Harness Recommendation??

[Shetlander]

Although I am not as patient and skilled at positive only training as Kristine, actually kicking a dog certainly passes way beyond my own personal limits for acceptable dog training techniques. While at times I will nudge dogs with my foot (push, as I might with my hand) to move them aside, the only time I have ever swung my foot back and propelled it forward with any force at a dog was when two Malamutes were attacking my first Lhasa. But that certainly wasn't training. I was taking extreme (and risky, given the situation) measures to save my dog.

[ejano]

OK then We don't have them for our dogs and the only time I do see them is at work with clients who use them with their dogs. It is the Easy Walker that can be replaced by using a regular harness and attaching a lead to the front. I've seen it work just as effectively.

 

The way you've used the Easy Walk is much much different than the way i've seen practically all our clients use them.

 

Well, it worked for us....but then we always tend to do things a little differently, "the red dog" and me .

 

Liz

[ejano]

turn the dog backward when he got ahead of me

 

Forgive me for the misunderstanding....The EasyWalker doesn't turn the dog "backward" --It stops them from pulling because they don't like the sensation of it tightening around their chest. In that sense, it isn't much different from a choke or pinch collar, it just looks "kinder."

 

I used it differently because to that point, my only frame of reference in teaching anything to lead was in working with horses and I thought I saw a slight advantage in the fact that it does turn a dog slightly one way or the other when they pull against it. I didn't have a "good" arm that could withstand any pulling so I had to get creative. I put it on him it so he "reined" to the left -- toward me, so I could catch his attention when the breast buckle tightened and he swung slightly around. He'd raise those gold eyebrows in surprise, "Oh, you're back there?" and I'd say, "Yes! Come on back!" (communicating through the clicker) and he'd come back, and off we'd go again.

 

Robin does back up into heel position, but that's because of another game we played, where I'd ask him to get into heel position before I'd kick the ball for him to retrieve. As a result, if he gets ahead of me when we're walking, sometimes he turns around and comes back and sometimes he backs up until he's in the right place but he knows where heel is and that's all that counts.

[Maralynn]

Forgive me for the misunderstanding....The EasyWalker doesn't turn the dog "backward" --It stops them from pulling because they don't like the sensation of it tightening around their chest. In that sense, it isn't much different from a choke or pinch collar, it just looks "kinder."

 

Hmm, in my experience it did turn the dog back. Anyways, it was pretty useless with my dogs as a managment tool - they were pretty impervious to it. I can see it how it could work well with some dogs, but mine had to be walking pretty well on the leash anyway before it would work for them.

[Root Beer]

Forgive me for the misunderstanding....The EasyWalker doesn't turn the dog "backward" --It stops them from pulling because they don't like the sensation of it tightening around their chest. In that sense, it isn't much different from a choke or pinch collar, it just looks "kinder."

 

Actually, if it is tightening that much, it is too tight. It should be adjusted so that when it is "tight", it is snug against the dog's body, but does not "pinch" the dog's body or make the dog uncomfortable in any way.

 

When fitted correctly, the harness will cause the dog to turn back toward the handler when he or she runs out of leash because that is the only way to move and keep going. The dog learns that in order to keep moving forward with the handler's momentum, he or she needs to leave some slack. Result - loose leash walking.

 

One of the drawbacks of the Easy Walk is that it can be tricky to get it adjusted correctly. If left too loose, it will not be effective and apparently it can slip off altogether. If too tight, it could tighten too much, as you describe.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont think anyone is reccomending actually booting(hard kick) a dog in the rear as a training technique lol I cant imagine actually being out to HURT the dog, just enough as a correction to say "hey, smarten up". though apperntly everyone is imagining people taking a hard swing at the poor dog lol to me kicking hard would be a "boot" and a "nudge" is just touching the dog with your foot. someone taking a swing at the dogs didnt even cross my mind when I first read "kick".

 

Forgive me for the misunderstanding....The EasyWalker doesn't turn the dog "backward" --It stops them from pulling because they don't like the sensation of it tightening around their chest. In that sense, it isn't much different from a choke or pinch collar, it just looks "kinder."

