ejano Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 The point being to me that a reputable breeder is not trying to produce an *ordinary* litter. I think in this case "ordinary" meant that no particular health or emergency medical problems emerged with either the mother or the pups that would raise the expense of having the litter....not the quality of the of the breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 (raw incidentally, lots costlier than kibble), RDM Completely OT, but can I quote you RDM the next time we're discussing raw feeding and all the raw feeders out there insist that raw can be fed as economically as kibble? As for making money or not on a litter, I agree that reputable breeders *ought* to be able to make money on well-thought-out, good litters (just as I think that trial hosts ought to make money before any payout for trial winners is considered, but that's a very big tangent). I don't think it always happens. This sort of ties in to the discussions we've had here about whether working breeders would sell to non-working homes and whether those same breeders would increase the number of breedings they did if there was a greater market among, say, sport people. I think if working breeders produced *more* good litters, then their potential for profit rises. That's probably more practical for the owner of a stud dog since the dog can be bred multiple times with no loss of working time, while breeding your bitch takes her out of commission for a period of time, which means that you wouldn't have much use of her if you were breeding her fairly often. And a whole different topic would be what's a fair price for a working-bred pup? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 By the same token, a responsible, ethical breeder of quality stock that did all the tests and other vet stuff, paid a stud fee and did vaccinations, chipping, and all the other things that a pup or young dog might require might not make a profit at $600.00 per pup. Especially if he grew them out sufficiently to put time into training and evaluation for working ability. No actually, I completely disagree, did you read my post? Again, the vaccinations, chipping, vet "stuff" and stud fee do not amount to more than the total sum earned in pup sales. Yes, I have paid for CERF and PENN-HIP, I do no know what those costs are. I still think there is a profit on the pups in an ordinary litter of well bred $600.00 working puppies. And thank you ejano, for understanding the juxtaposition of my use of the word ordinary in a sentence next to the use of extraordinary relative to the context of the definition - I was indeed referring to the cost incurred in whelping the litter, not the "quality" of the pups. I don't know very many stockdog breeders who "grow out" their entire litters for at least a year or whatever to evaluate working ability - they may hold back one of two, but generally they put training on them and then sell them for more like $2000.00, so while in a time-input versus sale calculation there might incur a loss in the end, it's not ordinary practice to to with an entire litter, and I don't count it as part of whelping out a litter and selling the pups at 8 weeks. One might even argue that if an ethical breeder has put thought into a planned litter, it's a given the pups should work, so why even bring that up right? But that's where we get into the realm of stuff I'm not talking about. I get what people are trying to say about the overall big picture, bitch out of working condition while whelping, striving to produce superior puppies etc. etc. etc. But I promise you all, I don't pull this stuff out of my arse because I'm trying to represent an anti-breeder or contrary viewpoint. I've looked at a lot of litters, a lot of prices and a lot of dogs and talked to a lot of breeders and I've done the math. There is indeed a profit to be made, even when you factor in the health checks, stud fees and puppy rearing costs. I'm not talking about make-your-living-off-it profits, I'm talking about money in your pocket once all those sales are done, and it's not such an insignificant amount. I guess I just don't understand why it's such a taboo to admit it. This exact same discussion happens in the ACK/conformation and other working breed world too, and the party line is that there is no profit in a well bred litter. A friend of mine paid $900 for her CBR puppy out of a litter of 8. You're telling me that there is no profit in the $7200.00 of puppy sales? Or should I factor in the hunt test titles and ACK conformation titles here too? A friend of mine paid $800. for her sport bred BC, which she shipped here - litter of 6 pups = $4800. No profit? I guess not if we factor in the entry fees for agility trials the breeder paid to get the whatever her venue equivalent of an ATCh is on the bitch, and the time taken out of trialing to raise the pups. Or can we not factor those in because they aren't stockdog trials and clinics? You see my point, yes? Rescue in this case gets a "deal" when it comes to puppies. You have relatively no initial purchase price, you did not have to raise the parent (and other dogs as well - because we know they all don't turn out breeding quality) out to a reasonable age, you spend no time researching studs nor paying