New! And questions about other people disciplining dogs

[arf2184]

I prefer to let people discipline their own dogs, but if they don't I'm not going to just stand there and let their dog nip at or jump on me. A step towards the dog with a growly no is usually all it takes. As far as my dogs, if they need disciplined I handle it and don't put people in a situation where they feel the need to discipline my dogs. Pet sitters and regular guests are taught what to do...if they aren't comfortable or don't want to do things my way, they aren't around the dogs, simple.

 

As far as more aggressive/dangerous situations, my dogs have been attacked by other dogs while we were out walking. I do not hesitate to kick the dog if thats what it takes (even if the owner is right there). My view on it is that my kick does less harm than letting the dogs rip into each other (or me!).

[Eileen Stein]

I thought about this recently when reading "let's Take the long way Home". The author's dog, a samoyed, was attacked (as was the author) by two pit bulls. Useless owner. No nearby help - far from the car.

 

I wondered what I would do? A perfectly timed through the goalposts kick might stop one dog - and perhaps deter the other. Marines were trained how to disable/kill an attacking guard dog but the defense required strength and agility I no longer possess. Charging the dog with a great bellow might work but might encourage my dogs to mix it up. I don't carry a gun. If I had a cane or crook, I could stop one of them . . .but . . .

 

Dunno. What would you do?

 

This is a tough question. It's a totally different situation from a dog nipping ankles or jumping up on someone, and a case where protecting yourself and your dog would be the first and only consideration. But how best to do that? I pretty much agree with your assessment of the possibilities. I was once able to fend off an attacking Doberman with a fallen branch that happened to be nearby, but it was a stroke of luck that the branch was there. I think I'd go with the kick, but you'd have to give it everything you've got, and even then it might not work out well.

[jingi]

does anyone here carry pepper spray specifically formulated for dogs?...the neighborhood where i walk my doxie has several shibas and a few nasty little lap dogs...i always carry a can of dog pepper spray that i picked up on my last trip to the U.S...fortunately i haven't had to use it yet...but i would...and then if that didn't work i would prolly opt for a kick...i wouldn't worry so much when i walk Cobb, my bc...but then he's bigger than most of the dogs...but i will still carry the spray...

[Heinz 57]

I know this has gone a little off the original topic, so I just want to clarify -

 

*My* pup doesn't nip, bite, chase, bark at, or otherwise antagonize me or anyone else he encounters (ok, he might lick you. we're working on that.). He may accidentally jump up on someone that comes up to him and is all 'ohhh! puppy puppy puppy baby boo boo!' excited and in his face, but he IS still learning and not everyone will correct him.

 

I should also add, landlord wanted to 'introduce' him to her puppy-agressive labrador (has caused damage requiring veterinary care previously) by forcing the pup onto his back and holding him down while she allowed the labrador to approach/smell him. I veto'd that idea. I have no desire to allow the pup to get bitten/attacked/scared to death by a known aggressive dog while being forced and held on his back. Talk about causing permanent mental damage! He's already very submissive when it comes to other animals, even the cats.

 

For the time being, I will just be keeping him on leash so I do not have to deal with other people's (or their dogs!) issues. I have another friend that can't seem to get the hang of discipline/correction without emotion.

 

He's a smart little bugger, and for being 12 weeks old is pretty well behaved (has a recall and sit that are about 75% reliable most days, and a down that is about 50%). I'd post a picture, but getting him to hold still long enough is difficult at this stage. He's a smooth coated tricolor.

[PSmitty]

He's a smooth coated tricolor.

 

Umm, you're not allowed to post that, but no pictures. We've got a few smooth coated tricolored fans here.

[rushdoggie]

does anyone here carry pepper spray specifically formulated for dogs?...the neighborhood where i walk my doxie has several shibas and a few nasty little lap dogs...i always carry a can of dog pepper spray that i picked up on my last trip to the U.S...fortunately i haven't had to use it yet...but i would...and then if that didn't work i would prolly opt for a kick...i wouldn't worry so much when i walk Cobb, my bc...but then he's bigger than most of the dogs...but i will still carry the spray...

 

I have considered buying this stun baton for when I walk my dogs, especially the smaller dogs, as I am often concerned about how I would fend off an attacking dog.

