Problem with my BC

[josey]

I have had a border collie for 4 years. I learned early on that she had fear agression and had been able to talk with a trainer when I lived in CA. What she did back then was try to bite when I tried to comb her. I was able then to gently hold her nose when she showed her teeth, and she would calm down. So in time I was able to comb her, and then i was trying to get her to roll over so I could brush the other side, and she showed her teeth again, so I talked gently to her and rolled her over anyway. A few weeks ago I brushed and bathed her and when I went to towel dry her I came at her from the front and she jumped up and hit me in the eye with her nose. (I can see now that she didn't trust me with the towel coming at her in that way.) This nose thing has been something recent. At the time when she hit me, I screamed in pain and held my eye and she ran and hid. An hour later I called her and I could tell that she knew she had done wrong. I then put on goggles and brushed her again. The following day she had rolled in manure again, so i got on my googles, washed that area, and then had a towel by my side and held her collar and gently brought the towel to her. She handled it well.

 

The other thing she does is, she loves people, and yet when they lean over to pet her she sometimes hits them in the mouth with her nose, so I began telling people to be careful. It is hard to say when she will do this, and so often I hold her collar to prevent this, that is, if I am close enough.

 

Some people are now telling me that her nose hits are not fear aggression but herding instinct, her telling me or others to move away. Is this true? Seems like fear aggression to me but in another form.

 

Thank you very much.

[ejano]

I know very little about fear aggression, but I do know a bit about dogs misbehaving while they're being groomed (which in my mind, isn't fear aggression - it's just acting up like a kid fussing about getting his hair washed.) I've had to retrain the several rescue dogs I've had to stand quietly to be groomed -- this is what worked for me.....

 

I use a soft rubber brush at first, which barely does anything but make them feel good, hits the itchy spots, without hurting them. Doesn't make a dent in the dead hair, but that's not the purpose. I don't ask them to do anything but sit at first and have their back brushed, then we work our way up from there to the more difficult spots and to stand for grooming. I have thick hair myself and I know how much it hurts to try to pull a narrow teethed comb through it and I have medium to rough coat BCs so I choose my grooming tools with my own "ouches" in mind.. a rake with a wider spaced teeth and one of those oval stripping combs with what looks like saw teeth -- you use it very lightly and it works well... a flea comb to look for ticks but I never use that for grooming. With all three dogs now trained, I now have added the Furminator tool during shedding season.

 

It can take some time, but eventually the dog learns that grooming can feel good and even if you have to work out a tangle or pull some burrs, there's always a pleasant massage at the end with that same soft rubber brush that I started them out with. I put the dog up on a table so I can work more easily so I don't ask the dog to roll over to be brushed. I get them to the point in their training where they will turn around when I ask by saying "other side."

 

As for the jumping up to bop you in the face, I'll be interested myself to hear the comments of others.

 

I've always thought that it was a puppyish behavior done to get the attention of the mother once they reach a certain age....my pups did it and, if I was in front of them, I put my hand out so they hit the flat of my hand with their nose if they jumped up. (sometimes was a bit like playing ping pong with my hand being the paddle .

 

If they were approaching another person to be petted, we stopped, went for the sit and I stepped on the leash, giving them enough slack so that they started to jump up, then were stopped before they could get all the way up. I also warned the person to not bend all the way down so as to not offer their face as an easy target. In both instances, I didn't prevent the action from happening, but they got corrected for the action in a relatively painless, quiet way so they were able to see that the behavior wasn't desirable. They outgrew it at about four to five months old, if I remember correctly.

 

 

 

Liz

[Jedismom]

Jedi does this when he's meeting new people. It's very annoying, but it's not fear aggression or herding instinct. It's like he wants to meet them and this is something he does to determine if they're ok or not. I discourage it whenever I can and ask people not to bend down to pet him when they meet him. If they want to pet him, he has to sit and I usually have my hand on him.

[Sue R]

Welcome! You will find these boards a wonderful resource and I hope you ask, listen, learn, and contribute.

 

Too many people who don't know any better will attribute just about any issue to "herding instinct". Bullarky. Nose bumps are rudeness - they may stem from friendliness and enthusiasm (in the case of making friends) but they are rude behavior and, like any other attention-seeking or in-your-space behavior, need to be dealt with kindly, fairly, and firmly. I don't have time to go into this right now but others will give you very good ideas and training tips to deal with this.