stud fees/transportation feeds, the parent dog does not have to be trained or proven in any way, and you are only responsible that the puppies are in good homes for life - not that they can or will be of any sort of working or genetic qualities. All of these things cost money, if not in outright cash in many, many hours of time spent. Gosh, no, you're right. It only cost me $450.00 to fly the bitch here, $55.00 in long distance phone calls, untold hours in phone and email time lining up a foster home and talking them through their first litter, time off work transporting her from the airport to her foster home, hundreds of hours of wading through over 200 applications for the puppies, time and gas doing home visits, vet appointments for the pups, vet bills for pre-pregnancy x-rays and post birth visits for monitoring the pups as they weren't gaining weight too well at first, costs to feed the pups, deworm the pups, neuter, vaccinate, tattoo and microchip the pups ... and "all" I'm responsible for is making sure they get good homes, and being available to take them back for the next 15 years of my life. No comparison, you're totally correct A super deal for me. Please. Anyway, I'm sorry to have brought it up at all, I just really don't see what the big deal is about admitting that yes, when you sell 8 puppies for $500.00 or whatever, you pocket some cash. I don't understand why a responsible breeder has to shit money every time they let the word "breeding" pop into their head in order to maintain that designation of "responsible" or they lose it like a cell phone down the toilet. You can do it well, you can do it right, and still admit you bought a new washer and dryer with the proceeds. I guess I never really understood why it's so BAD to be a good breeder and still make money. Like I said - I think the good ones should be making money. *shrug* Julie - you won't get any argument from me! Raw costs more than kibble, I think ... 'course it's been a long time since I bought kibble, but I do shell out a pretty penny to feed 6 dogs raw. I just did that math the other day, and I feel kinda sick now, akshully ;-) And hey, just to lighten things up a bit since I'm really not trying to piss anyone off, here's a goofy photo of Wootie and the TWoo! Cheers, RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 Julie - you won't get any argument from me! Raw costs more than kibble, I think ... 'course it's been a long time since I bought kibble, but I do shell out a pretty penny to feed 6 dogs raw. I just did that math the other day, and I feel kinda sick now, akshully ;-) Cheers, RDM Love the photos.... There's a reason I'm an English teacher, but I "crunched" the numbers on the kibble I feed (Primitive Naturals) and while it seems pricey at the counter -- $42.00 for 28 pound bag --- I think (if all my decimals are in the right place) I'm feeding my three for less than $5.00 a day and they look darned good, no health problems and are a perfect weight. Even Brodie, my beanpole, is perfectly presentable in public. My two pups were fed a mixture of kibble and a natural diet as they transferred from nursing and I have to admit that I politely refused an offer of goat's milk and chopped liver as a baby gift...couldn't stomach at the time but mine were darned healthy pups! I had been feeding Canidea but for some reason I didn't like that for the pups...can't remember why. I bought them I what I thought was the best substitute (Hills Science) - Robin did okay on it, Ladybug didn't look good (I had gotten her the "age appropriate variety which I now believe is at best, is an individual choice, and at worst, crap) and Brodie didn't particularly like it and as he grew out of puppy fat, I couldn't keep weight on him and I have to look the breeder in the eye every week or so, so I did some more research, sought opinions (here and there) and found Primitive Naturals....it looks pricey on the shelf but they all eat it immediately with no waste and it saved me from goat's milk and chopped liver . Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 I guess I never really understood why it's so BAD to be a good breeder and still make money. Like I said - I think the good ones should be making money. *shrug*RDM Yes, I did read your whole post and pretty much agreed with it - what I said was that,"By the same token, a responsible, ethical breeder of quality stock that did all the tests and other vet stuff, paid a stud fee and did vaccinations, chipping, and all the other things that a pup or young dog might require might not make a profit at $600.00 per pup. Especially if he grew them out sufficiently to put time into training and evaluation for working ability." I'm sure there are those who are producing good dogs responsibly AND making a profit, and I say good for them. I was actually pointing out that some times crap breeders make a higher profit margin than good ones. And further, I've never heard anyone complain here about a quality breeder of quality dogs making some money from it. Certainly I don't. What I do hear people complaining about is people who are breeding mediocre to crap dogs for the sole reason of raking in the Benjamins. In addition, I've never heard anyone here being dismissive, critical or have anything but admiration for the time money