 

I was under the impression that the easy walker was supposed to flip the dog to face you when they pulled... but I have never used one so I have no idea.

[ejano]

Actually, if it is tightening that much, it is too tight. It should be adjusted so that when it is "tight", it is snug against the dog's body, but does not "pinch" the dog's body or make the dog uncomfortable in any way.

 

When fitted correctly, the harness will cause the dog to turn back toward the handler when he or she runs out of leash because that is the only way to move and keep going. The dog learns that in order to keep moving forward with the handler's momentum, he or she needs to leave some slack. Result - loose leash walking.

 

One of the drawbacks of the Easy Walk is that it can be tricky to get it adjusted correctly. If left too loose, it will not be effective and apparently it can slip off altogether. If too tight, it could tighten too much, as you describe.

 

 

You are right -- I had it mixed up with the way a hackamore works on a horse (ETA - a hackamore can be perceived to be kinder because there's nothing in the horse's mouth but you can really clamp down hard on the horse with it).. don't know what I was thinking....except I was remembering the big blood bay mare I had and wondering how she had Robin would have looked together...she fought the bit when we bought her because she'd been abused with it jumping and she was way to big to have an argument with, but she rode well with a hackamore using a nice and light touch --- and I'm reading way too many ENG 101 papers tonight - six more to go!

 

Best,

Liz

 

 

ETA -- I don't remember Robin ever reversing backwards, mostly left turns toward me and I'd wave something yummy at him to bring him back into position. He never reversed backwards, but then as you say, they're difficult to fit. I gave it up when he grew into the next size. He was bigger but his chest wasn't and he walked right out of it. By then he was doing pretty well on lead and I'd moved on to other tricks to reinforce.

[Root Beer]

I was under the impression that the easy walker was supposed to flip the dog to face you when they pulled... but I have never used one so I have no idea.

 

Imagine if you were holding a rope in your hands and your two hands were together directly in front of you together holding the rope in place. And someone is walking along behind you are the same pace, holding the rope. Now the other person slows down a bit and you keep walking at the same pace. When you get to the end of the rope, what happens if you keep moving forward?

 

It wouldn't flip you around so much as it would cause you to turn in toward that person if you were to keep moving at the faster pace.

 

So, you have a choice. Keep moving faster and end up turning all the way around toward the other person. Or, become mindful of the person holding the other end of the rope, slow down, and find the pace where enough slack is kept in the rope so you can keep moving forward.

 

It's a lot like that.

[Shetlander]

I dont think anyone is reccomending actually booting(hard kick) a dog in the rear as a training technique lol I cant imagine actually being out to HURT the dog, just enough as a correction to say "hey, smarten up". though apperntly everyone is imagining people taking a hard swing at the poor dog lol to me kicking hard would be a "boot" and a "nudge" is just touching the dog with your foot. someone taking a swing at the dogs didnt even cross my mind when I first read "kick".

 

I't's hard to know exactly what "Well then, why don't you kick her in the ass?" means. The word, kick, has various connotations, many of them negative and for good reason. Just how much force would a "boot" be? For the hard pulling dogs I've met when assisting in obedience classes and the couple I've owned, the kick would need to hurt to get their attention. It would need to hurt a lot to make enough of an impression that one such correction cured the problem. A whole lot. I guess I'm confused how a kick/boot is supposed to work.

[Sue R]

I't's hard to know exactly what "Well then, why don't you kick her in the ass?" means. The word, kick, has various connotations, many of them negative and for good reason. Just how much force would a "boot" be? For the hard pulling dogs I've met when assisting in obedience classes and the couple I've owned, the kick would need to hurt to get their attention. It would need to hurt a lot to make enough of an impression that one such correction cured the problem. A whole lot. I guess I'm confused how a kick/boot is supposed to work.

Maybe it's that I grew up in a much less politically-correct era or neighborhood or something, but folks often used expressions like "I'm gonna kill that kid!" or "Do I have to break your arm?" or "What (somebody) needs is a good, quick kick in the behind!" - but no one meant to say that they were serious about killing, breaking, or kicking. What they meant was they were very angry, needed to get someone's attention, or felt someone needed a wake-up call, respectively.

