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MaggieDog

I'm curious

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Ok, I don't know then, I based it on reading the following:

 

Eligibility for Open Registration

 

* In order to be registered under Open Registration, a dog must be born in the United States, or one of it’s possessions or territories. Otherwise, it will have to be submitted with a Foreign Dog Registration Application.

* The owner must be a resident of the United States, or one of it’s possessions or territories.

* The dog must be of a breed eligible for registration in the AKC Stud Book.

* The dog must first be registered with a domestic registry acceptable to the AKC (see below).

* The dog must be registered with the same name that appears on the certificate from the domestic registry.

* The dog must be registered in the same owner(s) name that appears on the certificate from the domestic registry. A co-owner can be added by a transfer after the dog is AKC registered by simply filling out the back of the certificate and sending to AKC with a transfer fee.

* The information on the application must agree with the information on the domestic registry certificate and/or pedigree.

 

Acceptable Domestic Registries

 

Individual dogs that are previously registered with one of the following registry organizations (see Special Registry Services for more info on these registries):

 

* American Border Collie Association

* American International Border Collie Association

 

Edit: The clever munchkins those folk in CKS, the issue does not appear until you look at the application.

Maja

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This is probably the section on the three generation pedigree. Someone who registers with the AKC could explain this more accurately.

 

"III. DOGS WHELPED IN THE UNITED STATES WHEN NEITHER THE SIRE NOR THE DAM ARE AKC REGISTERED

A dog whelped in the United States that is individually registered with one of the Domestic Registry Organizations listed in Section V of this pamphlet may be eligible for registration. A three-generation certified Pedigree issued by the domestic registry organization must accompany the application for AKC registration."

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**DISCLAIMER** I do not register with ACK...

 

All the above means is that the owner has to submit the ABCA papers when applying for ACK papers to register their dog. Which means if ABCA didn't give out 3 gen papers they (ACK) wouldn't accept them....

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I called the AKC and asked based on Emily's registration with ABCA which has one name on it: Emily.

 

The person I talked to said that an actual three generations were required, not just empty spaces for same; however, believing that I was crushed, she kindly told me to go ahead and try.

 

Emily is rolling over in her grave.

 

Penny

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I called the AKC and asked based on Emily's registration with ABCA which has one name on it: Emily.

 

The person I talked to said that an actual three generations were required, not just empty spaces for same; however, believing that I was crushed, she kindly told me to go ahead and try.

 

Emily is rolling over in her grave.

 

Penny

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... she kindly told me to go ahead and try.

 

Yes, because you send in your registration application ... along with the $$ ... and if they deny her registration, they do not refund the money.

 

Imagine that.

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If you haven't read it already, get The Dog Wars by Donald McCaig

Ok, Julie, now you did it! Both you and Amazon dot com :rolleyes: . I bought the book along with two other by the same author :D . My hubby being in the US was not here to stop me. I will read the Dog Wars and probably commit kennelocide by quitting the Polish KC :D .

Maja

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Ok, Julie, now you did it! Both you and Amazon dot com :rolleyes: . I bought the book along with two other by the same author :D . My hubby being in the US was not here to stop me. I will read the Dog Wars and probably commit kennelocide by quitting the Polish KC :D .

Maja

LOL! What other of his books did you get? He's got some non-border collie related books that are also excellent.

 

J.

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LOL! What other of his books did you get? He's got some non-border collie related books that are also excellent.

J.

I saw some non doggie books but I wasn't sure it was the same person. I got Nop's Trials and A Useful Dog.

 

Maja

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"Jacob Ladder" is set before the Civil War, during, and after; "Canaan" is a sequel. Both wonderful with the former getting more serious critical acclaim. "Rhett Butler's People" is also a hell of a read.

 

Penny

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I'm with Julie - I loved An American Homeplace. I love all his dog books. I just wish the one waiting on publishing would come out sometime soon.

 

Mr McCaig has a gift and, fortunately, he shares it with us in his writing. Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men has got to be one of my all-time favorites.

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I am still curious though: How does ABCA and the like prevent bad breeding practices? I was wondering about a sort of average profile of a working dog person and conformation dog person, and how it might affect the overall operation of these institutions. It seems to me that there are sufficient regulations in place for the AKC to operate like a good Better Business Bureau, but in most cases it does not. There is also no reason whatsoever for herding not to flourish there either, since you told me the AKC allows breeding pedigree to pedigree, that means you could, with no problem, breed for working ability within the Kennel Club. Having a Bernese, I can see that different types dogs create a different type average owner/breeder, so I am wondering how it affects the aforementioned breding practices.

 

Sue,

And you too.... :rolleyes:

 

Maja

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You *could* prioritize working ability within a kennel club *if* that was what the membership and leadership wanted. But the very essence of a kennel club, with emphasis on appearance (and also on performance sport) rather than working/useful ability, really precludes that.

 

I think that, for anyone truly serious about working ability (and all those traits that that requires, which includes temperment, soundness, health, and so forth), a registry and testing organization other than a kennel club is the only feasible option.