and emotional investments made by those people who do quality rescue. I've done it myself. A lot. It's a hard row to hoe with some few shining moments for a reward. Now here's my silly picture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 And hey, just to lighten things up a bit since I'm really not trying to piss anyone off, here's a goofy photo of Wootie and the TWoo! Cheers, RDM Wow! Two hunky dogs! Made my night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 This is just a little story on the profitability of BYB. A young lady I know has a bulldog who has twice been knocked up by her familys black lab. I have no idea why the lab has not been fixed but the bulldog has not been fixed as she has plans to breed her. The dog has papers but is not shown etc. Now for the profit part - female dog was taken to the vet for check-ups but nothing elaborate, (she is a loved pet so I do know that if she had needed a C-section all profit would have gone out the window) whelping was done at home by the owner and each one of those pups (who were awfully cute) sold for $250.00 through an advert on Kijji. I can't remember how many pups there where in each litter but over 6. This was a nice profit for someone who has just graduated college and does not have a grown-up job yet. The sad part is she should know better her major: Animal science and management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 hundreds of hours of wading through over 200 applications for the puppies, I'm not really getting into this argument. I pretty much agree with RDM and know people who don't call themselves breeders but do breed their dogs on occasion and yes they make money. But I did have to comment on the above statement... WOW, I'm truely amazed that you have that many applications for puppies. Such a gift to be burdened with that many. Yes it's allot of work to wade through them but a blessing that you have that many to wade through. Shows your work is paying off in one way if not another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Hey Kristen, I expect that the number of applications they get for adult dogs is lower. Everyone wants a cute puppy, so it stands to reason that in a litter of 8 pups 20 people might apply for any one of them. That can add up fast! A true blessing would be if they had such a call for their adults as well. Maybe RDM will tell us how it is for the older dogs? It would be awesome if they had those numbers for most dogs! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Hey Kristen,I expect that the number of applications they get for adult dogs is lower. Everyone wants a cute puppy, so it stands to reason that in a litter of 8 pups 20 people might apply for any one of them. That can add up fast! A true blessing would be if they had such a call for their adults as well. Maybe RDM will tell us how it is for the older dogs? It would be awesome if they had those numbers for most dogs! J. Not everyone wants a cute puppy. We always went for older dogs, until we lost our minds and got Brodie and Robin (then we remembered why we adopted older dogs . But yes, older dogs are generally more difficult to place because of the "cuteness" factor and then when the cute wears off, the puppy comes zinging back.... our local SPCA works with adopters to work out the kinks in behavioral issues (chewing, etc.) before they get to be a problem so the dog isn't a boomerang.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 So true Juile The few dogs I've fostered and placed took me over a year or so to find the right homes. It didn't come easy. Yes, Sheena do you have that much success for older dogs too? I sure hope so or at least 1/2 that many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbone Posted August 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2010 Here is an update on those 2 dogs, They are truly wondefull dogs and what matters the most is I am happy and they seem very happy too! I couldn't pass up on the sibling for only $25 dollars more he is precious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoga Posted August 30, 2010 Report Share Posted August 30, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 ^^^ Great one, Donna! A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 Congratulations, Dogbone. Good luck. I just hope you're prepared for theupcoming logistics of training two siblings who have grown up together. The human usually becomes pretty superfluous, if one is not careful ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 Once again Donna nailed it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jingi Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 i found this thread to be quite entertaining and illuminating. my search started more than a year ago. i started looking for breeders in japan and found it very difficult. i joined this board as a source of information. i did a lot of lurking, a little posting and read anything that i felt was important for my search. i've read books on dog training, canine evolution, researched as much as i can to learn about dogs from the tip of their wet noses to the tips of their tales and all points in between. i have learned a LOT and i am still learning! one thing that i have learned, from this board and from this thread, are that