Knocking

[Megs]

Hi all,

 

So, my boy is doing super well at agility but we have one small problem! KNOCKING BARS!!!!!!!

 

He is super fast!!!

 

This or he is just lazy in the back? I thought of putting hair bands around his back feet when jumping to try and make him more aware but??????

 

Please give me some suggestions or idea's?

[Pat W.]

Sounds like some ladder, cavaletti and jump chute work is in order

 

Ladder work: place a common wood ladder or make one out of pvc and put it on the ground, with your dog on leash

have him walk through the runds slowly, this will make him lift his feet reward for no ticking of the bars, work both sides

when he gets proficient ask him to trot the ladder, work off leash or you can raise the ladder by placing bricks underneath.

 

Cavaletti level 1 - take 4 -5 pcs 5ft 6in dia pvc and cut lengthwise and place in a circle evenly spaced so that one end is closer to the other so it looks like an astrisk ie the outer edge of the circle is wider than the inner. again on leash start at the edge and walk both directions of the circle reward for no ticking, as he progresses move inward.

 

Jump chute: I cant remember the correct spacing for this but hopefully someone else does

[SecretBC]

Excellent suggestions above. It sounds like he's just jumping flat.

 

If you want to know grid distances, I suggest getting one of Susan Salo's DVD's from Clean Run. She is the jump grid queen. I was able to set one up for my big dog successfully, falling back on my horse jump setting skills, but I failed miserably in setting distances for my small dog and ended up really messing up his confidence. You DON'T want that to happen. I need to buy that DVD....

 

Ultimately you need to work collection skills to get him rounding over the jumps -- taking off closer to the base and landing closer to the base. To really drive this point home, you can "jump him into the wall." Not literally, of course, but having a solid obstacle behind the jump can really back off the dog and make them spring more off their hind ends.

 

Lots of wrap work, very little straight line work for now. Vary your jump heights -- have some higher than you jump in competition and have some lower. Teach the dog to pay attention and jump efficiently.

 

The following works for some dogs and not for others. When your dog blasts through a bar, stop everything and go, "uh-oh!" Then make your dog sit and wait while you reset the bar. The fun stops when a bar falls down. Some dogs learn to be more careful when you do this. Just make sure your dog isn't self-entertaining as you reset the bar, or nothing is learned.

[Carlasl]

I "rented" the Susan Salo "foundations for jumping" from Clean run, you can do Video on Demand, you get it for two weeks I think and can watch it as many times as you want. I watched it and took notes and wrote out all the jumping grids. I think it cost $15....if you decided you want to buy the DVD they give you a credit ($10 I think). But honestly I was able to get everything I need just watching it a couple times and writing a lot of notes down.

 

I am doing the grids with Maya and so far she is showing really good jumping form.

[muttlycrew]

Oh...good to know about renting. I'm not having jump issues (knock on wood) but I really want to watch that DVD.

[Root Beer]

I also recommend Susan Salo's DVD. Her Set Point exercise alone is worth the price of the DVD. That exercise has done fantastic things for every dog I've known who has gotten a chance to try it.

[Mariji]

It depends how fast I think you are talking. If it is like warp speed fast then it will be the speed that causes the dog to not collect itself in time. I know alot of dogs that fast have trouble keeping up bars. But I also don't know many dogs that fast. It is is just fast hard to explain lol then the set point exercises would be perfect. I had to go back and teach my 2 year old how to jump using jump grids as she was a flat jumper, which just means she was jumping low and flat across the bar causing it to fall. Hold your reward out higher maybe instead of throwing it to the ground so they focus a little higher and don't drive straight into the ground.

[wgg]

Hi! This is my first response but I've been lurking here awhile! I do a really good exercise for jumping. You can use a toy or treats, but I prefer treats with this exercise. Stand beside a non-winged jump. Have your dog "hop" over the bar and if no ticking or no knocking they get the cookie. If they even tick the bar, no cookie. So the reward happens when there is no contact with the bar. You just go back and forth, a treat waiting in each hand. This isn't a speed exercise, it is a jump training exercise. My dogs like it because of the treats!