 

As for your particular nose-to-face bump, that was not a friendly bump. I think you've been kind and thoughtful in dealing with your dog's worries. While dogs often seem to do something like that "out of the blue", there are usually clues that you can see, subtle as they may be, that something is making the dog uneasy and something is about to happen. Have you read Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash"? It is very helpful and so are Victoria Stilwell's videos. Many people here heartily endorse "Control Unleashed" as another good training resource.

 

I know that people will give you good advice here, and wish you the very best in dealing with your dog's problems. It sounds like she is very fortunate to have found you and your caring heart.

 

Best wishes!

 

PS - My young dog, Dan, is a nose-bumper when he "just can't control himself" and I have had to work hard with him on this issue. At his size and almost 50#, he's a formidable missle when he launches himself - preparation and being ready to pre-empt this behavior is a necessary part of the training!

[bcnewe2]

I have a nose bumper but only in particualr situations.

Dew is very noise sensitive. Thunderphobia galore, 18 wheeler air brakes are almost as bad a thunder. One little thing has been quite hard to deal with, she is totally afraid of rasberry noise made by peoples mouth. You wouldn't think it'd be a big issue but you'd be suprised how many people make that noise without even realizing they are.

I usually request people try and refrain from making that noise but most of the time it spurs people on to make it more (or that's what it seems like) Whne Dew's noise phobia pops up she usually runs to her hidey hole (under something very small) I just let her go because she self calms that way. But lately she is growing in confidence and doesn't run as much as she did (she's not a runner as in running away, I used to worry that she might but she doesn't)

Now when people make the "fart" noise with their mouth she'll run jump up bump or pop them in the mouth and take off for her hidey hole. She isn't as scared as she was but old habits die hard. I don't allow this new behavior as I think it's her way of telling the people to quit making the noises and think if left to her own it will turn into a bite.

So...I think it's sorta a fear reaction with a bit of aggression attached. It's not nice, she's not being sweet, she's trying to control her enviroment. (definately not "herding")

I don't mind asking people to refrain from the noise but I don't think she should have the abitily to correct humans for what she thinks is wrong.

 

Dew is a total sweety, she doesn't like her nails done or to be groomed but she will tolerate both cause I do it anyway. I atribute her dislike to baths, nails and grooming to the fact that I didnt' do it enough when she was young. Still has to be done but it's not her favorite.

 

STM nose bumps are sorta like nipping, and should be nipped in the butt.

 

I think you were lucky she had enough self control that she didn't bite you when she got you in the eye. I don't go balistic with corrections when they are related to fear but still they get a correction to let them know it's not acceptable.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

When a dog shows it's teeth, it's telling you something. She's telling you she does not like what's happening. From reading your post (and correct me if I'm wrong) you've been dealing with her grooming issues by holding her mouth shut when she shows her teeth. So you've effectively told her that you don't like that but have not dealt with her grooming problem, so instead of showing her teeth, she's resorted to the nose bump (as Sue said, in this case it's not a friendly nose bump) and she is still not truly comfortable with grooming.

 

Liz offered some good advice, but for this dog, I might go a step or two further and do some research on counter conditioning and desensitization and teach her to enjoy being groomed by associating it with something else she truly loves... her favorite food would work well here as play/tug might actually up the adrenaline too much for a calm activity like grooming.

 

I'm kind of wondering why you are rolling her over when you are grooming her? Do you mind explaining?

[Sue R]

When a dog shows it's teeth, it's telling you something. I'm kind of wondering why you are rolling her over when you are grooming her? Do you mind explaining?

I'm glad you addressed this first point, which I neglected to do.

 

As for the second, it sounds like she grooms the way I do, with the dog lying down on its side and then it's an easy rollover to work on the other side. In addition, I do a lot of rear-end grooming with each dog on its back between my legs (as I sit on the floor) and the head facing away, so I can work on the feathers, rear belly, inside the hind legs, and the tail. Not a conventional way of doing it but the way I do it (and that's also how I trim nails, swapping their head end and tail end as needed).

 

When we had our son's family's Sheltie here for a summer, I groomed him standing up. He would not be comfortable doing it this way, which is something I've done with my dogs from early puppyhood on, so that they are quite accustomed to it and relaxed.

[josey]

Thank you all for your advice. I see others have the same problems. It felt like she had just had enough with brushing, bathing, and then the towel coming at her. I did end up with a black eye, and while I screamed at being hit and then said, get out of here, something I have never said before, she understood that I was hurt.