 

stun baton

[Heinz 57]

Umm, you're not allowed to post that, but no pictures. We've got a few smooth coated tricolored fans here.

 

 

My sincerest apologies.

 

Here is the little monster himself - just yesterday.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

EIleen wrote: I was once able to fend off an attacking Doberman with a fallen branch that happened to be nearby, but it was a stroke of luck that the branch was there.

 

If you can bellow/threaten/startle a potential attacker before he gets locked in, you can probably deter the attack. If he's already in red mode you no longer face a mental situation but a physical one. AND you've a dog or two. More than two and you've a dog pack and I can't predict what might happen.

 

If you've two dogs off leash, likely they'd either flee or pile in. Hard to predict what my dogs'd do if I was attacked. Border Collies wouldn't be effective against an attacking bully breed - but they might distract him enough to find that fallen branch and injure or kill him - because once you've got a three dog fight (one experienced, two not) I suspect that might be your only alternative.

 

If your dogs are on leash you're in desperate trouble.

 

Donald McCaig

[PSmitty]

My sincerest apologies.

 

Here is the little monster himself - just yesterday.

 

ADORABLE!!

[geonni banner]

Dear Doggers,

 

EIleen wrote: I was once able to fend off an attacking Doberman with a fallen branch that happened to be nearby, but it was a stroke of luck that the branch was there.

 

If you can bellow/threaten/startle a potential attacker before he gets locked in, you can probably deter the attack. If he's already in red mode you no longer face a mental situation but a physical one. AND you've a dog or two. More than two and you've a dog pack and I can't predict what might happen.

 

If you've two dogs off leash, likely they'd either flee or pile in. Hard to predict what my dogs'd do if I was attacked. Border Collies wouldn't be effective against an attacking bully breed - but they might distract him enough to find that fallen branch and injure or kill him - because once you've got a three dog fight (one experienced, two not) I suspect that might be your only alternative.

 

If your dogs are on leash you're in desperate trouble.

 

Donald McCaig

 

I have learned that with many dogs that come at my dog like gangbusters, that a deep, loud, "SIT!" will often cause them to break off the attack. Almost every dog knows "sit," and while they don't usually sit, it inserts a sliver of doubt into their minds, and they will at least hesitate. Sometimes they will just stop and go away - almost like they had a "reset" button pushed. This came in very handy for a gas company employee that I had chatted with on the subject. He was being charged by a Rottweiler on the dog's property, and the dog broke off long enough for him to get out of the yard and shut the gate.

 

Of course this will probably not affect a truly vicious dog, but it works in enough circumstances to be worth trying. It's worked for me a couple of times, and a solid kick to the ribs and/or the groin has settled a couple of others.

[Ooky]

I have learned that with many dogs that come at my dog like gangbusters, that a deep, loud, "SIT!" will often cause them to break off the attack. Almost every dog knows "sit," and while they don't usually sit, it inserts a sliver of doubt into their minds, and they will at least hesitate. Sometimes they will just stop and go away - almost like they had a "reset" button pushed. This came in very handy for a gas company employee that I had chatted with on the subject. He was being charged by a Rottweiler on the dog's property, and the dog broke off long enough for him to get out of the yard and shut the gate.

 

Of course this will probably not affect a truly vicious dog, but it works in enough circumstances to be worth trying. It's worked for me a couple of times, and a solid kick to the ribs and/or the groin has settled a couple of others.

 

The one time Odin was attacked, by a pit bull that escaped its collar and came running in full attack mode straight at us, this is what I tried. I'll admit while the dog was running for us I didn't have any idea what to do, but when he grabbed Odin and pulled him into the street I remembered someone giving this advice once and used it. I'm not sure if it helped the dog to let go, or if the owner running over and yelling was the only factor, but Odin was not hurt too bad - which if you saw the attack was pretty amazing.

 

The only thing was it was awfully hard to speak from a place of calm, total authority in this situation rather than panic, and I bet it would be even harder if said dog was attacking me or, for example, my daughter.

[Blackdawgs]

If your dogs are on leash you're in desperate trouble.

