparently posted in 2007, re-posted in 2008 and then edited to reflect Finals scoring in 2009. Methinks the author has an agenda.

 

So, I guess we don't have a thing to say about Hob Nob Riding High, aka Harley. Have a nice day, Sir Troll.

 

I've got the chips and salsa. Anyone want?

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

P.S.

If anyone wants to read the Hob Nob breeder's response, it's actually worth a look. Search down the article's comments for Janice DeMello. This Troll definitely does not speak for her!

[njnovice]

I've got the chips and salsa. Anyone want?

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

Sure! I'd bring beer, but I only have one in the fridge.

[BenjaminButton]

I'm not the author of that article but I do wonder how often that happens.

 

For example in Aussies I know a lot of people that do conformation and herding as well and do well in both. Diamond Aire is a kennel that comes to mind. I just always wonder why there are no/few BC breeders that strive to do both.

 

Of course, all my BCs have been from either been from working breeders or rescued and I've never owned a show BC because my goals for my dogs are agility and disc. I want a dog that can work well with good structure.

 

Side Question: why are you guys calling me a troll? It's just a question....

[BenjaminButton]

Why don't you ask Hob Nob? It is her dogs you are talking about.

 

A lot of people have different opinions.....some you will like and some you won't

 

I didn't ask Hob Nob about her dog because I've talked with her before and she brags up her dogs a lot and doesn't really answer my question.

 

 

Edit: I just read Hob Nob's reply in that article. Quite interesting. She says she breeds a working dog but she doesn't seem to work them much. I don't think agility/obedience can count as working?

[jdarling]

There was another very lengthy thread on this topic a couple of years ago, but it seems it's either been deleted, or some very diligent moderating out of the names has made it difficult to find.

 

BB, after reading Jan's response on that ridiculous post, what specifically gives you the impression that this dog is out of "2 conformation dogs."

 

If this dog is the only one our senseless Standford slug can come up with in the last several years to try to prove his "point," I think it speaks for itself.

 

(Also, can we please stop bringing food and drink to threads such as these? We look as immature as the people that start them. Thanks.)

 

Sheeple rock.

[JaderBug]

Sheeple rock.

 

lol I love the term 'Sheeple'... so thankful Stanford introduced that phrase to me! Oh and 'Coyote Collie' too

[juliepoudrier]

Well the pedigree of the dam of that dog seems to be secret, but the sire's pedigree is available, and it's not pure conformation breeding, since the sire's sire has all sorts of ISDS dogs in his pedigree, not to mention an International Supreme winner (Bosworth Coon). Granted, the international winners are far back in the pedigree, but the ISDS dogs are not.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the dam is also not straight conformation bred, but with no pedigree in sight, we'll never know, unless Jan chooses to disclose that information.

 

But the point is that the dog in question, Harley, is *not* straight conformation bred, so the claim that strictly conformation bred dogs (at least one of them) can do well in USBCHA open is tenuous at best.

 

ETA: Well if I had gone to the linked article I would have found the dam's pedigree, which is here.

 

Check out the pedigree. While the dam herself may be a conformation chamption, all of the dogs behind her seem to be registered with working registries, including ABC, NASD, and ISDS. So once again, the claim that a strictly conformation-bred dog is trialing successfully in USBCHA open is a bunch of hooey. This appears to be a largely working-bred dog who happened to also manage to get a conformation championship. That's a far cry from a dog with nothing but conformation-bred dogs in the pedigree--as in an entirely different universe.

 

More ETA: Here's the sire's pedigree. Note that while there are conformation champions in the dam's half of the pedigree, the sire's side is working bred, after the show champion at the grandparent level.

 

J.

[BenjaminButton]

There was another very lengthy thread on this topic a couple of years ago, but it seems it's either been deleted, or some very diligent moderating out of the names has made it difficult to find.

 

BB, after reading Jan's response on that ridiculous post, what specifically gives you the impression that this dog is out of "2 conformation dogs."

 

If this dog is the only one our senseless Standford slug can come up with in the last several years to try to prove his "point," I think it speaks for itself.

 

(Also, can we please stop bringing food and drink to threads such as these? We look as immature as the people that start them. Thanks.)

 

Sheeple rock.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I just mean dogs that have done well in conformation, not necessarily full show line dogs. Actually I'm really glad working line dogs are dabbling a bit in conformation. They should prove that they can do it. I believe a BC can be conformationally correct and structurally correct as well as a great working dog! A BC can work and still look good.

 

Although Jan likes to brag up her dogs, I do like the build and speed of them although I would like to see them a bit more in herding. I also like the idea that she wants the dogs to be completely versatile including herding instinct, whether she's achieving it or not is a different matter.

