Sit-stay, Down-stay or Stand-stay at the start line?

[MicheleS.]

Just curious about what stay you do at the start line. I'm asking because I'm having increasing difficulty getting Chase into a sit position. He knows to get where he needs to be when I tell him "line-up", either to my right or left, sometimes I have him come up between my legs to line up, but he is taking forever to get his butt on the ground. He is anticipating his run so it takes him about 5 minutes (exaggerting but that's what it feels like) to actually sit!

I have gone back and clicked the sit to reinforce it but that goes away very quickly if I'm not reinforcing it every single day. I've messed around with leaving him on a stand-stay and also just recently messed around with leaving him in a down. He goes into a down at the start line quick right now but I'm thinking that will go the way of the sit?

Once he is in position, he stays. I can take a very long lead out and he doesn't break his position. So the stay part hasn't been a problem yet. We haven't competed yet.

Just curious what others have found that works for them and what advantages and disadvantages you have noticed from any of them.

Thanks

[Root Beer]

I've been thinking about starting to leave Dean in a down. With him, the issue is more anxiety than anticipation. His sit at the start line is lovely at class, but when he's in a setting where people are watching him at a trial, he likes to stay very close to me.

 

But lately I've been working a lot with him in a down and he seems more comfortable there. I am interested to see if he would be more comfortable if I left him in a down at the start line in a trail situation. I am supposed to trial with him in a couple of weeks, so I might try it out.

 

Of course, that doesn't help you. Maddie doesn't really anticipate the start. I kind of have the opposite problem with her. Once she's running, she's fine, but she can get distracted on the start line. I do have her sit, but I usually start with her to get her head into the run quickly.

 

You might try the down and see how it goes. Maybe do a lot of work with the down in front of a jump, but release to a toy behind him sometimes. I do that with Dean, too, when we train at home. He enjoys that game. He doesn't anticipate going forward because sometimes I release and throw the toy behind him. He never knows which to expect.

[PSmitty]

You might try the down and see how it goes. Maybe do a lot of work with the down in front of a jump, but release to a toy behind him sometimes. I do that with Dean, too, when we train at home. He enjoys that game. He doesn't anticipate going forward because sometimes I release and throw the toy behind him. He never knows which to expect.

 

That sounds like good advice to me. If your dog is offering the down, give it a try. Just be consistent, once you make a decision.

 

For me, I'm very lucky that Alex has a great sit-stay at the start line.

[rushdoggie]

Listen to your dog...the start line is not a good place to start an argument. If he is really resisting the sit, maybe hes too amped up, maybe he can't see you well after you leave, theres likely a reason.

 

To be fair the reason might be that he doesn't understand sit in that context and you need more training, but either way you are about to head off on a team run, now is the time to listen and work together.

 

I leave my dogs each in the position that makes sense to them...some easily drop down into that down, some don't care and some prefer a stand because they are starting to amp up and they had too hard of a time holding a position.

 

I had a dog who was most solid in a stand: I simply walked her up to the start line and said Wait and walked away. She hated to be fussed over, hated sitting there...standing she had amazing rocket starts and we all were happy.

[Carlasl]

I am fairly positive that Maya will have a down stay at the start line. Down is sort of her default and she hardly ever breaks a down stay, while her sit stay is not as solid. I also read an article one time that suggested many dogs have a quicker take off in the down position.

[SecretBC]

So long as the dog waits for release, I don't really care what position they are in --- I would always choose to default to the dog's preference because it's really not worth arguing about.

 

For what it's worth, I find that with dogs who tend to break the start, having them perform a down *usually* helps. It takes more effort to break a down-stay than a sit. Stand stays are good for dogs who are more difficult to motivate, but for them I would just use a running start. Along those lines, a "sling-shot start" is a good option for dogs who are not yet confident enough for you to leave on the start line -- it lets you run with them, but gives you a bit of extra room to get ahead into position.