 

Recently, while walking my 2 leashed dogs on a public sidewalk, a Labradoodle ran thru an open gate like a bat out of hell and attacked one of my dogs. It happened so fast that I didn't see the LD coming, so I couldn't take evasive action. I found myself standing on the sidewalk in the middle of a three dog scuffle and there really wasn't a damn thing that I could do because my dogs weren't leaving and I was becoming tangled in the leashes. I knew that if I started kicking the LD, it would redirect onto my leg. The melee ended after the LD's owner reached into the middle of the fracus and retrieved her darling. Dog owner is very lucky that she wasn't bitten, that her baby wasn't torn to bits (my dogs showed amazing restraint), that I wasn't carrying my stick (LD's brains would have been splattered on the sidewalk), and that I chose not to escalate the matter into a dangerous dog proceeding. Since then, I just don't walk the two dogs together except at the one place where I can be almost certain that there won't be any off leash dogs.

 

After the incident, I spoke to the director of animal services at length and he sang the praises of pepper spray to the heavens, not that I could have used it in my situation without spraying my two dogs (and perhaps myself). After doing a lot of research and talking to people, I've concluded that the weapon of choice is a long, heavy stick, something to maintain distance, give the attacking dog something to chew on, and ofcourse use as a club.

 

One of my aquaintances carries a cattle prod.

 

Over the years, we've been approached by more off leash dogs with various intentions than I care to think about and I've used: rocks, branches from the ground, flying bags of dog shit, my foot, a dressage whip (in front of the dog's owner), scarey body language, my voice, and have done nothing. I've found that I make instinctive, snap decisions in a case by case manner. When we've been approached by PB's , my gut has always told me to do absolutely nothing and I just stand very quiety and talk to the dogs. Until a few weeks ago, my older dog has never been wounded or put her mouth on another dog--- I also attribute my good luck to her--she just isn't interested in fighting and diffuses these situations in her own way

 

My guess is that if an approaching dog is just hell bent of doing harm, there is little that anyone can do but pray (and shot it if you have a gun).

[mbc1963]

Oy! I'm getting anxious just reading that story, Blackdawgs!

 

A few years ago, I was walking Buddy up the street and the neighbor's little Basenji (whom Buddy actually loved, for a change, but who hated all dogs) escaped from his porch and charged at us in full attack mode. Poor Buddy ended up tangled and hog-tied in his leash, lying on the road, whimpering. Luckily the owner was able to get his dog before much damage had occurred, but my dog was so pitiful! I absolutely feel my adrenaline rise when another loose dog charges us when Buddy is on leash. Even if the dog is "friendly," Buddy interprets a direct charge as an attack, and I'm left in the middle of a dog fight.

 

A big stick sounds great - but I'm already carrying a leash, filled poop bag, and potentially a water bottle, too. There's only so much I can handle!

 

Mary

[Mariji]

I know I would be annoyed if somebody hit or even attempted to hit my dog regardless of what they were doing. So I don't ever let my dogs get in that situation. You have no need to ask my dogs to sit, back up or get out or even ask them to do any tricks. As far as I am concerned I am the only person that is allowed to ask them to do anything. I am proactive in making sure they don't annoy anyone and there would be no need for any of the above to happen. Saying that I would have quite happily smacked a few dogs across the head because of their obnoxious behaviour, but it isn't usually the dogs fault, simply the owners crappy job at training the dog or managing the dog.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Mariji wrote:

"I know I would be annoyed if somebody hit or even attempted to hit my dog regardless of what they were doing. So I don't ever let my dogs get in that situation. You have no need to ask my dogs to sit, back up or get out or even ask them to do any tricks. As far as I am concerned I am the only person that is allowed to ask them to do anything."

 

That's the rule in the sheepdog community with the caveat that if a dog does misbehave (pick a fight, jump up, nip etc) the nearest person or the person affected has the right to correct the dog. Dogs at sheepdog trials are better behaved than any dogs I've seen at any other venue, including pet dog trainers' conferences.

 

I am aware that the owner of an illmannered dog may not have caused the dog's poor behavior. It may be fresh from rescue, badly wired etc. But, in that case, it is the owner's responsibility to manage that dog so it doesn't offend.

 

I bought my ten year old Luke at two and he was space defensive. He'd growl (and mean it) when anyone approached his crate or the car he was chained under. His breeder had stories about why - drunk nurturer, etc - but the why doesn't matter. The habit was deeply ingrained but only triggered when he was crated or chained up and only when strangers approached - never with people he knew.