there are a lot of different viewpoints (some of them more valid than others, in my OPINION) and it seems that there is also no one "perfect" way to go about this. there are some on this board who got their dogs from breeders, some who got them from rescue and others who got them from some less "reputable" places or "found" them in some backlot/street corner/roaming the area. i've noticed are that the results are across the board. there are/were rescue dogs that were great and then some that were not so great, the same can be said of the dogs from the less reputable places. and i'm sure it happens with the good breeders too, because ultimately it's a crap shoot when it comes to the genes. a lot of people here and out in the world will swear by the "genetics" of a breed. i think it is very important to ensure that a dog comes from good "genes". but, the genes aren't the end-all be-all of a dog. it's what the animal's human companions do as well. i know, i know, the old "nature vs. nurture" debate. a good friend of mine once said: "a dog is what you make of him". and that also ties in with the other topic that cropped up on this thread, responsible dog owners. what is a responsible dog owner? it's not about s/n, it's not about herding lessons, agility, what kind of diet you feed your dog. it's about giving your dog what it needs to be healthy, happy and just loving life. if that means s/n, great! if not, no problem. but it is the owner's responsibility to make the right choices, not allowing your dog to make the wrong choices and to do what's best for the animal. and every dog is different. just looking at all the stories on this board tells you that. having said that, there are a lot of irresponsible people out there. stupid is just ubiquitous in our society. personally, i'm all for making people have a mandatory class about animal care and also some sort of animal license. we have to get a license to drive a car/own a gun/get married/hunt/fish/start a business. we don't have to have a license to have kids or a pet. maybe we should. it might help get rid of the stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 ^^Just thought this might bear repeating.... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 So true JuileThe few dogs I've fostered and placed took me over a year or so to find the right homes. It didn't come easy. Yes, Sheena do you have that much success for older dogs too? I sure hope so or at least 1/2 that many. So sorry - somewhere along the line, I lost this thread. No, we don't have the same kind of success with / interest in older dogs. The average stay for an adult in rescue is anywhere from 2 -8 months. I find that young adult FEMALES will typically go right away, in a matter of weeks - especially if they have lots of white on them. Young adult males take a bit longer no matter what they look like. Anything over 3-4 years old may take months and months to place, and then the seniors generally go pretty quickly because there is a specific segment of adopters who like seniors. But dogs between the ages of about 4-9 are practically impossible to place. People who want seniors don't want the energy of a younger dog, and people who want a younger dog don't want it to get old within a few years. Dogs with "issues" can take longer, or never get adopted. I have had dogs with "issues" in rescue for upwards of a year or longer. In the last year or two, Dex's litter excepted, I have even had difficulty placing puppies. I have had all of one application for Race. Twist has had just 5 - there is also a weird grey area for dogs under a year, who are not 8 weeks old. Those dogs are not little puppies and not adult dogs, and they fall through the "adopter attraction" crevice. People who want puppies want PUPPIES, it seems like. That litter was very popular, and I am sure if I had another litter of pups raised in rescue, or who were very young, they would go pretty quick. Once they get to 4-5 months old, people lose interest. The adopting dynamic is incredibly frustrating. And I don't know if it's the economy or what, but in general we get a lot less interest in dogs than we used to. Granted, we have placed nearly 800 border collies in the last decade or so, so maybe it's just that we saturated the local market ;-) (doG knows my household is saturated, and 5 dogs is more than enough for me!!) But whatever it is, rescue gets a little more discouraging all the time. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuthBelle Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 Dogbone, I wish you well with your pups and hope they bring you much happiness and lifelong companionship. My merle (that's another topic for debate) BC Belle was a product of a BYB (a coworker who has since spayed and neutured the sire and bitch) and my BCx Watson was a humane society refugee. Bob and I absoulety love those two---they bring us so much fun and joy. Yes, I feel somewhat guilty about where Belle came from, but she's mine now, and being spayed she won't be contributing to the BC and dogs in general overpopulation. Who knows about Watson's story, we feel very lucky to have come across him. They're both great dogs. Like it or not, there is always going to be someone who falls for a cute puppy with their hearts instead of their brains. Maybe