 

Maybe I need to modify some of the phrases I grew up with that meant something much more benign than a literal interpretation would imply. That is why I felt Donald was not advocating literally "kicking a dog in the butt" and why I don't consider nudging a dog with my foot any more aggressive/inhumane than a reasonable leash pop or tug.

[Shetlander]

Maybe I need to modify some of the phrases I grew up with that meant something much more benign than a literal interpretation would imply. That is why I felt Donald was not advocating literally "kicking a dog in the butt" and why I don't consider nudging a dog with my foot any more aggressive/inhumane than a reasonable leash pop or tug.

 

I'm not sure what Donald was saying. And yes I also grew up with those kind of sayings. I often tell my dogs "I will hurt you" but really I will not. In a discussion that was turning to training issues, the reference to kicking is unclear. And for those of us who have known hard pullers who couldn't care less about leash pops or even hard yanks, my question is what would a nudge, boot or kick accomplish if it wasn't painful?

[MaggieDog]

My reaction was related to the same things Shetlander mentioned - on the 'net it very hard to tell inflection and I was concerned that others might interpret the comment literally (and not entirely sure that the comment was meant in the same beat as "I'll kill you" type comments). I think the "humaneness" of a technique or tool has a lot to do with the individual animal and situation.

[Maralynn]

I think the "humaneness" of a technique or tool has a lot to do with the individual animal and situation.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with that!!!

[Sue R]

My reaction was related to the same things Shetlander mentioned - on the 'net it very hard to tell inflection and I was concerned that others might interpret the comment literally (and not entirely sure that the comment was meant in the same beat as "I'll kill you" type comments). I think the "humaneness" of a technique or tool has a lot to do with the individual animal and situation.

I think you make a very good point here - something that would be quite crushing and totally unnecessary for my Celt or Megan, might be of a level that barely made an impact on my Dan.

 

A correction needs to fit the dog, the behavior, and the situation.

[NorthfieldNick]

Hmm, in my experience it did turn the dog back. Anyways, it was pretty useless with my dogs as a managment tool - they were pretty impervious to it. I can see it how it could work well with some dogs, but mine had to be walking pretty well on the leash anyway before it would work for them.

 

 

I must be lucky- the EasyWalk has worked wonders for Hoot. I did have to fuss with leashes until I found one with a snap light enough that it wasn't constantly pulling on the harness. The EW does indeed turn Hoot around, but for him, that seems to be the "correction" that works best. He was/is a car chaser, and would tune me out when on the road. The turn back seemed to remind him that I was still there. I've had the EW for two months or so. Yesterday, I had forgotten the harness & went for a walk with Hoot on-leash on a flat collar. No pulling. The EW helped me train him to walk on a loose lead, now it works with a collar. I'm sure some of it is maturity, but the harness helped.

 

I've re-trained too many horses who were started with "crutches" and "band-aid" fixes to ever rely on a quick-fix for a permanent solution.

[ejano]

I've re-trained too many horses who were started with "crutches" and "band-aid" fixes to ever rely on a quick-fix for a permanent solution.

 

Exactly -- if you use it actively, paying attention when the dog turns toward you and help them understand the correct heel position as you would with any other heeling training then the EasyWalker becomes a training aid, not a crutch. And it does save the dog's neck and a great deal of pulling on your own shoulder.

[BCBaxter]

We tried one of these types of harnesses for our first Border Collie (pet). It did stop him from pulling when he was wearing the harness; it never stopped him from pulling when he wasn't wearing the harness. The lesson we taught him was respect the harness; the harness didn't teach him to respect us. He had the personality type of give him an inch and he'll take all he could.

 

Mark

 

Mark, I had this exact same experience. I even took the dog to a professional trainer to see if he could get him to walk properly on a lead, and he saw the same issue.He respected his limitations on the Gentle Leader, but the minute he put him on a regular lead, he pulled like a frieght train on steroids! Despite everything he tried to get him to give up the behavior, the dog was determined to pull on lead.