 

Kaiser sits on the start or I run with him, depending on the course. Luke's default is the sit, but I put him in a down when he is insanely amped up and I need him to hold the stay -- like on a tunnelers course. In that class I usually get him so hyped that his brain is ready to explode, so I put him in a down as far away from the first tunnel as I can and then walk backwards, because if I break eye contact with him at that point he's off!

 

Kaiser is another one I don't break eye contact with, but that's because his start lines at trials are just starting to stick. He didn't break a single one at the last trial, and that's a first.

 

In Secret's training, I'm leaving her in a sit. She's not amped up enough yet to worry about the down.

 

FWIW, most dogs that I see do the stand-stay are creepers. Which is fine, but you'd better have plenty of room to set them up well away from the jump if you want to get a good lead-out.

 

Also FWIW, I think lead-outs are overused.

[Root Beer]

One thing that concerns me about using a down at the start line is that I wonder if it is really good for the dog to burst from a down into a run? I mean from the perspective of impact on the dog's joints.

 

Granted, I doubt there would be a problem with a young and fit dog, but is this something the dog might feel later in life if it is done a lot?

[Blackdawgs]

For my anxious dog, a standing, almost running start is best. I just remove the leash and go, so she never has time to stress. If I must lead-out, it is from a sit.

[MicheleS.]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and suggestions, very much appreciated

 

I don't feel position is worth arguing over either and I really do want him in the position he's most comfortable. My only requirement of him is that he stays put until I release him and right now, he's a good boy about that. I do think he fully understands sit in that context, he's just recently started this slow sit thing. almost like he's become smart enough to want to position himself better to give himself an advantage. I do think I should listen to what he's telling me. He is really, really amped up! I don't know if that's a good thing or not? We're talking about a dog whose entire body vibrates waiting for his turn. I don't do any amping up, he doesn't need it and I don't need it! In fact, I try to keep him calm and mellow before his run.

Good point about the creeping on a stand-stay. I have a feeling that if I started leaving him in a stand, he might start creeping. I was also thinking along the lines of what Rootbeer mentioned, about bursting into a run/jump from a down being tough on the body, etc. He seems to be telling me he wants to stand but I know his default position is a down.

He has no problems with getting into a beautiful square and quick sit when we do obedience training. In fact, I've never had a dog with such a beautiful square sit.

 

I like Rootbeer's idea of periodically throwing a toy behind him so he doesn't know whether he's going forward or going to get the toy behind him. I'll add that to my training.

 

SecretBC, funny you should mention that lead-outs are overused. Just this week in class, I've discovered one reason I may not be able to take a long lead-out with him. He wants to catch up to me and go forward so much that he jumped long and flat and knocked the bar of the first jump (it was a 2 jump lead-out). Wasn't I just saying I didn't think he had a jumping problem

I thought I was being smart trying to pre-position myself and give myself an advantage, but he's not letting me. I'm guessing there is a happy medium somewhere in there.

 

I still need to think about whether to do a down or stand, as I said, my only concern with the down stay was bursting out of it and how tough that might be on the body.

 

Thanks again!

[SecretBC]

One thing that concerns me about using a down at the start line is that I wonder if it is really good for the dog to burst from a down into a run? I mean from the perspective of impact on the dog's joints.

 

Granted, I doubt there would be a problem with a young and fit dog, but is this something the dog might feel later in life if it is done a lot?

 

 

I think the only way a down at the start is difficult on a dog is if you put them directly in front of the first jump -- so that they must spring from the down position to a jump that is their height or taller. So many people set their dog up right in front of the first obstacle. I like to set mine well back so that they can get in a few strides before the first jump.

 

I don't feel that my dogs find it any more difficult on their bodies to start from a down -- including my big dog, who is the one with all the "issues" and sees a chiropractor regularly.

[MrSnappy]

I have to set Tweed up 8 inches farther back then where I want him, as no matter where I put him in a sit, he scoots forward 8 inches on his bum. ;-) Once in class I set him up right in front of the first obstacle to see what he'd do, and skooched forward right onto the contact in a sit. Bugger.

 

Piper would like to stay in a stand position but if she's standing she won't stay. If she is sitting, she will stay - but she doesn't want to sit. We're working on it. I prefer them in a stand.