the answer to the problem is strict governmental regulation, with required knowledge training and licensing as to who breeds dogs, cats, horses or any species of animal for resale. Inspections, testing, conformation and breed specific performance guidelines. Stiff monetary penalties for those who don't have the required licenses. Laws with some backing behind them. Nah, not gonna happen. Most governmental agencies (at least in my county) can't even force folks to get dog tags for their dogs, even with laws for it on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 Well, I guess I got Star from a backyard breeder. I started my search with bc rescue and the local shelters. BC rescue did not have pups. I looked and looked. Found another rescue that had a bc pup but would not get back to me, then wanted to do a home visit but would not make herself available at a time when my daughter wasn't home (supposed to be a gift for my daughter). Ultimately, the foster decided to keep that pup. I visited every shelter in the dfw area. That's a lot of shelters--and a gazillion hours--and a bazillion gallons of gas! And it was so heartbreaking. I love dogs, like we all do, and I wanted to take every one of them home. There were so many good dogs at these shelters. I still feel guilty for not getting one of them (especially that yellow lab--he still sticks in my mind), but it was a bc pup we were after. I ran into a guy who had bc pups for sale, and went to look. I cried all the way home (1.5 hours) because the puppies were so obviously sick and very afraid. I wish I could have taken all of them. At this point, I was disheartened and ready to give up. Then I learned of a rancher nearby who had a couple of pups for sale. I thought, oh crap, here we go again...I went to look. The parents were there that day, working, and I must say I was impressed (but maybe not very hard to do given my lack of knowledge). One pup left when I got there. Father a BC and mother a Kelpie. Star was playful, happy, and cared for. It was clear the rancher cared about his dogs and this pup. He did very sincerely tell me that if it didn't work out for any reason he wanted her back. That's my justification I guess. But at this point, I was glad to find one who was healthy and well treated. I've no doubt that this guy will breed again and sell the puppies again. And certainly he is making money doing it. My understanding is he sells them to other ranchers who want working dogs. I did know better, but went ahead anyway. Star has been a fabulous puppy and I know down the road I'll consider her one of the best dogs ever. So I lucked out. And I hope that I get a little bit of credit for being a person who provides a happy, lifetime home for her animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 As to an earlier comment, my boss rescues huskies and I helped her out on a mission in our area--a local mother/daughter team had been breeding their huskies and now found themselves with too many dogs, and no money to feed or care for them. They wanted to surrender two of the puppies to the rescue. My boss said, sure but only if you let us spay and neuter the parents. They hemmed and hawed. I went out to take pics of the pups and get a feel for their personalities, also took some kibble, leashes, special shampoo (one had skin issues). Spent some time friending the daughter, talking with her about training, about her pups, what school she went to, etc. I think after meeting me and talking with us over the phone, they got comfortable with the idea of "someone else" spaying/neutering their dogs. So that scenario worked out really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 My advice, and I don't mean this in a nasty way, is hang on for the ride....we brought two boys home from the same litter, and we did it with knowledge aforethought, a good deal of literature tucked under our arms and a support structure in place (knowledgeable people we could call on for advice and training) and it's still been quite the experience... we've enjoyed the past year, but it's completely different from having just one pup. Ours are 17 months old now and things are just starting to settle down as they ease out of the "teen-age" stage. But they still require, and we gladly give, a good deal of time and attention. They're from herding/trial lines, so the fun is really just beginning with them. You want those dogs to be focused on you, not each other and if you are the only person in the house, that's going to take some time and work to give them individual time and attention. Don't worry so much about who is "dominant" between them. They'll sort that out. What they need to have clear in their heads is that you are SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED. Always. You can easily spend an hour or two each day working with them...training, and playing and exercising them , talking to them, taking care of their health needs (brushing, nail clipping, whatever) -- all on an individual basis. Any play that you do with them together must be geared to not raising competition levels between them. When they are together, they learn to take turns for your attention, not compete for it. "WAIT" is the number 1 command in our house. For example, in the beginning, my husband would toss a