Voodoo

[rushdoggie]

Speaking of being a training geek, the first pressure/release combination you referred to sounded to me like P+ followed by R- (which of course we'd only know if we could see the dog's subsequent behavior). This may be stating the obvious, but it reminds me that there seems to be a great range of rewards and corrections used; not all sheepdog training is the same, not all sheepdog trainers use the same approach (to teach a down or other things). Having said that, while those of us who use primarily reward-based training with dogs may wonder, 'why not just use it alone to train sheepdogs?', at this point in my experience I guess I'd say this: if it is possible, then perhaps it would be at the expense of the other variables I listed, or at least not letting those other dynamics shine through as they otherwise might. This was no small thing for me to get my head around when I first started, but it has been worth it to try, as it is stretching my training brain, and really making me even more in awe of dogs, if that was possible.

 

Hi Barbara,

 

I don't know near enough about training dogs to work stock...which is why I asked Mr. McCaig to talk to me about how he might train a "non-stockwork" behavior as opposed to one I can't work with because I don't get it. I have zero doubt that there are factors outside of reinforcement that influence learning, including instinct, intelligence and desire.

 

My point was no so much that one approach in training is right or wrong...we have a whole 'nother thread for that but about how some aspects of learning are based on basic behavioral science, which Mr. McCaig states is discredited and false science.

[topnotchdog]

Hi Barbara,

 

I don't know near enough about training dogs to work stock...which is why I asked Mr. McCaig to talk to me about how he might train a "non-stockwork" behavior as opposed to one I can't work with because I don't get it. I have zero doubt that there are factors outside of reinforcement that influence learning, including instinct, intelligence and desire.

 

My point was no so much that one approach in training is right or wrong...we have a whole 'nother thread for that but about how some aspects of learning are based on basic behavioral science, which Mr. McCaig states is discredited and false science.

 

Ok, gotcha (looking for the little 'thumbs up' icon, must be here somewhere...)

 

B.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I thank Ms. Rushdoggie for her thoughtfulness, curiosity and courtesy. She writes “As I read this I am seeing the application and release of pressure as positive and negative reinforcement. Reinforcement does not always equal cookie. I also that "blocking his hearts desire" until he acknowleges you as a form of reinforcement.”

 

If that’s how she wants to understand “training the down” that’s fine with me. De gustibus.

 

Sheepdog training begins as a dance and is dependent on precise body language/conversation. As a rule, you cannot train a sheepdog if you’re a klutz. Some top trainers’ explanations of what they are doing make no intellectual sense. Some have never read a book. They talk DOG not WORDS.

 

As training progresses, the dance element is displaced by song and becomes subtler but never disappears.

 

Throughout the work, the sheep evaluate the predator dog and the predator human. How you and your dog seem to them and the clarity of man/dog, dog/sheep and man/sheep conversation determines results.

 

I am a writer but I know no book or video or intellectual construct that prepares a novice for the first time he/she walks into that small ring with his dog and ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. Previous work with a trained dog helps, horse experience helps. Experience in other dog venues, or theoretical understanding is more often impediment than not.

 

I’m tempted to extend the dance description to pet dog training. Pat Miller(positive) and Behesha Doan (ecollars) are fluid and precise. Watching them work a dog is a pleasure. Cesar Milan is a body language genius.

 

You got to get out and beat your feet.You ain’t got no thing if you ain’t got that swing,

 

Donald McCaig

[ThunderHill]

Dear Doggers,

 

You got to get out and beat your feet.You ain’t got no thing if you ain’t got that swing,

 

Donald McCaig

 

Cha-CHING!!!

 

Liz S in SCPA

[njnovice]

I'm going to weigh in with a couple things...

 

Rushdoggie: Mick is aversive to clickers. He honestly does not like the sound. No clue why, but I tried it, but he thinks clickers are evil. He's also not particularly motivated by food, but he does respond well to a "good Mick." For the most part, he honestly could care less about being pet, given a treat, being clicked, etc...but a "good Mick" or a "good boy" he likes. That's his reward. He's also very toy-motivated, but that's not very helpful for a lot of what I'm trying to do with him, but I will give him toy rewards on occasion. I have vastly improved his (infamously crappy) recall with frisbees, for example.