 

Saying you promote working ability while judging appearance (and/or performance sports) as important criteria, reminds me of the old biblical injunction that a man cannot serve two masters, or he will end up loving the one and hating the other. Plus, judging for attributes that do not truly contribute to working ability is simply counterproductive, and will result in a dilution and diminuation of working ability. You have to select for what is truly most important, or you will settle for mediocrity at best.

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I agree with you, and I was just pointing out that the conditions are in place (after all the KC says they are for pedigree dogs not for show dos) for preserving working abilities, and obviously there is no willingness among the members. (As e.g. is the case in Poland for hunting dogs, the real hunting dogs that participate in hunting trials are from KC).

Maja

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I am still curious though: How does ABCA and the like prevent bad breeding practices?

Maja

 

Go to the ABCA web site, and scroll down to "Disciplinary Actions", for a partial answer to your question.

 

Sadly, it doesn't "prevent" bad breeding practices - as is evident from the current thread describing Swafford's puppies having been seized. It merely prevents such dogs from being registered with ABCA.

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I was just pointing out that the conditions are in place (after all the KC says they are for pedigree dogs not for show dos) for preserving working abilities

 

Not really. The AKC has an appearance standard for each breed, and advocates breeding to that standard -- IOW, breeding for looks. It does not have a working standard. Breeding in accordance with what the AKC advocates is detrimental to the development of good working dogs. The AKC offers titles in herding events, but just as a way to offer more activities, which are income-producing in terms of entry fees and which make people who enjoy dog events and accumulating titles want to register with them. The AKC does not advocate their use as criteria for breeding. I don't believe that working ability of any type can really be fostered within an all-breed kennel club, because the goals of the organization are too diffuse.

 

How does ABCA and the like prevent bad breeding practices?

 

Neither the ABCA nor any other dog registry in the US can prevent bad breeding practices. That could be done only by very strict government regulation. We don't have that in the US, and the overwhelming majority of our citizens do not want it. The ABCA can encourage and educate its members to use good breeding practices, can try to educate the public to recognize and seek breeders whose practices are good, can support testing for working ability and genetic health, all of which it does. It also can expel from membership and refuse to register the dogs of egregious breeders who are in violation of its rules, but such breeders can go on breeding and selling dogs by simply registering them with a different registry, or not registering them at all.

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Eileen, from what I understand the AKC shows, herding trials, agility trials, etc lose money. It is the registration fees, which come primarily from puppy mills and BYBs, pay for the whole organization. That is why the AKC is so upset that registration numbers are down and are courting pet stores in order to make sure every pup sold is registered.

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Eileen, from what I understand the AKC shows, herding trials, agility trials, etc lose money. It is the registration fees, which come primarily from puppy mills and BYBs, pay for the whole organization. That is why the AKC is so upset that registration numbers are down and are courting pet stores in order to make sure every pup sold is registered.

 

The AKC does say that, definitely. When the delegates murmur against AKC accommodations of pet stores and puppy mills, they are asked, "Well, how would you like to find yourself paying $150 to enter your next dog show? That's what will happen if we can't build up our registration numbers, because these events don't pay for themselves, you know." Murmuring usually then ceases.

 

I have always considered this to be creative accounting on AKC's part. But the finances of the AKC are so bloated and complicated, and its relationship with its member clubs in the financing of dog events is so entangled, that I can't say for sure. Even if the events do lose money, though, that reflects a management decision on the part of AKC not to have them carry their own weight. (And a foolish one, IMO, because people who are entering AKC events are much more "hooked" than people deciding whether to register their pup with the AKC or not, and therefore their demand is much more inelastic, as the economists would say.)

 

Our registry, the ABCA, supports dog trials in two ways -- by a substantial grant of money to the USBCHA to help put on the national sheepdog and cattledog finals, and by individual grants to people and organizations who put on local trials and who apply for assistance. The amount of money expended in these ways is well within what our registrations can support, and the rest of the cost of these events is fully defrayed by entry fees, USBCHA (or local club) membership fees, and (in the case of the larger events) sponsorships. I realize our events lack many of the frills associated with AKC events and as a result are no doubt less costly to maintain, but that reflects our priorities. I can't imagine us ever being in a position where we would have to cultivate puppy mills to maintain our events. We just wouldn't, because our values are different.

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It is simply my opinion (based on what I heard as a member of an affiliate club) that AKC primarily makes its money from paperwork - with registration fees being a huge part of that. I would hazard a guess that the majority of registered pups are never a source of income for AKC again, because many become pets and companions and their owners don't participate in shows or other events. Paperwork associated with shows (which are hosted by, put on by, and supported by) affiliate clubs and/or parent clubs, is another source of income for AKC but I wouldn't know if it's significant.

 

From what I understand, a well-organized club putting on a well-run show (conformation and/or performance) can make some pretty nice money doing so, relying largely on volunteer help (except for the judges, of course) and a large pool of entrants willing to pay the fees.

