flyer Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Hurray. I actually got things done today. One of my trainer's older dogs (11) who no longer competes worked really well for me. Very responsive to all my commands. I now have a canine teacher. My trainer worked Bea, working on balance and steadying and changing direction and then had me go out with her older fellow. I was feeling out balance and steadying. This is how we will work once a week throughout the summer. Bea is nine mos. now and in the fall we will up the lessons to two times a week and progress accordingly. I feel so fortunate. Oh, and I was able to call Bea off the sheep today using a wait which I have been installing under exciting circumstances elsewhere. She stood still and waited while I clipped on the leash. A that'll do and out of the field we went. I was very proud of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Sounds like you are doing it the right way, much better than the choices I have made! You might want to teach Bea either "stop" or "stay" rather than "wait", which sounds an awful lot like "way" (as in "way to me"). Like you, I have used wait and have to be careful to not use it on stock where it may easily be confused. Maybe other people have not experienced that problem, though, as these dogs can really differentiate, but I wish I'd done it differently and used a different word. That might make it easier for me, at least! Best wishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Sounds like you are doing it the right way, much better than the choices I have made! You might want to teach Bea either "stop" or "stay" rather than "wait", which sounds an awful lot like "way" (as in "way to me"). Like you, I have used wait and have to be careful to not use it on stock where it may easily be confused. Maybe other people have not experienced that problem, though, as these dogs can really differentiate, but I wish I'd done it differently and used a different word. That might make it easier for me, at least! Best wishes! Sue, that makes so much sense. Thank you for pointing that out. I will start using stop, as stay can also sound like way. Never occurred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Remember, it's the first part of the sound that the dog will react to - so "stop" and "stay" (or "stand", which should mean stand) will be okay as they both start with "st". "Stay" won't be confused with "way" the same way that "wait" would be because of the initial sound, which is the most important part of the sound (along with tone). Good luck - I'm still trying to sort things out but I am a slow learner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Remember, it's the first part of the sound that the dog will react to - so "stop" and "stay" (or "stand", which should mean stand) will be okay as they both start with "st". "Stay" won't be confused with "way" the same way that "wait" would be because of the initial sound, which is the most important part of the sound (along with tone). Good luck - I'm still trying to sort things out but I am a slow learner... Ah. yes, the beginning, of course. So true. Thx Sue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DebnKirk Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I wouldn't use "Stop" as I watched a person at a trial recently who used it and bystanders and later the judge remarked to her that it sounded like she was losing control of her dog. Of course she was, and she was using a panicked tone of voice, something we all have done at one time or another. Not a good impression. I wondered at the time about her using the bird-dog "Whoa" in that circumstance, or "Stand". Sue, that makes so much sense. Thank you for pointing that out. I will start using stop, as stay can also sound like way. Never occurred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I wouldn't use "Stop" as I watched a person at a trial recently who used it and bystanders and later the judge remarked to her that it sounded like she was losing control of her dog. I don't think it matters what word you use. I've heard "lie down" and "stand" both used (and yelled) ineffectively. For a dog who has been poorly trained with a lie down, using a different command like "stop"makes perfect sense to me. I'd be curious to know what her response was to the judge's and spectators' comments. I know one successful open handler who uses stop and I don't think anyone has ever thought she was losing control. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I don't think it matters what word you use. I've heard "lie down" and "stand" both used (and yelled) ineffectively. For a dog who has been poorly trained with a lie down, using a different command like "stop"makes perfect sense to me. I'd be curious to know what her response was to the judge's and spectators' comments. I know one successful open handler who uses stop and I don't think anyone has ever thought she was losing control. J. Bea hasn't got a lie down yet with sheep, 9 mos and about 8 lessons, so I improvised with something I use out on our hikes. Reading your post makes me think that I should incorporate a lie down command on the trail where I usually use wait, as I have only been looking for her to stop. Then perhaps it will more easily transfer over to when she's working sheep. She has an excellent lie down on hikes, in the fields, etc. under distraction, but not with sheep. I was very happy to get the wait. Am I making any sense or do I want both a stop and a lie down for different things while working sheep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 It sounds like you're using wait where I would use a stand? I generally use lie down to mean lie down, though with a youngster I'll accept anything that is a stop (i.e., standing stop) when I say lie down. A couple of my dogs have a stand and a lie down: one is clappy and doesn't need to be told to lie down, and the other resists a lie down but will stand. Since what I really want most is a stop, I'm happy if they will take a stand command. For the rest I also will take a stop if I say lie down, but expect an actual lie down if I blow their lie down whistle. Do what works best and makes the most sense to you. Most of the time, if the dog will stop that is sufficient. There are times when you'll want a belly-to-the-ground lie down (it really depends on the dog--some dogs absolutely aren't comfortable with it, for any number of reasons, and other dogs have so much presence--they disturb the stock--that a complete lie down might be essential), so it is good to differentiate between that and a standing stop, but for a youngster (and even some of my oldsters) I wouldn't be losing a lot of sleep over it. (Then again, I am pretty laissez faire about that stuff.) At 9 months I don't think I'd be cranking on her for a "real" lie down anyway. I wouldn't want to take her enthusiasm away by being super demanding about it. Ranger (11 months) rarely actually lies down when I say lie down, but he does generally stop, and I'm happy with that. (He does know what lie down means off sheep, and usually at the top of an outrun he'll lie down on command, but for most other things he stops and I accept that. I haven't bothered to put a different command on the stand at this point and don't know if I will). I've probably confused things even worse for you now. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I know of another open handler that uses "stop" and he means it. It's almost strange for me to watch cause the minute the guy says stop they are dead in their tracks no matter what they are doing. Works perfectly for them and it's different than lie down or stand. I think it's consistency that's more important, unless it's a young dog then imo if you are to over bearing on your lie down you can help a dog be clappy. Mick didn't start out clappy at all but during training I wasn't understanding certain things and insisted it was his lie down that was so important. Now he's a bit clappy cause I made such a bit deal about it. He does have quite a bit of eye so I'm sure that didn't help. I've seen my dogs second guess a command out of me. They thought I was going to say something else and it might have sounded like something else but I watch them catch themselves and correct before I could ever say something more. When I named Ray people told me what a bad idea it was cause it was so much like (a)way. I'm here to say she might get confused but never has she confused her name with Away or Way as I usually say. I think getting Bea to wait for you to come over and hook on her leash is a great stepping stone to her call off. And LUCKY you that you are getting to learn from an older dog. I always wish I could of done that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Lou's breeder uses Stay, which means literally freeze, even if you're in the middle of a turn. It's quite something to see! She trained and handled Lou as a nursery dog, and to this day, if you tell him Stay (when he's working), he will do his darndest to freeze right there, even if it means two feet in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted July 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Lou's breeder uses Stay, which means literally freeze, even if you're in the middle of a turn. It's quite something to see! She trained and handled Lou as a nursery dog, and to this day, if you tell him Stay (when he's working), he will do his darndest to freeze right there, even if it means two feet in the air. Yep, this is Bea's Wait command. She will freeze even in mid flight for a ball. Stay, I use for other circumstances. Sounds like Stand might be best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 I have a "wait" command on my dogs but it is not for sheep, it just means for them to wait while I open a door or gate instead of flattening me as they charge through. They know they are to wait until I say "O.K." Then I'm safely out of the way of the black and white tidal wave. I also have a stand command that is for stock work. I just use it as a "stay right there but up on your feet not on your belly" I have not noticed that the wait and way to me commands are confused but my dog is half deaf now anyways being an old fellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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