 

Luke had other baggage - he wouldn't run out for sheep he didn't see, wouldn't down or slow at the top and often gripped off at the shed. Finding the balance between effective pressure and overstress was difficult.

 

And while I might have retrained his growling from the crate, I elected to deal with more pressing issues. So, for 8 years I have managed Luke. At trials, I crate him behind a closed car door and never chain him under the car. If handler parking is minimal he might bark when someone parked close comes too near. I don't like it but no harm done.

 

While Luke is okay with other dogs and humans on or off leash, when strangers make over him he tolerates it unlike his wife, June who solicits such behavior. So I don't push Luke's limits and everybody, human and dog, get along fine.

 

If, for whatever reason, a dog is illmannered, it must be managed. The dog is its owner's responsibility and I have no urge to train it, pet it or interact with it in any way. The dog and I are strangers and most times we are equally content to maintain our nonrelationship. Dog goes for my ankles, dog gets corrected, promptly and with no consideration for the owner's wishes or training theories. That I must act is sufficient evidence the owner has failed to train or manage his dog.

Yes, it's the owner's fault. But it's the dog at my ankles.

 

.

 

Donald McCaig

[Jack & Co.]

Thank you for the excellent post, Mr. McCaig. Reminds me of my brother-in-law....he was the only one allowed to correct his obnoxious lab. I was the one corrected for telling his stupid, stinky dog to lie down when it was all over me and up in my face while I sat on their couch.

 

Same brother-in-law does not like anyone to correct his child either. Consequently---spoiled only child.

[geonni banner]

Dear Doggers,

If, for whatever reason, a dog is illmannered, it must be managed. The dog is its owner's responsibility and I have no urge to train it, pet it or interact with it in any way. The dog and I are strangers and most times we are equally content to maintain our nonrelationship. Dog goes for my ankles, dog gets corrected, promptly and with no consideration for the owner's wishes or training theories. That I must act is sufficient evidence the owner has failed to train or manage his dog.

Yes, it's the owner's fault. But it's the dog at my ankles.

Donald McCaig

Hear! Hear!

[Gloria Atwater]

Dear Doggers,

 

......

 

If, for whatever reason, a dog is illmannered, it must be managed. The dog is its owner's responsibility and I have no urge to train it, pet it or interact with it in any way. The dog and I are strangers and most times we are equally content to maintain our nonrelationship. Dog goes for my ankles, dog gets corrected, promptly and with no consideration for the owner's wishes or training theories. That I must act is sufficient evidence the owner has failed to train or manage his dog.

Yes, it's the owner's fault. But it's the dog at my ankles.

 

.

 

Donald McCaig

 

 

That. Right there.

 

I'm fortunate that I seldom go any place where I run the risk of meeting random vicious dog, as I live in the country and really only get my dogs out to see friends, sheepdog trials or Home Depot. The only times I feel wary of other dogs are when I'm traveling and must potty my dogs at rest stops. Then I just keep well away from other people and their dogs and avoid any contact. Let their bad dogs remain their problem.

 

However, if I am at an event and I see a dog truly out to do damage, I'll jump in with the biggest bellow I can produce. At a clinic once, I was sitting among those watching when a young dog split off a sheep, chased until it grabbed a mouthful of wool, and hung on for a good fifty yards. The wreck was heading right towards us, so I bailed out of my chair at the same moment as the event host, and both of us dove in roaring, "NO!" The dog broke off and that ended that, fortunately with no blood drawn.

 

So, I imagine my reaction would be the same towards dog-on-dog violence. I'd pretty nearly throw myself on a grenade to save my own dogs. But thankfully I've never been put to the test. However, I find awareness and avoidance have been the most useful course to take. Bad dogs aren't my problem, they're the owners' problems. Until and unless they become my problem.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[havenjm]

If, for whatever reason, a dog is illmannered, it must be managed. The dog is its owner's responsibility and I have no urge to train it, pet it or interact with it in any way. The dog and I are strangers and most times we are equally content to maintain our nonrelationship. Dog goes for my ankles, dog gets corrected, promptly and with no consideration for the owner's wishes or training theories. That I must act is sufficient evidence the owner has failed to train or manage his dog.

Yes, it's the owner's fault. But it's the dog at my ankles.

