Shaping Behaviors

[eclare]

Because Seamus is beyond basic manners but still too young to start agility, I recently enrolled us in a Tricks class just to keep practicing the art of learning in a distracting environment. (And thank doG I did, because at 8 months he has become a reactive mess in class, which I would not have known if we had just trained at home until he was old enough for agility. Now we have plenty of time to work on his reactivity before we can start agility and he has actually improved immensely in just a couple weeks.)

 

Anyway, I really love the instructor in this class because she is very understanding and tolerant of my crazy reactive puppy. But she is really into teaching tricks through shaping. The problem for me is that I have worked very hard to train both of my dogs for attention and self control. This means that they are amazing at patiently sitting and waiting for me to give them a treat.

 

So, the way this plays out is as follows: If I'm training "go to mat", I'm supposed to let the dog wander around and click every time he turns toward or shows any interest in the mat. Eventually, I start to click and treat for putting one paw on the mat, then two, then all four, etc. What actually happens is that the dog sits in front of me with his eyes completely focused on my face. I've tried to wait it out, but I have clearly worked too hard on the focus, because both of my dogs will wait FOREVER.

 

If anyone has any thoughts on how to shape a dog that has spent its life waiting for direction, I would love to hear them.

[Carlasl]

I am not a purist when it comes to shaping, especially a dog who has never been shaped before, I don't mind "helping" them a bit. I would probably start walking toward the mat or when you put the mat down act like it is the coolest thing in the world, and then when they step on it click it and then start going from there. Once you shape a behavior or two the dog learns to start offering behaviors and it isn't so hard.

 

If I throw some random thing on the floor and I have a clicker, my dog starts interacting with it immediately to see what I am wanting. But it takes a few times to get them to realize what they are suppose to do.

 

Really it shouldn't take long for them to start offering behaviors, but it certainly doesn't hurt to help them out, just don't talk much....use your body language to show them what you want, and don't name any behavior until they are doing exactly what you want the end behavior to be.

[muttlycrew]

I am not an expert at shaping and I admit I use different methods (shaping, luring, etc) depending on what I'm trying to train. For dogs who have never shaped before, I load the clicker and make sure they have a decent understanding of what the clicker means. The first thing I teach a dog through shaping is to touch a target. I get myself set up with my clicker/treats and the dog, then I toss the target on the floor. Out of curiosity, most dogs immediately go to see what it is you just tossed on the floor. The second they investigate (I don't care if they nose touch, paw, lick, etc at first) I click and jackpot.

 

Now if I put an item on the floor my dogs immediately go towards it and offer behaviors to see what I'm looking for.

 

When I taught my newest addition to go "place", I started with me sitting on the couch and the bed next to me on the floor. I tried to wait for her to offer any movement towards the bed. For the first training session she didn't budge. I could see she (and myself) was getting frustrated and confused so I decided to help her be successful by luring her on to the bed and click/treating. I did this for one session and then stopped.

 

For the second session she went to the bed on her own, so I gave her a jackpot. She caught on quickly after that, so I then started waiting for her to offer me a down. Jackpot! Then I started adding distance and time. It only took Stella a few days to understand the whole concept.

 

I'll be interested to hear how others have taught this either through shaping or by other methods.

[rushdoggie]

Agreed that "target" is the easiest thing to shape...choose something novel if you can so the dog is super interested as soon as you set it down. Put the dog on a wait, set it down quickly, move to a standing or sitting position a bit away from the item, and release the dog. Keep it relaxed, chances are he will check out the weird thing. Click for any interaction with it. The first few times you do this, he should get a rapid fire set of rewards for that interaction. If he hesitates, be patient. The first time he will have to work on figuring it out.

 

After just a few minutes, tell him you are done, throw a treat the opposite way and pick up the object. Your body language should scream "we're done" and ignore all other interactions with it (like if he tries to jump up and get it, etc).

 

Do several 2 minute sessions in a day. He will catch on.

 

In my experience, until your dog "gets" the shaping game, clicking for looking at or towards it can be kind of confusing to the dog. Once hes an expert at the game, he will figure it out.

 

Once he is willing running off to investigate "novel thing" try his mat. Everything else in the picture can be the same. He will likely head right for the mat after he is released.

 

"Self Control" and the ability to be shaped are not mutually exclusive, its just going to take him longer to get the game.

 

And, shaping can be hard...don't be down on yourself or him if he doesn't get it.

[topnotchdog]

So, the way this plays out is as follows: If I'm training "go to mat", I'm supposed to let the dog wander around and click every time he turns toward or shows any interest in the mat.

 

If anyone has any thoughts on how to shape a dog that has spent its life waiting for direction, I would love to hear them.

 

As you imply, the key is to get the wandering around started. To do that, just toss a treat on the floor a few feet from you. (You may need to give your dog permission to go get it. ) Toss it such your dog won't eat it and then just end up in a sit right in front of you again. Rather, toss it such that, as soon as he eats the treat, his next move will be to turn and step in the direction of the mat. Click that first footfall and then toss the reward slightly out *behind* him. That is like pressing "restart" and will help you skip the sitting/attention to you altogether.

 

When that is fluid, you can start varying whether you reward him on the mat (might give him a hint to hang out there), or whether you need to toss it a few feet (to keep him wandering in order to create more opportunities to click).

 

My 2 cents is that it is worth the trouble. There are other ways to train a reliable mat behavior. But to attempt to train it in a different way than the one you're familiar with stretches both you and your dog, and admire you for giving it a go!

 

B.