ball, Ladybug (who is our older rescue dog) would race after it and the pups would run after her. We didn't realize then that even something as simple as throwing a ball and letting them all chase after it could trigger a problem between the boys. Nobody touches the ball when Ladybug is on the field but they would bump at each other, competing for the number 2 position and that competition spilled over into other areas. So, they needed to learn to take turns. Now, I think I've got the makings of a pretty good flyball team . They all line up and eagerly "wait" for their turn to run after the ball, bring it back and drop back in line again for their turn. Ladybug already knew the game and it only took about a year's worth of work and constant repetition on "taking turns" at everything to get the boys to override those early days when we let them all charge after the ball without thought. It's easy to make mistakes and it takes a long time to fix them. My other thought is, and this flies in the face of current thought that suggests male dogs should be 18 months to 2 years old before neutering, is to get them neutered as soon as possible. There is some literature that indicates that same-sex dogs in a household tend to get along much better if neutered early, as late neutered dogs tend to hold on to some of the behaviors of intact dogs, which can cause continuing tension between the two. Also, there will be much less risk of them wandering off and the occurrence of an unplanned breeding. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 RDM, the same applies for breeders trying to sell dogs. People either want little puppies (under 10 weeks), started young dogs (1 to 2 yrs) or retired schooling dogs. Sure, middle aged dogs sell, but people seem suspicious as to why someone is selling a dog in its prime (is there something wrong with the dog? is it not good enough?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbone Posted August 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 My advice, and I don't mean this in a nasty way, is hang on for the ride....we brought two boys home from the same litter, and we did it with knowledge aforethought, a good deal of literature tucked under our arms and a support structure in place (knowledgeable people we could call on for advice and training) and it's still been quite the experience... we've enjoyed the past year, but it's completely different from having just one pup. Ours are 17 months old now and things are just starting to settle down as they ease out of the "teen-age" stage. But they still require, and we gladly give, a good deal of time and attention. They're from herding/trial lines, so the fun is really just beginning with them. You want those dogs to be focused on you, not each other and if you are the only person in the house, that's going to take some time and work to give them individual time and attention. Don't worry so much about who is "dominant" between them. They'll sort that out. What they need to have clear in their heads is that you are SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED. Always. You can easily spend an hour or two each day working with them...training, and playing and exercising them , talking to them, taking care of their health needs (brushing, nail clipping, whatever) -- all on an individual basis. Any play that you do with them together must be geared to not raising competition levels between them. When they are together, they learn to take turns for your attention, not compete for it. "WAIT" is the number 1 command in our house. For example, in the beginning, my husband would toss a ball, Ladybug (who is our older rescue dog) would race after it and the pups would run after her. We didn't realize then that even something as simple as throwing a ball and letting them all chase after it could trigger a problem between the boys. Nobody touches the ball when Ladybug is on the field but they would bump at each other, competing for the number 2 position and that competition spilled over into other areas. So, they needed to learn to take turns. Now, I think I've got the makings of a pretty good flyball team . They all line up and eagerly "wait" for their turn to run after the ball, bring it back and drop back in line again for their turn. Ladybug already knew the game and it only took about a year's worth of work and constant repetition on "taking turns" at everything to get the boys to override those early days when we let them all charge after the ball without thought. It's easy to make mistakes and it takes a long time to fix them. My other thought is, and this flies in the face of current thought that suggests male dogs should be 18 months to 2 years old before neutering, is to get them neutered as soon as possible. There is some literature that indicates that same-sex dogs in a household tend to get along much better if neutered early, as late neutered dogs tend to hold on to some of the behaviors of intact dogs, which can cause continuing tension between the two. Also, there will be much less risk of them wandering off and the occurrence of an unplanned breeding. Liz Thanks for the advice its much appreciated. Oh by the way I am a HE lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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