 

Donald McCaig

These are my thoughts exactly. It is not my job to tolerate your dog's, or your child's, inappropriate behavior when it directly affects me. Further, I think it is far more inappropriate to expect others to tolerate ill manners than it is for others to correct your dog.

 

I'm not much concerned with your rationale for why nipper is nipping, nor for how you feel about how I handled the situation. If you're aware of the inappropriate behavior, and it occurs anyway, you have, in my opinion, failed to take control of the situation and therefore have no right to complain when someone else does.

 

I would take more issue with others not correcting my dog for inappropriate behavior than I would with the opposite.

[Eileen Stein]

Okay, y'all have convinced me. If someone else's dog behaves in a way I consider unmannerly, it is my absolute right to correct that dog in any way I see fit. The owner is entitled to no say in the matter -- s/he has forfeited any claim to a say in how his/her dog is corrected by permitting the dog to do something I find objectionable.

[havenjm]

Okay, y'all have convinced me. If someone else's dog behaves in a way I consider unmannerly, it is my absolute right to correct that dog in any way I see fit. The owner is entitled to no say in the matter -- s/he has forfeited any claim to a say in how his/her dog is corrected by permitting the dog to do something I find objectionable.

I sense a note of sarcasm here.

 

I cannot help but notice that you have omitted all mention of the crux of the issue.

[Eileen Stein]

Yes, I suppose there is a note of sarcasm in my last post, but I think it's an accurate summary of the POV expressed in your post that immediately precedes it, and in the posts of several others.

 

The crux of the issue?

 

The OP posted about a friend who disciplined the OP's 11-week-old pup for play-biting at the friend's dog's tail by pushing him over onto his back and yelling at him. She went on to say:

 

This is not how I teach, and I tried to make that clear to her. Most of my family is willing to follow the methods I use and has made an effort to remember the words he knows and use them appropriately. He's a little bit of an introvert, so I've been trying to work on his confidence and trying to 'roll' him and yell is most definitely NOT going to help that.

 

How do y'all deal with people that try to discipline your animals inappropriately?

 

Subsequent posters who shared the same concern posted as follows:

 

I have the same problem with my BC pup that is about 6 months old. In my situation though, it is not a friend, but the in- laws... My mother in law in particular. She is all into The Dog Whisperer way of teaching a dog, ie submission submission submission... I do not agree with the way he teaches dogs and I don't want to teach my dog that way. I do more the Victoria Stillwell, positive training ways... I have tried to explain to her how I train my dogs, I have showed how I train my dogs, yet it seems to go in one ear and out the other...

 

Oh. man can I empathize with this thread! I have a fear reactive 1 yr old. I also have and extremely strained relationship with my sister-in-law and try very hard to keep things pleasant with her. We had her and her new husband over for dinner one night, and he KICKED my baby girl when she gave a classic BC nip at his ankles when he ran past her.

 

I have an ankle nipper too. I've learned to let people know ahead of time that she nips and to expect it. "this is how you handle it...." follows so she doesn't also get kicked. I worry about that. Some people just don't understand appropraite correction with dogs. Kicking is not one of them. Unless, of course, it's a full on attack with intent to harm kinda thing, but that's another topic.

 

I had a friend over recently because he wanted to see the pups. He was only here for a few minutes to say hi. Grady is a little wild child and to the untrained person looks like he has no clue what's going on. He is extremely responsive to commands and listens 100% of the time. He's just a ball of perpetual motion. As the guy was leaving, I said "Grady Come". He came tearing back towards the door to come inside but the guy was standing there holding it open for him. He was unsure about this and came to a sliding stop just shy of coming in because he didn't want to run past him. The guy yells "HERE!" and grabs poor Grady by the collar and scruff and the same time and pulls him into the house. He was so quick about it, it startled both Grady and me. I was polite about telling him that grabbing a strange dog's collar was not a good idea and that if he had just left him alone he would have come in on his own. Not a guy I want handling my dogs, that's for sure

 

Then the thread took an odd turn. People began to write from the assumption that the dog's owner was a clueless, inconsiderate idiot whose wishes not only could be totally ignored, but SHOULD be totally ignored, because the dog had violated THEIR ankle, pantleg, space. Kicking might not be a good choice because the dog might be able to dodge a kick, but otherwise it was up to them to decide how to discipline this person's dog, and if the owner expressed any concerns, the appropriate response was to ignore him/her.