 

I have always had border collie/aussie mixtures, and this time I wanted a purebred, but I had never had a dog that had fear aggression or was afraid of things in general. It has taken a lot of work to get her over things. When we first got her she felt the hair brush on her back and ran and hid. I was shocked. Never knew a dog to be afraid of a brush. Then I tried again and she growled at me. A trainer said to hold her down with your knee. Wrong. She had more fear than ever and growled even more. I gave up for a long time on the brushing and then later on slowly re-introduced it. Another trainer said to hold her collar and her down and make her accept the brushing. I thought not after that knee hold. One said to slap her on the nose, and that just make her fear me, and so she wanted nothing to do with me. Then after talking to border collie rescue I started to get somewhere with her. He said to put her on a leash and make her stay with me. I did and immeditately she got over her fear of me. Never slapped her again, but when she shows me her teeth I hold her mouth gently and tell her it was okay. Haven't had her show her teeth in a long time up until the black eye, if she even showed her teeth. When I had called border collie rescue 3 years ago, it was the thought that I would have to give her up because she could be dangerous, but then I started crying over the thought and just worked with her. That day of the black eye I think I was over confident and wasn't trying to be careful with her but to brush and bathe her as if she were any other dog. I have a feeling when she nosed me she may have had her lips curled to show her teeth, but it was too fast to tell. Could have just been a nose bump. The man at border collie rescue seemed to think I had my hands full, that she was a real problem dog, or so that was my impression.

 

But she has basically been afraid of the world. Didn't like to go in the car until we got another dog that loved the car, but we no longer have him. Still he helped her some.

 

Then she would pull on the leash and try to go back home when on a walk when other dogs barked from behind fences. I have her confidence up alot on that.

 

She is not afraid of thunder, but when she was a pup she wanted to be. ha. I think because my husband likes to go outside on the porch when it thunders and she goes with him that she got over it. And she loves to watch fireworks from our window but not if we take her outside. I also used to have to be outside with her when she was a puppy when it was dark so she could go to the bathroom, but I would have anyway due to coyotes, but she didn't like the dark. She has a dog door and used to run in when critters were outside, but now she barks at them but won't chase the deer out unless i go out with her.

 

BC, that raspberry noise and your dog's reaction is interesting. Mocha likes it when I make barnyard sounds, especially mooing, but she doesn't bump me.

 

I should have got Mocha used to the tub when she was real little. I tried once later on when she was small enough to get into the tub, but she bolted and fell on her back. now she is too big to get into the tub, so I use the hose. Would hate to have her roll in something in the winter when it the hose is frozen.

 

I will get the book, The Other End of the Leash.

 

Thanks for all the welcomes. I was afraid to post because years ago I posted her aggressiveness on another forum and people said that I had to be the type of a person that beat my dog and that I didn't deserve her. I rather thought maybe pet forums were filled with crazies and didn't need the abuse. Plus it really hurts ones feelings when people think you abuse animals, and then it embarrassed me to be in public with a black eye because I felt people would think I had an abusive husband.

 

I was watching a movie the other day, Mist, about border collies. I thought it was going to be a boy and his dog, but it was talking dogs herding sheep. Boring, but not once did a border collie bump a sheep to herd it. Made me wonder if my other friends were right or not.

 

When she bumps people's mouth it does seem like she is excited and not trying to make them move away.

 

She is also a nervous urinater. When she was a puppy the vet told me that she urinated all over. She still does that with male vets. I took her to a female vet and it didn't happen. I was even shocked that Mocha still liked the vet afterwards. I knew this because I was waiting to talk to the vet afterwards, and when she came out Mocha was all excited and whined. But when I tried to teach her a trick, she urinated out of fear. It was as if not knowing what I was trying to teach her scared her. I think that strange because my last dogs knew a lot of tricks, although I am not into teaching tricks like I was when I was a child. Basically she learns as she goes along in life, like sit, wait, stay, stop. She knows hand signals and other things that surprise me, like "you have food in your bowl," and she goes to her bowl. At least I tell myself she learned to give me her paw before I gave up on teaching tricks. And she used to urinate when she met new people, but that hasn't happened in a while.

 

ejano, I did the same thing in getting Mocha to be brushed. She still hates the rear and doesn't like to roll over, except one time when I said it she rolled over on her own.

 

jedi, that is what i do too. have her sit and hold her collar so people can pet her. it was really hard to take her places in public because she was too excited over the people, but i took her to the farmer's market a few weeks ago, and she was wonderful all around. When someone wanted to pet her I held her and warned them. She behaved.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[Sue R]

Okay, now, let's hope you know "the rule" - pictures, please, in the gallery!