 

I walk him on a prong...on the live ring. He will ignore a dead ring correction. I do not believe in using a prong for a good chunk of dogs out there, but it works good on Mick, who will ignore/break any other form of collar/harness in his desire to pull.

 

I started Sinead on a prong, but she no longer needs one, and honestly, she'll walk at a heel with me off-leash anytime now. Recall was never an issue and I couldn't lose her if I tried. She is also VERY food motivated, and I have mostly used treats in training her. The one thing I have a hard time with is getting her to drop something she has. She just wants to pull and rip apart anything in her mouth. It's the one time treats don't work on her. I'm trying to figure out what will, without resorting to my breakstick, but I'm sure I'll figure something out. I'm honestly glad she only briefly needed a prong, because people routinely asked me if she wore one because she was "mean." Now, I just get called "mean" for having her wear a thick nylon collar. People can't complain too much once I explain it's safer for her neck because of pressure distribution.

 

Basically, I'm willing to try to find whatever works best for that individual dog.

[rushdoggie]

Rushdoggie: Mick is aversive to clickers. He honestly does not like the sound. No clue why, but I tried it, but he thinks clickers are evil.

 

There are absolutely dogs who dislike the sound, and Mick is not the only one. However, I would be hesitant to agree with the idea that most dogs do, simply because the vast majority of the dogs I know have no issue with the sound, even my super sound sensitive Border Collie who is afraid of the sound of a spoon falling on the table.

 

And, the clicker isn't really the point of training with a neutral stimuli...there's any one of a number of other sounds or even "non-sounds" that could be used if you were attempting to "clicker train" without actually using a clicker. I used a lazer light to train a fish to swim through a pipe cleaner hoop. When I "clicker trained" my patient as I described in another post to help him get the muscle memory to roll forward on his feet when standing, I used one of those little bells that you hit with your hand (like you might see on a hotel desk).

 

And FWIW: I think a prong collar is far kinder and safer than a slip collar or even a lot of pressure on a flat collar. It gives an instant feedback correction (even distributing that correction on the side with the pressure first, and doesn't put undue pressure on the trachea. My only issue with it is that I do not want to leave a prong on the dog, and I don't want to have to put one on every time I want my dog to walk nicely on a loose lead. I would rather teach that a loose lead is the desired outcome and not have to worry about what correction I give.

[geonni banner]

The one thing I have a hard time with is getting her to drop something she has. She just wants to pull and rip apart anything in her mouth. It's the one time treats don't work on her. I'm trying to figure out what will, without resorting to my breakstick, but I'm sure I'll figure something out.

 

I had a friend once who had the same problem with a Border Collie/Pit mix. What we finally worked out was walking around her saying "Drop it" and gently stepping on paws or gently pulling her tail. This would cause her to turn around curiously to follow the movement, and usually release what she had, to which we responded with "Good!", handed her something else to mouth. Repeat. Endlessly. It becomes a game. So dropping things on request is fun.

 

She wasn't turning around in a "Hey! why are you messing with me?" way. It was a "What are you up to now, silly human?" thing. And soon, a "What a great new game you've invented!" thing.

 

My Border Collie Sugarfoot is the same way. If we are playing - wrestling, tug, ball, whatever - and I pull her tail, she drops anything she may be holding (and goes into transports of joy.) Who knew having your tail pulled was so delightful? I've never had a dog that objected to having its tail pulled, but I've know dogs that did. If yours is one this might be the wrong way to go about getting her to drop things.

[njnovice]

[quote name='rushdoggie' date='Aug 20 2010, 11:14 AM' post='364496'

 

And FWIW: I think a prong collar is far kinder and safer than a slip collar or even a lot of pressure on a flat collar. It gives an instant feedback correction (even distributing that correction on the side with the pressure first, and doesn't put undue pressure on the trachea. My only issue with it is that I do not want to leave a prong on the dog, and I don't want to have to put one on every time I want my dog to walk nicely on a loose lead. I would rather teach that a loose lead is the desired outcome and not have to worry about what correction I give.

 

He only wears it when I'm walking him in a place where I know he'll get excited, such as parks and PetSmart. Walks around the property, he can go with his regular flat collar. He actually gets really excited when I take it out, because he knows he's going someplace fun. With Mick I tried several harnesses, the flat collar, reversing direction so he had to pay attention, etc, and the prong was the only thing that put him in line, and it did so immediately.