[Megs]

Thanks Guys I think Chaos is just not lifting those back legs and hence why I say "lazy in the back"! He is fast and he tends to get so excited to do the rest of the course or next obstacle that getting over that jump however possible - which is more often than not - is not done very carefully, he knocks

 

Tonight at training I have been stopping at that jump that he knocks and saying "jump carefully" in a happy voice and not shouting or giving any negative vibes, I don't want to loose the speed I just want to make him jump carefully. It seemed a light bulb went on but then I also wonder if it's just because we are slowing down and doing it over? hmmmm.

 

I have been doing loads of cavaletti excercises and pretty much everything everyone mentioned but I think he is just too much in a rush to do the next obstacle that he doesn't care for being careful over jumps and keeping them up!

 

I like what "secertBC" mentioned about "lots of wrap work and very little straight line work for now" I do a hell of alot of straight line work but minimal wrap work or not enough! He is young and we are just starting but I need to know these things now if I want to keep him from getting into a habit of thinking its ok to knock!

 

I live in South Africa, so getting the DVD's are really expensive for me but I like the idea of renting

 

Thanks again, appreciate it!!!

[Megs]

Hi! This is my first response but I've been lurking here awhile! I do a really good exercise for jumping. You can use a toy or treats, but I prefer treats with this exercise. Stand beside a non-winged jump. Have your dog "hop" over the bar and if no ticking or no knocking they get the cookie. If they even tick the bar, no cookie. So the reward happens when there is no contact with the bar. You just go back and forth, a treat waiting in each hand. This isn't a speed exercise, it is a jump training exercise. My dogs like it because of the treats!

 

Well hello and thank you for your post!!! It sounds like a grand idea actually seeing as I clicker train I think that once he gets the idea that touching the bar is not going to get him treats would also greatly help him. Frustration and worry on my part is setting in so i gotta make sure I can work this out!!

 

Thanks for your idea, hope to see you post more

[mobcmom]

I’m not a jumping expert but perhaps it is something else.

 

1) Could it be a takeoff and landing problem? How far away does your dog start the takeoff and are they leaving on the correct foot? If the dog takes off to soon, they might not have enough momentum to carry them over the jump and hit the bar or board. Same thing with the stride. Is it a smooth take off or does the dog take shorter strides going into the jump. They may be losing momentum if this is the case.

2) Does your dog arc when they jump or are they a flat jumper? It a dog arcs its body during the jump it carries they higher over the jump. A flat jumper can hit the bar or board and does not have the height an arced jump can provide. My trainer recommended people sting a piece of elastic, about 2-3 inches above bar/board, across a jump. It provides a little bit of resistance while encouraging the dog to lift its paws(tight tucked jump), and arc the body to avoid the elastic.

 

Good luck.

 

mobcmom

[pammyd]

How often and when does he knock the bar??

It can be a handler thing too, like if he isnt to confident and in mid air thinks you have moved/given a command/whatever so he drops a leg slightly

If there is a mistake have a look at what you are doing as well

[gcv-border]

I think all the suggestions have merit. It is a very complex issue.

 

So far,

1. Teach the dog to jump via jump exercises (Susan Salo DVD, ladders, cavalettis, wrap-work, positive reinforcement for NOT ticking/dropping bars, etc, etc.) I understand that almost all dogs need to be taught to jump correctly.

 

2. Is it something you are doing that causes the dog to adjust in mid-air leading to a dropped bar? That was a good comment, and probably happens more than one realizes, particularly for a beginning handler. I am a beginning handler and it is very common for my instructor to point out that the reason my dog dropped a bar was because I was late, or not clear, or too close, or whatever with my handling cue. Then, when I repeat the sequence, if I get the timing right, usually my dog does it beautifully.

 

I would like to add a third category to the list - injury.

Injury (specifically iliopsoas strain) can cause dropped bars. Personally, I think the first 2 reasons are more likely, but it might be worth checking out an iliopsoas strain, or at least keep it in the back of your mind.