 

There certainly has been a bucketload of money being made somewhere and somehow, to support those top-level administrators and that posh headquarters in NYC. And, if registration numbers declining is putting a sizeable leak in that bucket, I can understand their concern, although I certainly don't sympathize.

 

Adding activities (CGC, performance sports, ILP/PAL "registrations", mixed-breed entrants in performance sports, and multitudes of titles including those relating to "herding" activities) will increase paperwork and revenues, for sure. But will they make it any better for the dogs, really? As pets, I might say yes. As real working dogs with real world, useful abilities, I doubt it.

 

And, as a PS, I know some AKC folks, on the local level. Most are wonderful, dog-loving people who are doing the best they can for the dogs - the best they can with the level of understanding they have with regards to whatever is their chosen breed or venue or activity. I respect and admire most of them as people and dog-owners, even though I don't agree with their affiliation with AKC. Of course, I can say the same about most sheepdog people that I know, too, in terms of them being well-meaning and quality dog owners and handlers.

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You *could* prioritize working ability within a kennel club *if* that was what the membership and leadership wanted.

That's what I said. with the way the rules are set up for breeding an individual member can do it if they want to.

 

Saying you promote working ability while judging appearance (and/or performance sports) as important criteria, reminds me of the old biblical injunction that a man cannot serve two masters, or he will end up loving the one and hating the other. Plus, judging for attributes that do not truly contribute to working ability is simply counterproductive, and will result in a dilution and diminuation of working ability. You have to select for what is truly most important, or you will settle for mediocrity at best.

Right, that's how priorities work. If you serve two masters, they are on an equal footing so to speak. But if you set priorities , it just does not work that way. I wrote that AKC allows to breed without testing for conformation (regardless of their philosophy) and without testing for working ability. Thus a member is in fact free to choose. I pointed it out to say that there seems to be an easy possibility without much desire to do so from the start when border collies first were recognized by AKC.

 

Plus, judging for attributes that do not truly contribute to working ability is simply counterproductive, and will result in a dilution and diminuation of working ability. You have to select for what is truly most important, or you will settle for mediocrity at best.

That's simply not true. Let's take a hypothetical situation: national finalists, they run, some win, some don't. Then you take some people and they choose the most beautiful dogs. Will it diminish their working ability? Of course not. Only if appearance precedes in priority the working ability does it impact the breeding negatively. If you have two equalstuds, if you choose the one you like the look of better, is he going to to produce worse puppies, because he's beautiful in your opinion? If you have a littler of puppies (so you made already all the right decisions of breeding stellar to stellar) is the prettiest puppy going to be a worse herding dog, thus you will choose the least appealing to be on the safe side? I'm sure not.

 

Of course if one of aforementioned studs is actually a worse sheepdog and you choose him because you like tricolored, then of course it has a negative effect on the working ability, except that you have just reversed the priorities.

 

For me personally, talking about working dogs and their appearance is actually difficult to separate because I always see a working dog as a picture of beauty.

 

Maja

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You *could* prioritize working ability within a kennel club *if* that was what the membership and leadership wanted.

That's what I said. with the way the rules are set up for breeding an individual member can do it if they want to.

 

Yes, but an individual breeder does not make a breed. You need many people breeding for the same priorities to make a viable breed. In AKC, a different priority is set for breeding, and predictably the people who are comfortable with that priority are the ones who wish to register there. Even if you go into the AKC thinking you will have a working priority, it's very hard not to be influenced by the priorities of all those around you -- all those who compliment and reward, or disparage and discourage.

 

That's simply not true. Let's take a hypothetical situation: national finalists, they run, some win, some don't. Then you take some people and they choose the most beautiful dogs. Will it diminish their working ability? Of course not. Only if appearance precedes in priority the working ability does it impact the breeding negatively. If you have two equalstuds, if you choose the one you like the look of better, is he going to to produce worse puppies, because he's beautiful in your opinion? If you have a littler of puppies (so you made already all the right decisions of breeding stellar to stellar) is the prettiest puppy going to be a worse herding dog, thus you will choose the least appealing to be on the safe side? I'm sure not.

 

Individual choice using individual standards of beauty among dogs bred solely for working ability does not affect working ability. That's the system most of us working dog people operate under. But collective choice according to an arbitrary written standard of what is beautiful WOULD be detrimental to working ability, even if the choice were originally made from good working dogs. That's the system the AKC is based on. Even if you say you are breeding for both working ability and beauty, you will naturally gravitate toward the one that is easiest to see and produce -- and that's appearance, not working ability. That's why working ability has been diminished or lost in breed after breed that has been taken into the AKC.

 

It's very hard to talk across cultures like this, when neither of us has experience with the situation in the other's country. I don't know if you're talking about a theoretical possibility, or a real one. I don't feel nearly as strongly about the first as I do about the second. :rolleyes:

 

For me personally, talking about working dogs and their appearance is actually difficult to separate because I always see a working dog as a picture of beauty.

 

I do too. But that's not to say that all of them meet the standard of beauty set by the AKC, used to define its breeds, and rewarded by its conformation judges.

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