Ok, so what would *you* do?

[Sue R]

One thing I would be extremely careful about is that you are not a vet behaviorist and I don't know what your insurance covers - if you were to work with this dog and he were to bite someone else (in or outside the family, who cares whose fault it was), would you have any liability? I wouldn't like to see your profession and your future in jeopardy because someone's dog (for whatever reason, their lack of any training or boundaries, medical, physical, or "wiring" problems) that you were "working with" or had "advised about" did damage and you were sued.

[juliepoudrier]

Personally:

 

My biggest red flag here is:

They called you for help.... but then called you the next day and asked you to come get the dog.

Sweet Ceana,

Just a clarification: They didn't ask Anna to come get the dog.They were afraid to put the dog in the car and take it to Anna for evaluation, so they asked Anna to come see (not come get) the dog at their house.

 

J.

[sea4th]

I'm sorry it escalated to the point where they now want to get rid of him, but from what you've described, it was inevitable. Hopefully they're still somewhat open minded enough to talk about it and if they are, what I'd first let them know is that it's their "free spirit" attitude that has led to their call for help, that their dog's behavior can be changed if they change their way of looking at and living with this dog, that it would take some serious commitment on their part and it would be a lifelong commitment. Changes don't happen overnight.

 

And then tell them the alternative -- that because of Buddy's bite history, he'd be pretty much unadoptable. Unadoptable means pretty much means "put down". Then maybe they'd wonder if someone else might be out there who'd be willing to work with the wonderful dog like Buddy. That's when you tell the the stats of rescue and euthanasia. Rescues are filled to the brim with nice dogs who are not a risk or a liability and that euthanasia and owner-surrendered dogs to shelters are usually for behavior issues.

 

Bottom line --- either they commit to the dog or they've pretty much signed his death warrant. It's blunt, but it's reality and too often reality is glossed over.

 

I've taken in dogs and worked with them for issues like these. Some border collies, one GSD and these are not bad dogs. They are dogs who have not been given parameters in life. They need to learn that they can relax and have someone else in charge, but some are more difficult to bring to that conclusion. Only one, Sam, a bc mix, have I ever had to euthanize for behavior issues and that's because he just wasn't wired right. The rest I worked with had gone back to their homes, and live quite successfully - to my knowledge. One is with me now and has her chin on my lap. Only a certain type of person would I consider letting her go to. "Free spirit" did not work with her either.

 

So the dog has a chance, but it needs to come from it's owners --- unless someone happens on this opportunity to work with a dog with issues --- as if there weren't enough of those out there. I've been that person in the past because I actually like working with dogs like this, but no, I don't need another one right now. They need to learn and if they choose not to, it goes beyond the wounds inflicted on these owners by the monster they've created. It means the dog's life.

[sea4th]

Sweet Ceana,

Just a clarification: They didn't ask Anna to come get the dog.They were afraid to put the dog in the car and take it to Anna for evaluation, so they asked Anna to come see (not come get) the dog at their house.

 

J.

 

I was replying while Julie posted this, so that part's a relief, but still, it's good not to sugar coat consequences. Responsibility needs to be placed where it belongs, in this case, squarely on their laps.

[Root Beer]

And it may or may not have to do with some deep-seated problem; it could just as easily be a dog who's learned he can be in control.

 

At the same time, it could be a mental issue of some sort. I see it as far more dangerous (due to the biting factor) to presume that the dog is doing this to be in control. So, that would not be my starting point when approaching the situation.

 

I guess I've seen far too many dogs who were presumed to be trying to "take control" who were actually highly stressed, fear aggressive, or just plain confused. So, that the dog might be trying to take control is never my starting point when approaching a dog like this.

 

I just bring this up because Anna wanted to get different viewpoints. I know this is a different one.

[MaryP]

It sounds like Buddy has a few screws loose. Has he had these issues the entire time that they've had him, or are these new behaviors that they hadn't seen until recently? If he didn't have problems before with being touched or leashed, etc., then I think it's probably not simply that the owners are rather clueless, but that the dog's brain is just not wired quite right. Of course, the owners' lackadaisical attitude toward training and handling hasn't helped. But, as someone else said (I think it was Georgia), just because a dog is raised in an environment with little structure or rules, it shouldn't turn him aggressive towards his own people.

 

I would probably be willing to go see the dog and get a read on him and the situation for myself. But, if the dog is truly as the owners have portrayed him, I would refer them to a vet behaviorist, if they are committed to trying to turn the situation around. Otherwise, I don't think there's much hope for this dog, since he now has a bite history.

[juliepoudrier]

At the same time, it could be a mental issue of some sort. I see it as far more dangerous (due to the biting factor) to presume that the dog is doing this to be in control. So, that would not be my starting point when approaching the situation.