 

RDM

[CLW1]

I used to have trouble getting my dog to sit at the start and I'd end up fussing with him which just stressed him out. I got some great advice to come up with some sort of a startline "routine" and consistently use it, prefereably something that didn't involve me physically manipulating him. So, I came up with come between my leg and sit on my right side which we've now been using for years. I taught it away from agility at first and then added it and use it in class, practice, and at a trials. It's a "trick" he likes to do - actually all of my dogs do it now.

 

Interestingly enough, the person that suggested it to me told me a few years later (she'd forgotten that it was her suggestion) that technically what I was doing was a blind cross under xyz handling system and blah blah blah I shouldn't be doing it. LOL

 

I think a stand, down, or sit all work as long as you're consistent with it and people will tell you all sorts of drawbacks and advantages to each. I'd do what works for me and my dog.

[MaryP]

I use a down, though I've been told that it's not the preferable position to use because of the shifting of the dog's weight to it's front end when it is released (i.e., the dog is not in good jumping position). But, it's the only position that I can use, if I have any chance of keeping my dog at the start line. Charlie is a natural "downer," which is why I think it works for him. In a trial, Charlie is horrible about keeping his start line stay (no problems in class, though). So, if I have to lead out very far, I put him in a down as far back from the start as I can because he will hop forward (in the down), then move to a sit, then stand, then start to creep forward. If I'm lucky, he'll still be far enough back that he won't be right on top of the first jump by the time I give my release command. Turd.

 

In class, we don't have any problems with start line stays. Trials, though, are a whole different story.

[muttlycrew]

I will also say do what is natural for the dog depending on the situation. Punk prefers that I run with her in class as she isn't as hyped and running with her gives her the thrill of 'racing'. In a trial, I leave her in a sit-stay and walk out to where I need to be (which usually isn't terribly far, maybe 1 or 2 obstacles ahead) as she's fast in those settings. I've never had issues with her breaking. I did teach her a "line up" which means go between my legs and sit..but this takes her F.O.R.E.V.E.R to do (or it seems) in trials so I usually do the 'side' command instead.

 

For Stella, I use "line up" and she goes in between my legs into a down-stay. She sucks at a sit-stay (creeps, lays down, scoots, goes before released, etc). The biggest reinforcer for her is throwing a toy back to her and releasing her to go get it. It's helped immensely. Punk isn't toy motivated, so I would throw one of those plastic tooth-brush holders (filled with treats) back to her. She looooooves that.

[SS Cressa]

Both of mine have an automatic down at the start line. Troy it seem worried a little more in a sit on the start line. In a down he is more relax and calm.

 

In class I am able to get Cressa to sit o the start line. AT a trial she puts herself in automatic down. You can tell her to sit and she will for oh .002 seconds before sinking into a down. She will already be ready have her feet dug in ready for take off. While I am leading out. And BTW they still won't have any issue creeping in a down at the start.

 

Both of mine were taught a quick down(sink back onto theri haunches) so don't know if the other down would have an impact on their joints. or effect how they get out of their down.

 

I don't think there would be any xtra stress on the joints from being in a down position vs a sit position.

[MicheleS.]

Your input has definitely got me thinking, and of course always learning. It's good to know I'm not the only one with start line issues.

I don't want to stress Chasey-boy out (oh heavens, can't have that ) by physically making sure he does a sit at the start line. He used to do a nice "line-up" like some of you mentioned where he would come up in between my legs and automatically sit.

I definitely need to come up with something that works for him, for both of us. Right now I'm thinking maybe a line-up between the legs again with a stand. And then do the toy throw behind him game to keep him guessing.

Thanks again!

[Frogs & Dogs]

Recently, Kit was breaking her sit/stays in class. The instructor suggested that it had to do with tension on the leash as I removed it. She suggested keeping a very loose leash as I put Kit into the sit/stay and removed the leash. I was shocked that it worked! The tension on the leash was translating to tension in her, and all that anticipation was just too much for her.

[SecretBC]

It's good to know I'm not the only one with start line issues.