 

Sinead gets excited about her's, too. But she now walks without pulling in all scenarios, so she just wears a flat collar in all situations now.

[njnovice]

I had a friend once who had the same problem with a Border Collie/Pit mix. What we finally worked out was walking around her saying "Drop it" and gently stepping on paws or gently pulling her tail. This would cause her to turn around curiously to follow the movement, and usually release what she had, to which we responded with "Good!", handed her something else to mouth. Repeat. Endlessly. It becomes a game. So dropping things on request is fun.

 

She wasn't turning around in a "Hey! why are you messing with me?" way. It was a "What are you up to now, silly human?" thing. And soon, a "What a great new game you've invented!" thing.

 

My Border Collie Sugarfoot is the same way. If we are playing - wrestling, tug, ball, whatever - and I pull her tail, she drops anything she may be holding (and goes into transports of joy.) Who knew having your tail pulled was so delightful? I've never had a dog that objected to having its tail pulled, but I've know dogs that did. If yours is one this might be the wrong way to go about getting her to drop things.

 

I actually discovered that by accident the other day. She had the frisbee and I saw a tick on her hip, so I grabbed her collar and when I pulled the tick, she turned around and dropped the frisbee. She's been dropping stuff, if I lightly grab the skin on her side. It definitely doesn't hurt, and I'm using drop it with it. Hopefully soon she'll connect the two.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Tuesday evening I learned something new - more accurately, I began to learn something new.

 

Some background: I’m a sheepdog trainer, not a dog trainer. While my Border Collies are mannerly offleash in most rural and urban environments (Dupont Circle/DC, the 6th floor of the National Geographic Building) they don’t sit or stand for inspection and couldn’t pass a CGC test.

 

About ten years ago I began studying pet dog training for insights useful with my dogs and to contrast with sheepdog training. I’ve enjoyed my studies and met wonderful trainers who became friends.

 

Until Cesar Milan, the dominant pet dog training school was skinnerian behaviorism modified as clicker training.

 

I have reservations about clicker training. Skinner’s “scientific learning theory” is “scientism” and his concurrence with positivist epistimology (theory of knowledge) led him to an atomistic nurture over nature stance which has been discredited. Intellectually it’s a dud.

 

I’ve seen clicker training demonstrated at the Triple Crown Academy and by a half dozen agility instructors. I’ve attended a top positive trainer’s beginning and graduation classes.

 

I saw a method which kind of worked and probably would be effective teaching dog tricks. Of dozens, I saw one (1) mannerly clicker trained dog but none off leash.Despite the sanctimonious words I saw badly confused, yappy dogs that would kind of do simple tasks if begged to.

 

The religious fervor attending “positive” training is distasteful. It’s promises are witless (“This method can train your dog or your hubby.”) and unbelievers become “cruel”, “abusive” “neanderthals”. I know some of these neanderthals personally as sensible dog lovers who get better results and happier dogs than the positive trainers I’ve seen.

 

Earlier in this discussion, Kristine Hammar (Root Beer) and I disagreed but agreed to meet at the National Finals and afterwards at her training class.

 

I enjoyed talking with Kristine at the Finals and Tuesday attended her class.

 

The training facility was in the Pennsylvania countryside a few miles outside Carlyle. As I parked outside a steel frame building I heard classical music coming from a parked car, where two quiet dogs watched from the front seat as I passed.

 

Inside a commodius well equipped training building were three middelaged female students and their dogs - a German Shepherd (probably purebred since he was down in the hocks), a brown lab (mix?) and a Shepherd mix.

 

Each owner and dog were enclosed in a small (8 foot square?) area by blankets draped over four foot plastic barriers.

 

This was the last night of an 8 week beginner training class.

 

Kristine’s demo dog was confined in a large fabric crate with a sunroof through which she watched the goings on. From time to time she barked.

 

No doubt Kristine will correct my novice description of what I saw:

 

She told me she was using “Control Unleashed (CV)” methods and that these methods were controversial. Her students did use clickers and treats but the EVERYTHINGCRANKEDUP-OHWHATAGOODDOG atmosphere I’ve seen with other clicker trainers was absent. These dogs were being asked to think, not simply emote/react. Kristine spoke throughout about different “games” and I gather games are part of the CV method.