[Mariji]

I am a complete shaping nutter and use it for everything. I see in my students that it is one of the hardest thigns to do is teach a dog to offer behaviours. Dogs natural shape in their environment so it is a learnt thing to offer nothing to their owner when learning something new. You just need to show him it is ok to move around and offer behaviours. I would start with some serious prompting. Throw treats on the bed and once they start sniffing it click and give more. Perhaps try to teach a nose touch to a piece of card, try shaping that with some prompting by moving it around to get them to look at it and click and treat. It is easier to move something smaller around to make it more enticing at first.

The best thing you could probably do though is just click and treat for anything other than sitting and staring at you. For looking away or moving. Just ignore the dog till it goes to do something different. Just persevere. It will happen eventually, work little sessions a few times a day. use objects that are small so you can move them or show the dog. There is nothing wrong with prompting to get your dog to offer something.

[Root Beer]

If anyone has any thoughts on how to shape a dog that has spent its life waiting for direction, I would love to hear them.

 

I'm working with a student right now whose dog is at this stage. While I don't shape everything that I train, I do consider it essential for my dogs to know how to offer behaviors. Speedy, Maddie, and Sammie all went through the "I'm going to sit still and stare holes in your head" stage of learning this. It is hard to wait them out at that point and I'll admit that I broke down and gave hints. But eventually I did wait them out enough to let them figure out how to offer (unprompted and by their own choice) and all three have this skill.

 

Anyway, with the client with whom I am working, we tried some targeting and exercises like the one you describe with the mat, but that was asking too much.

 

So, we started to play "click for anything". The goal of this game is to start to teach the dog that offering - even the most minute of behaviors - will earn a click/treat.

 

The dog offered quite a lot of ear flicks, and some "shifting around" in the sit position, and some very quick glances to the sides. The owner really had to watch closely to see the subtle behaviors that the dog was starting to offer, but both of them started to catch on quickly. The game helps the dog learn the idea of offering, and it helps the handler learn to be extremely observant, which is important in shaping

 

I wish you the best with it!

[airbear]

Eventually, I start to click and treat for putting one paw on the mat, then two, then all four, etc. What actually happens is that the dog sits in front of me with his eyes completely focused on my face. I've tried to wait it out, but I have clearly worked too hard on the focus, because both of my dogs will wait FOREVER.

What I learned at the clicker seminar I went to recently is that if the dog stalls out like this, move around a bit so that it increases the chances of him incidentally making contact with the mat. For example, my young dog, Rex, likes to wave. It was the first "trick" that he learned and it's his default behaviour (and it's so frickin' cute that he usually gets attention for it). When I first started shaping a target, I just stood there and Rex sat in front of me, waving. The instructor told me to move around (without giving him any commands) and if he happened to make contact with the target, c/t. I thought "there's no way he's going to associate incidental contact with the target with the c/t" but in about 5 minutes, he was definitely interacting with the target. Oh, and Rex is a trained sheepdog. He has had no experience with shaping until this past Spring. At first, he was very confused but now he knows what the clicker is, and he gets very excited when I bring it out.

 

Hope that helps!

[eclare]

Thanks everyone. I think we had a breakthrough last night. Both dogs seem to be figuring things out. Seamus is a tough one, though, because he's sooooo sensitive and will eventually just give up and lie on the ground if he can't figure out what I want. I think (hope) that once he is more used to shaping he'll figure out how to offer behaviors and get more into it.

 

It's amazing how ill prepared I am for the personality differences between my two dogs. Even though I know that different dogs have different learning styles, it's a total challenge to figure out what works for Seamus after spending the past few years working with a highly driven and easily motivated Daisy. It's funny how they bring such different things to the table. Daisy is so much easier to work with, while Seamus is so much easier to live with.

[Root Beer]

Seamus is a tough one, though, because he's sooooo sensitive and will eventually just give up and lie on the ground if he can't figure out what I want. I think (hope) that once he is more used to shaping he'll figure out how to offer behaviors and get more into it.

 

Dean is like that, too.

 

A very high rate of reinforcement for the tiniest offered behavior helps him a lot.

[muttlycrew]

My girls are like this. One shuts down very quickly if she can't figure something out. It's been a struggle to train her and she wants to participate in training sessions *so bad* but we have to keep them super short (less than 3 mins). My 2nd girl came to me at 6 weeks and she was a breeze to train. She catches onto things very quickly but isn't the best at offering *new* behaviors. She has her favorites and likes to keep offering them, just like Kristi said about her Rex. My newest is just now getting the hang of the obedience/tricks side of training (agility and sheep came first). She liked to stare holes in my head and now she will offer me a few things. Her first trick was wave, and now she offers wave quite a bit until she moves on. I try to resist the cuteness so I don't make the same mistake I did with my other girl (her favorite tricks are being 'shy' and waving while sitting pretty. SO. FRIGGIN. CUTE.)

 

[Ace]

I just recently started to shape everything with the newest addition to my family. I was having a crap load of trouble shaping him to wave. The thing I found most helpful is not to give up! I found that sometimes if I sit on the floor when first shaping it brings out certain behaviors then when I stand or sit in a chair. I also have found that shaping your dog to look away from you also helps to shape certain behaviors. I started with my older border collie, Rush. She loves her toys, so I would set a toy a foot or so in distance and normally she wont pick up her toys if they are that close without a release. The idea is to have her looking at it so when she was released she would go pick it up. All I did was stare at the toy and when she looked at it I would click and treat. Later I started doing this when we were shaping box games, I stared at the box long enough. All you really need is a few glances, and bam they start to get it, especially a dog who has been shaped before. After that we moved to the more complex things, go to your mat, hug the cone. Anything with props is easier to shape I think because you can use the staring thing. I have noticed with a lot of dogs (even if it takes awhile) they will stop paying attention to you if you aren't paying attention to them. At least with my dogs I found these things work, sometimes I cheat though and use my body or I will lure. Pure shaping is really hard on me lol.