 

hahahaha! Do you ever go to trials and watch the Novice & Open classes? Good heavens, you are certainly not the only person with start line issues.

 

I only get irritated when someone spends five minutes trying to get their dog to do the behavior the person has chosen for the start line. I'm happy to see that more judges are starting to E for that sort of delay.

 

The majority of dogs that have issues with the start line ARE perfect at practice. My friend has a Golden Retriever that you could set a bomb off next to in class and she wouldn't break, but you can't get two steps away from her at a trial without her taking off. There are mixed reviews on how to handle that. One of my long time friends is very hardcore about removing his dogs any time they break the start. Luke was just awful for a period of time, but I chose to work through it and keep running to not give up the Q. That doesn't work with all dogs, but thankfully it worked with Luke and now he nearly never breaks. Kaiser has also improved immensely as he's become more comfortable with trialing.

 

I think a lot of Novice dogs would be better off if their handlers would just run with them more. My biggest peeve? When you lead out and don't move until your dog reaches you. Kind of negates the purpose of a leadout.

[MicheleS.]

She suggested keeping a very loose leash as I put Kit into the sit/stay and removed the leash. I was shocked that it worked! The tension on the leash was translating to tension in her, and all that anticipation was just too much for her.

 

That's interesting. I'll file that away for future use if needed. LOL!

 

And as for standing there and not moving when I take a lead-out. psssshhh! I have no idea, but I probably did that the other day when Chase knocked the first bar!

One of my instructors accuses me of "spectating" Yes, I guess I'm guilty of that because I just can't believe how fast and cool he looks when he runs but that's probably only part of the problem. I think I'm stunned and shocked sometimes and I just stand there not knowing what to do.

It's taken a long time to get used to his speed and his quick response to every single move and command I give.

I really thought agility was a piece of cake because I ran an aussie that wasn't as fast and she covered every wrong move I made. She was my first agility dog.

Chase leaves me no room for any errors. Bless him, he tries so hard for me. We are slowly getting it together and working as a team. He's understanding me better and I'm understanding him better.

It's going to be one heck of a ride with him! It has been so far!

[gcv-border]

OH Boy. This really describes me and my dog. (Novices, both of us.) I like the term 'spectating'. I recently had a private lesson with an out-of-town agility instructor (who was in town for a workshop), and she also noted how I just stood there watching him run towards me after I led out. I thought he looked sooo pretty - just like those cool dogs on TV that are agility champions.

 

So now I have been working on keeping my feet moving, but then the next problem pops up --- there are times I need to decelerate, and even stop, to indicate to my dog the path I want him to follow. Just too much for my brain (accelerate, decelerate, stop) - but if I do it right, Torque responds perfectly.

 

Regarding start-line stays: Torque also will stand from a sit or creep forward at a start line stay when at a trial. (He is much better at lessons.) I find that if I keep eye contact and hold my hand up to make him stay when I lead out, he doesn't push as much. Yes, I would love to be one of those handlers that set their dogs and then blithely walk away, but at this stage, he is too excited. I am working on it and hope he will improve as he matures, but since he can be controlled if I pay attention, I am satisfied with that at the moment.

 

Jovi

 

 

One of my instructors accuses me of "spectating" Yes, I guess I'm guilty of that because I just can't believe how fast and cool he looks when he runs but that's probably only part of the problem. I think I'm stunned and shocked sometimes and I just stand there not knowing what to do.

It's taken a long time to get used to his speed and his quick response to every single move and command I give.

I really thought agility was a piece of cake because I ran an aussie that wasn't as fast and she covered every wrong move I made. She was my first agility dog.

Chase leaves me no room for any errors. Bless him, he tries so hard for me. We are slowly getting it together and working as a team. He's understanding me better and I'm understanding him better.

It's going to be one heck of a ride with him! It has been so far!

[Root Beer]

I think a lot of Novice dogs would be better off if their handlers would just run with them more. My biggest peeve? When you lead out and don't move until your dog reaches you. Kind of negates the purpose of a leadout.