 

 

The first game I saw was bringing a dog around a freestanding post then to its mat. Kristine would first demonstrate and her students would replicate the moves. At no time did she approach her students’ dogs. Her students did the work.

 

 

The second game was a “focus” exercise. She had her students provide a distraction (something each different dog wanted) and when the dog turned its attention back to its handler it was rewarded. I understood the reasoning behind this exercise better than the first, but that was my mental incapacity, not the exercises.

 

At the end of the class, the students left one at a time with their dogs on loose leashes.

 

I thought the dogs I saw were engrossed in the training relationship and enjoying it. Unlike other clicker trained dogs I’ve seen they were calm and not confused. When they walked out of the building they had, I thought, the kind of relationship most people want with their pet dogs. The dogs were willing and happy.

 

I know Kristine will do a better job of explaining than I have. Why is this method “controversial”?

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

Let me say first off that meeting Mr. McCaig, both at Finals and at my class, was a pleasure. I think on the boards the love and appreciation that we all have for these dogs, and the fact that we really are most interested in their well being often gets lost. Meeting and talking really gave me a new perspective. But mostly I simply flat out enjoyed it.

 

Mr. McCaig explained what was going on as the dogs ran at the Finals, and answered question after question after question! It is one thing to watch with no idea what is going on, but it is definitely better to hear some of the whys and wherefores of what was happening.

 

And we talked training, which I enjoyed thoroughly.

 

The training facility was in the Pennsylvania countryside a few miles outside Carlyle. As I parked outside a steel frame building I heard classical music coming from a parked car, where two quiet dogs watched from the front seat as I passed.

 

They do love to watch everyone come and go.

 

No doubt Kristine will correct my novice description of what I saw:

 

She told me she was using “Control Unleashed (CV)” methods and that these methods were controversial. Her students did use clickers and treats but the EVERYTHINGCRANKEDUP-OHWHATAGOODDOG atmosphere I’ve seen with other clicker trainers was absent. These dogs were being asked to think, not simply emote/react. Kristine spoke throughout about different “games” and I gather games are part of the CV method.

 

I do wish I had a video of this group from our first week of class! The Shepherd and Shepherd mix were a mess. The Shepherd barked almost the entire time. The Shepherd mix was so anxious, she could do nothing but bounce around at the end of the leash!

 

Still, I know that isn't what you mean by "cranked up".

 

Yes, the "games" are the "exercises" that are used in CU.

 

The first game I saw was bringing a dog around a freestanding post then to its mat. Kristine would first demonstrate and her students would replicate the moves. At no time did she approach her students’ dogs. Her students did the work.

 

It occurred to me afterward that we did not revisit this later in class, as I had said we would.

 

Once the dogs are good at this game, we use it in a way that is similar to the game where the dog looked at things that have caused the dog problems (like the crate being unzippered, the dog approaching, or the presence of a person) and then looked back to the handler.

 

Eventually, once the dogs know the game, they will play it in the presence of those things. So, the Shepherd that reacts when he hears crates open and close will play this game as crates are opening and closing. Eventually, he will play it in sight of a dog going in and out of a crate. The point is for the dog to learn that he or she can focus, and continue to do things, in the presence of the things that have previously set them off (or distracted them or caused them stress, etc.). The Lab mix will play next to another dog that is playing the same game. The Shepherd mix will eventually play this as people walk by and, later on, when dogs walk by with people.

 

The dog has just two tasks - go out around the post, go to mat and sit or lie down on it. As the dog completes this, he or she is tuned into the handler, but is working independently at the same time.

 

Another purpose of this game is actually to get the handler to the point where he or she starts to have trust in the dog's ability to stay connected and calm around those things. It gives them a chance to practice that. The more the handler is able to trust the dog in real life, the faster things start to progress.

 

I thought the dogs I saw were engrossed in the training relationship and enjoying it. Unlike other clicker trained dogs I’ve seen they were calm and not confused. When they walked out of the building they had, I thought, the kind of relationship most people want with their pet dogs. The dogs were willing and happy.

 

I know Kristine will do a better job of explaining than I have. Why is this method “controversial”?

 

You know, that is a good question. Maybe "controversial" wasn't the best choice of words to describe what I meant, but I honestly can't think of a better way to say it.