 

To me, the crux of the matter is this. There is no danger involved -- it's a question of manners, not an emergency like an attack or dogfight, where training preferences do not enter in. In the situations described, the dog's owner is present. It is not a case, for example, where the owner has absentmindedly gone off and left the dog at a trial, and others must deal with the dog's lack of mannerliness as best they can. The owner is present and has made it known to you that s/he does not want the dog to be disciplined in the way you want to discipline it. It seems to me there are several good ways to deal with this. You can handle it as the owner requests. You can avoid the dog. You can reply that you're sorry, but the way you train involves instant corrections, and since this has become so instinctive with you that you probably cannot avoid giving them, it would be better if the owner kept the dog away from you. Any of these approaches, or any variations thereof, seem far better to me than assuming the owner deserves your contempt and displaying that contempt by ignoring the owner's wishes. I would rather try to show respect for the owner, and recognize that even though I may favor different methods, consistency in training is generally a good thing for the dog. And I can't help thinking that unless you are the perfect owner, whose dog or pup could never, ever do something someone else would find objectionable, you would prefer that kind of respect and consideration were shown to you. Especially by someone who might happen to be very agile and powerful, whose kicks a dog could not so easily avoid, and whose ideas of appropriate corrections might be very different from yours.

[geonni banner]

Hmmm. Perhaps clarification is needed. For me personally, at least, if a dog is "invading my personal space" in a way that I find annoying, I first give the owner fair warning that I am not happy. If they ignore me I tell them that I take it they have given me their tacit approval to deal with it in any way I see fit. This usually is enough - they either tell me how they want the dog corrected, or get control of it and remove it from my immediate vicinity. I don't think it's appropriate to drop-kick a puppy to Jesus for dashing at my shins. (Not so an adult, say, Jack Russell) I'm willing to help out if they can give me an avenue that solves my problem and facilitates their training philosophy/ methods. But I'm not going to put up with a lot of aggravation from someone else's dog while they go through a 22-step process involving liver treats and a clicker that may or may not discourage it from shredding my pant-leg sometime in the next three days.

 

My turn to be sarcastic.

 

But if they are content to stand by with their head tipped adoringly to one side while their "precious pearl" re-arranges my shoelaces or shreds my eardrums, I am apt to react in a way that solves my problem in the quickest way. I make no assumptions about the owner's abilities or lack thereof. For all I know, they may be a world-class trainer whose mother was just taken by a fast-moving cancer - hence the double "heads up."

 

One exception: If I'm in their car, yard, house, etc. I must abide by their rules or remove myself from the situation. I would never presume to manage someone else's dog in their space - and I won't tolerate such behavior in mine. I think where this thread got off in the direction of condoning missle-strikes on errant pooches, is when some of us generalized to "the dog on the street" or situations of that ilk. As far as the OP is concerned he is (IMO) entitled to do whatever is necessary in his space to see that his dog is handled in the way he (she?) sees fit when on "home turf.".

[PSmitty]

Hear, hear, Eileen.

[rushdoggie]

To me, the crux of the matter is this. There is no danger involved -- it's a question of manners, not an emergency like an attack or dogfight, where training preferences do not enter in. In the situations described, the dog's owner is present. It is not a case, for example, where the owner has absentmindedly gone off and left the dog at a trial, and others must deal with the dog's lack of mannerliness as best they can. The owner is present and has made it known to you that s/he does not want the dog to be disciplined in the way you want to discipline it. It seems to me there are several good ways to deal with this. You can handle it as the owner requests. You can avoid the dog. You can reply that you're sorry, but the way you train involves instant corrections, and since this has become so instinctive with you that you probably cannot avoid giving them, it would be better if the owner kept the dog away from you. Any of these approaches, or any variations thereof, seem far better to me than assuming the owner deserves your contempt and displaying that contempt by ignoring the owner's wishes. I would rather try to show respect for the owner, and recognize that even though I may favor different methods, consistency in training is generally a good thing for the dog. And I can't help thinking that unless you are the perfect owner, whose dog or pup could never, ever do something someone else would find objectionable, you would prefer that kind of respect and consideration were shown to you. Especially by someone who might happen to be very agile and powerful, whose kicks a dog could not so easily avoid, and whose ideas of appropriate corrections might be very different from yours.

 

+1