 

I haven't actually met any show line BC yet and I've never seen someone try to work one. Are they really severely lacking in instinct and drive?

[jdarling]

What state do you live in, Ben?

[juliepoudrier]

I haven't actually met any show line BC yet and I've never seen someone try to work one. Are they really severely lacking in instinct and drive?

I have had two strictly show-bred dogs come out here for lessons, and both owners quickly realized that there was something seriously lacking in their working ability.

 

FWIW, and this has all been discussed before, when the AKC recognized the border collie, at least some old-time working dog breeders tried to cross over, but the big fallacy in thinking that you're making is this:

 

I believe a BC can be conformationally correct and structurally correct as well as a great working dog! A BC can work and still look good.

 

Because it implies that you're accepting that the AKC conformation standard (as judged by the AKC judges) is the de facto standard for a structurally correct working dog, and that simply may not be the case. The fact that any number of dogs bred to that standard in order to win conformation championships have lost some crucial parts of the whole working package would suggest that the conformation standard show people breed to does not, in fact, confer any sort of working ability.

 

ETA: If your goal is to have a conformation champion and also a top-notch working dog, your best chance of doing so is to go to working bred litters and try to choose a pup who most closely matches in looks what wins in dog shows. Also note that a determined person can put a conformation championship on just about any dog, so even if your working-bred dog isn't a perfect match to what wins at shows (note that the dog in question has prick ears, and prick-eared dogs have *not* typically been put up at the big shows, and yet either Jan or Sandi did manage a conformation championship on her), you can probably still manage a CH on a working-bred dog that comes close to the look that judges typically put up at shows.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

I always try to support anyone who has a border collie and who wants to take the time and money to find about the dog's herding ability. That is the only way the people who have dogs in obedience or other AKC stuff learn what herding ability is and why its so important to this breed.

 

I tell interested people to find a stock dog clinic near them and then go as a spectator - doesn't cost much. And they can see the dogs work and see how they are trained. And they can talk to people who can help them.

 

Lots of people who are out there trialling now started out knowing nothing. They get out there and start finding out stuff and pretty soon they get the bug. Buy a farm and get sheep and off they go.

 

And we have one more person who has learned to love these dogs as working dogs.

[Mark Billadeau]

versatility = jack of all trades master of none

[Debbie Meier]

It seems so simple to be able to breed for both top notch working ability and conformation until you really look deep into the selection process and what it take to truely prove that working ability. The amount of training and understanding is way deeper then it appears when looking in from the outside. As Wayne and I are deciding our next pairing we hardly consider conformation, atleast when you compare it to what is selected for when breeding strictly conformation. We can't, too many more important factors to weight that could effect working ability and the ability to train it.

 

When it comes to structure, I'm happy if all my dogs have a structure that can support the work, who cares about conf ring titles or ribbons, they do me no good if the dog is not an improvement from a working standard. There are some things I personally watch for, too long of back, overly cow hocked, too big and bulky, but those issues don't exclude that dog from the program if they have talent and ability, we just look toward mating in an effort to not overly promote or enhance those issues.

 

I kinda wonder if one of the reasons you don't see the ring dogs do so hot out on the field has to do with whether or not the standard that is being rewarded can support the work. If the angulations, lengths, heights, etc. conflict with natural talent and ability you could end up breeding a working limitation in, not do to lack of drive but rather lack of physical ability to follow that drive. If your body can't do it eventually you give up. Many would love to dance and would be quite talented if, their bodies could support the strong desire to dance.

 

I don't think many realize just how physically demanding stock work is on a dog, on a regular bases I see my dogs make moves that would give me whiplash or send me to the chiropractor, going one way and then all of a sudden instict sends them the next, the body has no time to prepare, it has to be ready and able to follow, it's so impulsive. I don't think you can breed/select for that able body based on a written or set standard, it has to be proven through use over time. Dogs that upon sight you would bet couldn't do it can, dogs that look like they could can't.

 

Just some thoughts..

 

Deb

[timberviewfarm]

I am one of those owners of a barbie collie that willow's rest (Julie) refers to. He is a very nicely bred Peachy Keen, AKC dog who I got as a rescue and decided to try him on sheep. He has just enough instinct to get him in trouble and be frustrating. He could be trained into a very mechanical dog on a small field, but what is the point in that when he doesn't have any real instinct?