 

What it comes down to, I think, is that CU includes a different way of doing several key things. Those of us who use this approach allow our dogs to look at things they want to look at, enjoy things like sniffing or looking around, and move at the pace that the dog needs to move at to be successful - those at the same time that we are teaching focus and the ability to think through challenging situations. And I'm not saying that other types of training (any and all types) exclude these things, but there is a difference and that sometimes leads to debate.

[Sue R]

I saw a method which kind of worked and probably would be effective teaching dog tricks. Of dozens, I saw one (1) mannerly clicker trained dog but none off leash.Despite the sanctimonious words I saw badly confused, yappy dogs that would kind of do simple tasks if begged to...

 

She told me she was using “Control Unleashed (CV)” methods and that these methods were controversial. Her students did use clickers and treats but the EVERYTHINGCRANKEDUP-OHWHATAGOODDOG atmosphere I’ve seen with other clicker trainers was absent. These dogs were being asked to think, not simply emote/react. Kristine spoke throughout about different “games” and I gather games are part of the CV method...Her students did the work...

 

At the end of the class, the students left one at a time with their dogs on loose leashes...

 

I thought the dogs I saw were engrossed in the training relationship and enjoying it. Unlike other clicker trained dogs I’ve seen they were calm and not confused. When they walked out of the building they had, I thought, the kind of relationship most people want with their pet dogs. The dogs were willing and happy.Donald McCaig

My dogs, as young pups and younger dogs, and myself took a number of classes that were taught positively at the Mountaineer Kennel Club in Morgantown WV. Later, I was an assistant for several years in puppy and family dog classes. While clicker training was offered as one alternative, my natural uncoordination left me using my voice instead but I know/knew a number of handlers who clicker-trained their dogs.

 

Never did I see a "ramped up" dog in the obedience classes or owned by any of these instructors (that was sometimes seen with some handlers and their dogs in the agility classes, but not a majority at all). They were mannerly, quiet, responsive, happy, socialized, easy-to-live-with dogs (and good, caring handlers).

 

Glad you got to see this - I think as in all methods, it's not just the method but also (and maybe more importantly) the person implementing the method that makes the difference.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

My friend Sue wrote (in part) that at the Mountaineer KC "Never did I see a "ramped up" dog in the obedience classes or owned by any of these instructors (that was sometimes seen with some handlers and their dogs in the agility classes, but not a majority at all). They were mannerly, quiet, responsive, happy, socialized, easy-to-live-with dogs (and good, caring handlers)."

 

 

I think Sue was blessed. While I haven't been to the Mountaineer KC, my impression of positive, agility and at least some drive trainers is they artificially excite their dogs. Some of the agility Border Collies I've seen were so cranked they barked as they performed. Barked!

 

And the "Good Dog! Oh what a good dog! Good sit! Good dog" blether was continuous.

 

I am glad to learn that cranking dogs to mindlessness and blethering at them is not universal. I was pleased to see Kristine and her pupils treating their dogs as if they could think.

 

A couple years back I attended a noted trainer's camp. A student guided me to the coffee and I told June to down/stay outdoors. When we came out, the student exclaimed "Oh what a Good! Good! Dog!"

 

I asked her why she was praising a dog for doing what it ought to.

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

I think Sue was blessed. While I haven't been to the Mountaineer KC, my impression of positive, agility and at least some drive trainers is they artificially excite their dogs...I am glad to learn that cranking dogs to mindlessness and blethering at them is not universal. I was pleased to see Kristine and her pupils treating their dogs as if they could think...I asked her why she was praising a dog for doing what it ought to.

Donald McCaig

Well, I feel very blessed to have worked with the people at MKC that I did work with - they were/are folks who have their feet firmly planted on the ground. Of course, I did not work with any competition obedience groups, just puppy and family dog classes, and they were working for thinking, sane, mannerly dogs that would be a pleasure to live in anyone's home.

 

And I know there were people who were more into cranking and blathering, but not the better instructors or the better handlers. I sometimes get a bit blather-y myself.

 

In thinking this over, I remember that some instructors and students were a bit more "enthusiastic" than I about praise and so on but, by and large, the approach I saw turned out people with improved dog skills, and dogs with improved people skills, and both much happier as they progressed.