 

I went through this with my dog (~ 15-16 months old at the time) and learned a lot. A couple of things to point out: (1) a dog with a high pain tolerance may not show any other sign of an iliopsoas strain beyond dropped bars. If you can find a rehab vet, he/she would be the best person to check out your dog. I wouldn't necessarily trust a general vet. (My general vet did not diagnose it.) (2) One of the rehab vets I worked with believes that there are many more iliopsoas strains in agility dogs than are diagnosed. She cringes when she hears someone saying that their dog is 'lazy' because it keeps dropping bars. To her, that is a sign to check the dog for an iliopsoas strain.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[gcv-border]

OOPs! Forgot to clarify that an iliopsoas strain is similar to a groin pull in humans. Therefore it can affect movement that involves extension of the abdominal area i.e. jumping extensions. When your dog doesn't want to fully extend their rear legs due to the pain of the iliopsoas strain, dropped bars can be the result.

 

Jovi

 

 

__________________________________________________

 

I think all the suggestions have merit. It is a very complex issue.

 

So far,

1. Teach the dog to jump via jump exercises (Susan Salo DVD, ladders, cavalettis, wrap-work, positive reinforcement for NOT ticking/dropping bars, etc, etc.) I understand that almost all dogs need to be taught to jump correctly.

 

2. Is it something you are doing that causes the dog to adjust in mid-air leading to a dropped bar? That was a good comment, and probably happens more than one realizes, particularly for a beginning handler. I am a beginning handler and it is very common for my instructor to point out that the reason my dog dropped a bar was because I was late, or not clear, or too close, or whatever with my handling cue. Then, when I repeat the sequence, if I get the timing right, usually my dog does it beautifully.

 

I would like to add a third category to the list - injury.

Injury (specifically iliopsoas strain) can cause dropped bars. Personally, I think the first 2 reasons are more likely, but it might be worth checking out an iliopsoas strain, or at least keep it in the back of your mind.

 

I went through this with my dog (~ 15-16 months old at the time) and learned a lot. A couple of things to point out: (1) a dog with a high pain tolerance may not show any other sign of an iliopsoas strain beyond dropped bars. If you can find a rehab vet, he/she would be the best person to check out your dog. I wouldn't necessarily trust a general vet. (My general vet did not diagnose it.) (2) One of the rehab vets I worked with believes that there are many more iliopsoas strains in agility dogs than are diagnosed. She cringes when she hears someone saying that their dog is 'lazy' because it keeps dropping bars. To her, that is a sign to check the dog for an iliopsoas strain.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[Megs]

How often and when does he knock the bar??

It can be a handler thing too, like if he isnt to confident and in mid air thinks you have moved/given a command/whatever so he drops a leg slightly

If there is a mistake have a look at what you are doing as well

 

He knocks more when and if I am behind him - he is a fear aggresive dog and and so yes, his confidence isn't 100% but in the agility ring he is like a little champion but out is another story - we are currently on behaviour training and not competing but hoping one day to get back into the ring.....I think he is too much in a rush.....I am going to post pics now.

[Megs]

Hi guys,

 

I got some pictures taken so you can get a better look. He sometimes jumps beautifully and sometimes knocks everything.

 

But here is some evidence......he is my frog dog.

[Megs]

OOPs! Forgot to clarify that an iliopsoas strain is similar to a groin pull in humans. Therefore it can affect movement that involves extension of the abdominal area i.e. jumping extensions. When your dog doesn't want to fully extend their rear legs due to the pain of the iliopsoas strain, dropped bars can be the result.

 

Jovi

__________________________________________________

 

I think all the suggestions have merit. It is a very complex issue.

 

So far,

1. Teach the dog to jump via jump exercises (Susan Salo DVD, ladders, cavalettis, wrap-work, positive reinforcement for NOT ticking/dropping bars, etc, etc.) I understand that almost all dogs need to be taught to jump correctly.