[sea4th]

Giving this fool as little bandwidth as possible --- a couple of years ago there was a troll who came on here by the name of "Destructo". He is the author of that article and has a blog. He was even quoted as some sort of border collie expert in a Dog World Magazine (?) article last year, where some members of this board were given a lot of space (and then you see this windbag's name).

 

To prove us all wrong he bred a litter of pups (one that I know of) --- one parent was from conformation lines, one from working lines. This he did to prove us all wrong. I'm sure he took great care in placing those pups in good homes, but I have yet to see that he accomplished his goal --- of proving the argument that conformation dogs can work as well as working-bred dogs, wrong.

 

So, the stir he created on these boards, launched him into some sort of cyber border collie expert career, and, because he's educated, he sounds convincing to the novice when he writes. To anyone who knows anything, it doesn't take long to realize, this guy's a windbag.

[sea4th]

WHAT? SILENCE? WAS IT SOMETHING I SAID??? I'll say it again if you want me to! WINDBAG! BLOWHARD! HOT AIR! There's more where that came from too! ;0))) (just found it funny that dialogue came to an end after my post, that's all.)

 

ETA: make that 3 litters to date. His business must be slow. A budding BYB?

[jdarling]

WHAT? SILENCE? WAS IT SOMETHING I SAID??? I'll say it again if you want me to! WINDBAG! BLOWHARD! HOT AIR!

 

Hahahahaha! Sorry ... I was too busy laughing to respond! That's the best description I've seen of him ever! But you know ... the fact that his dogs work is a given, right? What's really very difficult to produce are "cryptic merle lilac tricolor" Barbie Collies. But ... he's amazing. He's done it.

 

SEE????

 

Must be that Stanford edumacation.

[BenjaminButton]

What state do you live in, Ben?

 

I live in BC Canada.

[BenjaminButton]

FWIW, and this has all been discussed before, when the AKC recognized the border collie, at least some old-time working dog breeders tried to cross over, but the big fallacy in thinking that you're making is this:

Because it implies that you're accepting that the AKC conformation standard (as judged by the AKC judges) is the de facto standard for a structurally correct working dog, and that simply may not be the case. The fact that any number of dogs bred to that standard in order to win conformation championships have lost some crucial parts of the whole working package would suggest that the conformation standard show people breed to does not, in fact, confer any sort of

 

J.

 

this is an excellent point. I do not agree with the akc standard either. The dogs are too heavy and thick boned. Most are too large for my personal taste as well.

 

However, by completely not caring about aesthetics I fear that bcs will no longer be a breed and be more like a type like Alaskan Huskies. Alaskan huskies are bred only and solely for working ability and conformation wise, there is a huuuge variation. More than what is acknowledged in a breed of dog so to me A. huskies is just a type. I've seen some working farms with BCs that don't look much like a BC anymore, not sure I'd they've crossed their dogs with aussies and other shepherds/herders or not. I'm not talking about the people that compete in herding, just some small time working farms I've seen while driving around.

[geonni banner]

Ok,

I’m pretty green when it comes to working Border Collies, and I’m pretty green when it comes to internet bulletin boards. This is the only one I’ve found useful (and civilized) enough to come back to on a regular basis. I had to go to Wikipedia to find out what a “troll” is.

 

I went to the links and read what the OP had to say, and my impression is that he is someone who likes to hear himself talk. So am I, come to that. But a quick perusal of the pedigrees of the dog in question does not suggest what I would think of as a Barbie collie. Too many repetitions of ISDS following the ancestral names.

 

I read that we here at the Boards are catty anachronisms. OK. I’m a luddite, if you don’t count Photoshop and the internet. I’ve even been known to be catty on occasion. (Was that just one?) But one thing jumped out at me. (Well, two things, but later for that…)

 

Name dropping is common, and sometimes fun. But isn’t it usually to create a positive association between you and the named one in the mind of the reader? I’m a little bemused by the approach of, “Hi, I’m a big fan, and oh, by the way, you and your harpy friends are full of sh*t.”

 

Oh yes. The other thing. We here at the Boards aren’t putting our money where our mouths are in terms of rescue. We all go out and buy high-priced pups from International Champion trial dogs. Tell that to my rescue bitch. And the one or two other rescue dogs owned by those here on the Boards. (Boy, those International Champions must be awfully busy cranking out high-priced pups for all of us anachronisms here on the Boards. Uh-oh, catty again!)

 

The dog referred to in the OP may be AKC registered. May even be able to work stock, but it doesn’t appear to be Barbie-bred to this newbie.

 

And, uh, why is a Canadian so enamored of the AKC?

 

 

By-the-by, Journey. I always thought knickers were underwear... Is this some sort of regional taste treat I've missed out on?