 

I recommended "The Other End of the Leash" (and she also has a website, www.theotherendoftheleash.com) because it's an excellent book for learning about how people communicate, how dogs communicate, and how they have little in common in their natural forms of communication! It is a wake-up call for me each and every time I read it because I always tend to default to natural, human communication when I need to communicate in a way that a dog can understand clearly.

[josey]

Hi again,

 

I see since starting this post I have had two other posts to read.

 

I ask her to roll over so I can get the other side. She lies on the floor to be groomed. Getting her to stand up is not easy, not even when bathing her rear end. So if I ask her to get up and lay down again, she always lies on the side I just brushed. She loves to be brushed on her head and back, but hates her rear end being brushed, and so I try to be gentle. That makes sense that she has begun resorting to nose bumps. Never thought of that. Sue I groom the way you do. I think I need to teach her to stand. That ought to be fun. Today when I had to bath her rear end she wanted to sit on it. I pulled her up by making her think we were going to walk, and then I put my hand under her waist to hold her up. It worked. I need to say Stand when I do this. She has never had a full bath as I don't believe in them, so I just wash what gets dirty. I started this because my last dog ended up with yeast infection that I never go rid of, and I had a friend with an Aussie that never washed him, and he smelled good.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

As for the second, it sounds like she grooms the way I do, with the dog lying down on its side and then it's an easy rollover to work on the other side. In addition, I do a lot of rear-end grooming with each dog on its back between my legs (as I sit on the floor) and the head facing away, so I can work on the feathers, rear belly, inside the hind legs, and the tail. Not a conventional way of doing it but the way I do it (and that's also how I trim nails, swapping their head end and tail end as needed).

 

Oh! That's interesting. I'm going to have to try this on Riley.... It would be so much easier on my back if I could do at least one sitting down!

 

I should clarify why I really asked that question...

An interesting discussion has been brought up with some of the people I volunteer with, mostly between my dog program coordinator, our trainer and myself. They were at the CAPPDT conference that was in Calgary just a little while ago. They both sat in on Ali Brown's seminar and she brought this up. She's noticed that with the reactive dogs she works with that they do not tend to roll over or expose their bellies/sleep on their backs very much if at all. Of course, there isn't much science around this, but we've been talking about it. Daisy (reactive) and 3 of my DPC's dogs (all reactive) will not roll over or sleep on their backs. Daisy will for a minute or two at home sleep on her back as will one of the other dogs. When we're in training classes she won't even lay down in a relaxed state. She won't expose her belly willingly, in any way unless she is 100% comfortable with the situation. Same as my DPC's dogs. Riley on the other hand is 100% care free and relaxed all the time. I swear he spends the majority of his time on his back, rolling around and quite frequently sleeps all night like this. Like I said before, this is not very scientific, but it's an interesting discussion none the less. It seems that a confident dog is going to be more at ease doing these sorts of activities whereas a fearful/reactive dog almost needs to be 100% relaxed and calm to do so. In this case, it would seem that the reactive dog does not like being groomed and being rolled over may be causing her stress? Maybe, maybe not, but a thought.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I just read your long post...

 

You should check out this group, if you haven't already... it will likely be a good resource for you... and no one will think you beat your dog! They all have dogs with "issues".

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/

[kristinavb]

I also groom Seamus while he's laying down. He doesn't enjoy it and won't stand still.

 

Nose bopping is common here too. My aunts Bull Mastiff does this (she's another story, no training at all) and Seamus will do it too when excited and someone comes to pet him. To combat this I ask for a down (he's got a solid down) and he won't bop anyone while being petted since he must stay down. I'm sure it's not curing the issue, but it works for us.

[josey]

Thanks Daisy for the website. I also ordered the other end of the leash. Also Daisy, I believe you are correct. I have always had dogs that loved their tummy rubbed, but when she will roll over on her back it is not a complete, Here it is. This makes it easier to understand her, but then how to get her on her other side. So much easier when I had dogs that loved to learn tricks like roll over, etc. Ha.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

If you join that group, go into the files section and there is a document containing counter conditioning and desensitization information. You can teach her to enjoy grooming more than she does now using these methods and you may even get to the point where she's happy to roll over for you. Others on that list have experience regarding feral dogs, mill dogs etc. and they've worked hard at everything including grooming. It's a good place to ask questions.