 

2. Is it something you are doing that causes the dog to adjust in mid-air leading to a dropped bar? That was a good comment, and probably happens more than one realizes, particularly for a beginning handler. I am a beginning handler and it is very common for my instructor to point out that the reason my dog dropped a bar was because I was late, or not clear, or too close, or whatever with my handling cue. Then, when I repeat the sequence, if I get the timing right, usually my dog does it beautifully.

 

I would like to add a third category to the list - injury.

Injury (specifically iliopsoas strain) can cause dropped bars. Personally, I think the first 2 reasons are more likely, but it might be worth checking out an iliopsoas strain, or at least keep it in the back of your mind.

 

I went through this with my dog (~ 15-16 months old at the time) and learned a lot. A couple of things to point out: (1) a dog with a high pain tolerance may not show any other sign of an iliopsoas strain beyond dropped bars. If you can find a rehab vet, he/she would be the best person to check out your dog. I wouldn't necessarily trust a general vet. (My general vet did not diagnose it.) (2) One of the rehab vets I worked with believes that there are many more iliopsoas strains in agility dogs than are diagnosed. She cringes when she hears someone saying that their dog is 'lazy' because it keeps dropping bars. To her, that is a sign to check the dog for an iliopsoas strain.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

 

thanks for your reply!!! it could very well be a handler error, my boy, as most border collies are, is VERY sensitive to any kind of body movement, even the slightest and he will change course so me being aware of body position / landguage is a big thing for me!!! My trainer / s are quite good at telling me when I should be more aware of what or where I am.....

 

Injury is a good thing to mention and one I am considering. See photo of him stretching in the photo. I was worried that it might have something to do with his hips as I saw my new animal behaviourist / Vetrinary nurse on Saturday past who I will be working with over the next few months and she mentioned that he looks a bit "stiff" behind which worried me!! His back leg muscles are well developed, she felt him all over and for "heat" which we found in his back area.....so injury could very well be the answer but I think it's time to take him for X-rays and make sure he has sound hips. I have already gone through surgery at a very young age which added to his fear aggression problems towards people (generally men), he was diagnosed with OCD in his right shoulder - other shoulder X-rayed and is fine - thank god!! But now, hmmm. I reckon I should do it anyway as he will be an agility dog it's only right to X-ray just incase. I just hate going to the vets as it is very traumatic for him and me.

 

I think ultimately the right thing to do is to X-ray and just be sure and then if the knocking persists then check with his pysio and if all clear then obviously I am not doing the right jump excercises.......oh and don't worry, I am all for positive reinforcement / training!

 

Thanks again!!!

[SecretBC]

How high is he required to jump in shows? Those jumps seem excessively high for a dog his size -- Is it even possible for you to jump him any lower? Or I suppose I should ask, do you notice a difference if you jump him lower in practice?

 

Ultimately, the pictures tell that he doesn't have the fundamentals of jumping down. Most dogs can schlep themselves over the average jump without too much problem, but when you are looking at jumps of this size, it is imperative that the dog know how to properly gauge distances and know how to jump with proper form.

 

There are a couple of pictures where he looks lovely, so he's not a completely "lost cause" by any means. You wouldn't happen to have video, would you?

[Megs]

How high is he required to jump in shows? Those jumps seem excessively high for a dog his size -- Is it even possible for you to jump him any lower? Or I suppose I should ask, do you notice a difference if you jump him lower in practice?

 

Ultimately, the pictures tell that he doesn't have the fundamentals of jumping down. Most dogs can schlep themselves over the average jump without too much problem, but when you are looking at jumps of this size, it is imperative that the dog know how to properly gauge distances and know how to jump with proper form.

 

There are a couple of pictures where he looks lovely, so he's not a completely "lost cause" by any means. You wouldn't happen to have video, would you?

 

Hi there, here in South Africa we only have three size's, small, medium and large - he is in the large category and required to jump 65cm. He is about 50 something cm high - must measure him again. I do sometimes train with jumps lower this was just a practice excercise in class and we had to jump large height.

 

I do have a video of my first ever competition and he didn't knock anything - will see if I can post here.....thanks for your comments.

[Megs]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video...;subj=620230108

 

Only video I have is on my facebook page....see if it will work with the above link - this was our first ever show