 

I love starting off with my dog and running "into" the course together. Maddie tends to do better when I do that, as well. Every now and then I have to lead out with her, but I prefer not to if I can help it. I sometimes do lead outs in class, for my own learning purposes, but in competition I'd rather us run to the first obstacle together. Since Maddie is a velcro dog, I never have issues with her getting too far ahead of me.

 

I've never thought about that before! I've definitely done that!! And it has backfired too!! :D

[MrSnappy]

I couldn't run with my dog if I wanted to, and I run really fast. But she's always faster. I lead out so I can show her what path we're about to take as I'm trying to handle a few obstacles ahead. However, she's still a baby dog and if I lead out and start moving too soon, she races to keep up with me and loses her brain. It's just part of the learning process. With Tweed, I can lead way out AND start moving as that dog can read a course as though he reviewed the course maps in advance. But he's got 8 years under his belt, and Piper doesn't.

 

I think too many people try too hard to run with their dog instead of staying ahead of them which is why they blow sequences, and their dogs slow down since they don't know how to read a line unless they're being babysat through it. I have fast dogs and I want lateral distance at speed, and dogs who understand how to read a line and take it without waiting for me to catch up - because I never would!

 

RDM

[MicheleS.]

she's still a baby dog and if I lead out and start moving too soon, she races to keep up with me and loses her brain. It's just part of the learning process.

 

I think too many people try too hard to run with their dog instead of staying ahead of them which is why they blow sequences, and their dogs slow down since they don't know how to read a line unless they're being babysat through it. I have fast dogs and I want lateral distance at speed, and dogs who understand how to read a line and take it without waiting for me to catch up - because I never would!

 

RDM

 

This pretty much explains how me and Chase are together

We've been working so hard and I think he's finally maturing enough to understand. That coupled with me understanding that I need to keep moving and plan smarter in trying to stay out in front of him.

It's been about 2 years of training and I think it's finally coming together for us. 2 years !!

[muttlycrew]

I have only had one issue at the trial with my girl....the table. She, like someone else mentioned, has the type of stay in class where a bomb could go off and she won't budge. This is the same for my start line stays regardless of where we are. Unfortunately, she didn't get the memo about the table in class vs table at trials. When we were in Novice, I said "screw it" to the Q's. I'd rather teach my dog from day 1 that it is unacceptable to leave the table before I release even though I'm leading out (and yes, in novice/open you rarely need a lead out from the table, but in excellent sometimes you do). I'd rather proof this NOW when the Q's really don't matter then later on down the road when the Q's count.

 

I can now say we have awesome lead outs/stays. In our last trial (3 weeks ago) Punk was in a sit/stay on the table and as I was walking away, a bee landed on me. I was jumping up and down, swatting the air, doing all sorts of crazy things. At the end of the run the judge came over and commented on how nice Punk's stay was. Poor Punk was so shocked that when I released her, her face was priceless. It was one of those... :D "Yer doin' it wrong" looks. C'mon, you know the look. :D

[Mariji]

I've found with a sit stay I have to put her quite a fair way back for her to gather her stride to make it over the first jump. I never use a down stay in competition as it takes too long for her to get up and throws her off balance. So it is generally just a stand stay, I ask her to line up on my side and don't have to ask her to stay I can just walk away. If she sits that's fine with me she can either sit or stand, I just find that if she is standing she is more balanced. It also depends on whether your stay is solid as it is much easier to creep forward with a stand stay. I know my girls won't move their feet but that is something the learn at the initial teaching of the behaviour. My puppy I use a down stay or stand stay but she isn't competing yet. I have a ritual with my puppy if I want her to stand stay, is when she is in position instead of asking her to lie down I just tug lightly on her scruff and she knows that means to not move. I taught her a stay when in down position but not so much when standing but she seems to have cottoned on that when I tug her scruff it means to wait until the mama says go! I just don't really use sits in every day life, to me a down is much more solid. At competitions in Australia though majority of people use sit stays.

 

I sometimes wish I was fast enough to run with my dogs but they are pocket rockets and that is a far and distant dream!