[josey]

daisy, thanks for that info. i will check it out. when i ask her if she wants to be brushed she comes over and lies on the floor where I brush her. she didn't mind it today, not even her rear end. when i asked her to roll over she got up and laid down on the other side, but i asked her 3 times before she understood what i wanted. it felt as if she didn't want to expose her belly but knew I wanted to brush her other side. as i think about it it was trying to get her to roll over that made her upset recently since she seems to accept brushing now. and of course the towel to dry her must have bothered her or i wouldn't have been hit in the eye by her nose.

[Root Beer]

Of course we all know I'm usually the odd one out, but I love nose bopping! Whether it is done out of giggly excitement (that's usually when Dean does it), or when the dog is in "but Moooom!" mode! I consider it to be form of nonverbal communication from my dogs. It actually tends to mean sometime quite different, depending on the dog that is doing the bopping.

 

I second the recommendation for the shy k9's group. That helped me a lot back when I was first learning about helping a fearful dog.

 

There is a goldmine of information in their files section.

 

With a dog such as you describe, josey, I would take things slow and do quite a lot of desensitization with different aspects of grooming.

[geonni banner]

Sugarfoot is a nose-bopper too, but she just does it when she greeting someone she likes really well. I've taught her to avoid making actual contact, as it hurts. I did it by turning away from her and ignoring her for a few seconds, and by saying "OW!" if she actually made contact. I've never known her to use this behavior as a protest.

 

I also groom my dog standing for the most part, but I do put her on her side on the bed to cut her nails. This accomplishes two things. It makes it easier on my back to cut her nails, (I sit in a chair next to the bed) and she is not even a little interested in getting up on the bed at other times. At least, not when it's made up. She will happily jump up on the bed and snuggle morning and evening when the bed is not made up. She learned very quickly that the made-up bed and the rumpled bed are two entirely different places, and that access to the former is by invitation only, and at her discretion for the latter.

 

When I'm cutting her nails I put her on her side and roll her over to access the "bottom" set of paws. I also ask her to lie down and roll over when I'm about finished with a standing grooming session, to check her private bits and her armpits for foxtails or anything else that might need addressing. It's also to keep her accustomed to being laid on her back so the vet will have an easier time of it if he needs to check out her underside. It's easier for him and it's less stressful for her if she's used to being gently rolled over and turned every which way. We make a game out of it. Once she has remained quietly on her back for whatever inspection/grooming I need to do, she gets a session of "grab-the-paw, grab-the-snoot."

[ejano]

Hi again,

 

I see since starting this post I have had two other posts to read.

 

I ask her to roll over so I can get the other side. She lies on the floor to be groomed. Getting her to stand up is not easy, not even when bathing her rear end. So if I ask her to get up and lay down again, she always lies on the side I just brushed. She loves to be brushed on her head and back, but hates her rear end being brushed, and so I try to be gentle. That makes sense that she has begun resorting to nose bumps. Never thought of that. Sue I groom the way you do. I think I need to teach her to stand. That ought to be fun. Today when I had to bath her rear end she wanted to sit on it. I pulled her up by making her think we were going to walk, and then I put my hand under her waist to hold her up. It worked. I need to say Stand when I do this. She has never had a full bath as I don't believe in them, so I just wash what gets dirty. I started this because my last dog ended up with yeast infection that I never go rid of, and I had a friend with an Aussie that never washed him, and he smelled good.

 

It's a matter of training..lots of treats and very short sessions so that you decide when the session is over before she has a chance to fight you....gradually release the time, or give her a break then bring her back again...

 

Brushing the hind quarters is a personal intrusion of sorts, but I keep it brief then move on to something they like to have scratched, like around their neck and back...everyone loves a good back scratch .

 

I don't mind of the dog sits while being groomed because they really only need to stand to get to the underbelly and hind quarters...You could teach her how to stand at a time apart from the grooming sessions so that she doesn't associate "stand" with Oh no, I'm going to be brushed!

 

Liz

[josey]

It is so interesting reading these posts on how you all handle your dogs. often now when i brush her hindquarters i scratch her head, which she loves. it helps. i like the idea of teaching to stand as at a separate time. never thought of that. i could offer her a treat while doing it too.

[mbc1963]

\She's noticed that with the reactive dogs she works with that they do not tend to roll over or expose their bellies/sleep on their backs very much if at all. Of course, there isn't much science around this, but we've been talking about it. Daisy (reactive) and 3 of my DPC's dogs (all reactive) will not roll over or sleep on their backs.

 

Well... Interesting point. I can add to the list of fear-reactive dog who won't expose their bellies or roll over. Buddy knows the command - I taught it early on - but getting him to roll over was always such a stressor on him that I stopped asking. He will lie on his back for a tummy rub, but only in our house and only if he feels very safe. Out in the world, he simply will not roll onto his back. I definitely think it's a trust and fear issue: Buddy will avoid rude confrontations with other dogs at all cost, but if other dogs are in his face and rude, he will roll them and stare in their eyes while they submit. I suspect that he links the rolling over with submission, and is too afraid to exhibit this manner when there's a real or imagined threat?

 

(Another correlated fact: Buddy has been in several fights, one with a Weimeraner who was clearly kicking his *#&, and I have never seen him come close to giving in. If the other dog submits, Buddy stops fighting, but if the other dog is winning, he keeps on struggling and struggling. He seems to desperately believe that giving up in a fight = death for him. He did live on the streets for 1 - 2 years, and had to fight for food, I think. FWIW... this all seems tied up with refusing to roll over, in his mind.)

 

Mary

[MicheleS.]

It's interesting that the nose bumping seems pretty common. I taught Chase a pretty forceful touch with his nose to my hand, that was for agility purposes. And since he was shy about coming near my face to give a "kiss" like all my others dogs did/do, I taught him to touch my nose with his nose for his version of a kiss. I'm not sure where I come up with these weird ideas

After reading these posts, I'm wondering if I should have even taught him that. My daughter will ask him to give a "kiss" in exchange for her tossing a toy and sometimes he will give a pretty forceful bump to her nose

And after thinking about it, he really seems to love to get in the faces of people he knows and loves to greet and actually bumped someone's glasses off. (Not good since this was an older lady.) Since then, I do have to hold him in a sit by the collar so he doesn't hurt anyone. I do like the nose bump for me but it's probably something he is starting to feel comfortable doing to other people.

 

All of the dogs I've had have to lay on their sides while being brushed and while getting their nails cut. They're not too fond of getting the nails trimmed but they acquiesce. They love getting brushed.

Gypsy and Chase both sleep on their backs alot and roll over for belly rubs. Chase is a fearful boy and even he will lay on his back in obedience class. Guess he feels comfortable there.

[bcnewe2]

Raven will lie on her belly for a scritch but not ever to sleep on her back and she won't offer her belly unless she's feeling very safe.

Mick is a very tight dog. He will lie on his side but not his back. I do see him roll around outside in the dirt or grass on his back but he never sleeps on his back either.

Dew will go belly up anywhere anytime anyplace. When we go somewhere in the car and she gets tried it's her favorite position up against the seat. Always makes me giggle.

 

I see showing bellies as a total trust or a submissive thing. Plus then there's the dogs that just love showing their bellies which is a whole nother matter.

 

I think there are 2 kinds of nose bumps. The one that is an expression of something or the one that is in lieu of a bite. Dew does both. I don't mine the lovie one, it's done when we're both feeling good but it's easy to tell the difference between that one and the one that means she's wanting to nip or control a situation that she's uncomfortable in.

 

BTW I brush the dogs all the time. That and the nail trimmer live on my coffee table. So I brush them in all sorts of postions. Usually on their sides laying on the couch, then I flip them over and do the other side. Works for us.

[ejano]

I see showing bellies as a total trust or a submissive thing. Plus then there's the dogs that just love showing their bellies which is a whole nother matter.

 

I'd agree with both, especially the submissive. Robin definitely was born thinking he was in charge of the entire world....I had to work at getting him to show his belly....not the "alpha roll" dominant stuff but I did want to be able to roll him over for health checks and even as a tiny pup, before he had his eyes open, he strongly resisted being laid on his back. This is one dog you'll never catch sleeping all sprawled out, snoring on his back.

 

So we worked at it a bit at a time...every night we had "doggie massage" time. He'd lay on his side and we'd work from his ears down his back through his legs and his paws and scratch his tummy and say "tummy rub!" and he kept easing over, easing over and now, when I say "tummy rub!", he flops over on his back for a good belly rub but only "in private" -- if Brodie or Ladybug show up, he pops right up. He's always on his dignity, that Robin. .

 

I keep grooming a separate business from this silliness - (bonding, really)....for one thing I need my glasses to trim their nails and as DH is fond of saying....What? Her wear glasses? Nah, she just keeps them around...somewhere......

 

Liz

[bc4pack]

There's 'nose bops' and 'muzzle punches'...

There's 'belly ups' and 'tap outs'...

 

Context is always critical...