Kristine,

I know you want to present a different viewpoint. Can you see that I was doing the same? I didn't dismiss the idea that the dog could have a mental problem; I just wanted to provide *another point of view* (sound familiar?). Given Anna's description and knowing my own experiences with a dog with a screw loose, I can say that there are plenty of indications that the dog has taken control, but I wasn't endorsing one belief or the other. I've lived with a fear aggressive border collie for 10 years. I know he has a screw (or a few) loose. But that doesn't mean I automatically assume *every* dog with behavior problems must have a screw loose. Did you notice that I agreed with you about the vet behaviorist? I know it's fun to play devil's advocate and *always* take the other side (even when there is no apparent side, since several people, me included, have noted that the dog could have a screw loose), but could we please let that go for once?

 

J.

[G. Festerling]

There are few things I would not even go look at. But I like to trouble shoot. Personal issue of mine.

I rescued a dog that had severe issues. She was a biter. Sharp, fear aggressive plus started training in protection. Go figure!

Few things are what they seem at first look and certainly not over the phone or email.

The big issue are the owners.

However, I am inclined to think that should you take on this dog, you may get stuck with him.

Seems like the owners have lost all trust and may not be able or willing to work through things.

But to be fair, they deserve the same chance at education and possible help as the dog.

 

Edited to add: A dog that comes with these warning already, in my mind, is at times less dangerous as you have already got an idea of there being an issue and you should already be prepared. Not closed minded but alert.

[shadowmarie]

Looking over all the good replies here, I would agree with the following sentiments:

1. You'll have to meet the dog and people in their own environment to get a good handle on what's really going on.

2. The problem probably stems from a combination of the two factors: bad temperament in the dog plus lack of dog-savvy by the owners.

The degree to which temperament is responsible will probably determine whether or not to call in a behaviorist. I suspect one will be needed, just given the description by the owners of the severity of the attacks. The evaluation by the behaviorist and the degree to which the owners can commit to a behavior modification program will determine whether or not the dog lives.

Looking back on my own naivete when confronted with Shadow's dog-dog aggression issues, I'm hopeful that the owners can help turn things around.

I'm anxious to see what you decide to do!

[eclare]

And it may or may not have to do with some deep-seated problem; it could just as easily be a dog who's learned he can be in control.

 

It's hard to say without actually observing the behavior, but this was my initial assumption as well. Maybe I just watch too much Victoria Stillwell, but the first thing that I thought of was the couple with the husky that was constantly beating up on the wife.

[Lenajo]

I wouldn't go over as a trainer/pro of any kind unless you've got good insurance. You can be held liable for the results of your advice, however casually given.

 

No reputable rescue is taking a multi-bite history dog. So the only option is euthanize or the dog is fixed in the home. If you want to fix my recommendation is a trainer who specializes in aggression. Those with behavioral training would be best, but I would be open to anyone with methods and references I liked.

 

Imo the only vet needed at this point is a regular one to examine the dog for physical issues. Then once the trainer has had a look it can be determined if a specialist vet is needed.

 

Jumping straight to vet beh. is money foolish and only looks at one area. Many vet behaviorist I've met are *lousy* trainers, and want to solve everything within their own skillset (drugs). You don't fix problem kids with just a medicine - you need a teacher as well. There is a time and place for the drugs as part of a complete evaluation and progressive steps.

 

And you need someone to help the parents as well. Good luck with that.

 

(and fwiw....Anna, be careful. There are people who would bait a women trainer through something like this to get them to their home to harm them. Something about this whole scenario has the hair up on the back of my neck.)

[ejano]

(and fwiw....Anna, be careful. There are people who would bait a women trainer through something like this to get them to their home to harm them. Something about this whole scenario has the hair up on the back of my neck.)

 

There was something in the original post about the guy protesting way too much that he'd never once hit the dog....every now and again it's a good thing to pay attention to that internal warning system.

 

Liz

[Root Beer]

Kristine,

I know you want to present a different viewpoint. Can you see that I was doing the same? I didn't dismiss the idea that the dog could have a mental problem; I just wanted to provide *another point of view* (sound familiar?).

 

Of course.

 

But that doesn't mean I automatically assume *every* dog with behavior problems must have a screw loose. Did you notice that I agreed with you about the vet behaviorist? I know it's fun to play devil's advocate and *always* take the other side (even when there is no apparent side, since several people, me included, have noted that the dog could have a screw loose), but could we please let that go for once?

 

Aside from the devil's advocate part, we are in agreement. I didn't think you meant that at all. My last post was more of a general one than a response on the topic itself than to you personally.

 

So, consider it let go.

[Smalahundur]

But to be fair, they deserve the same chance at education and possible help as the dog.

 

I respectfully disagree; They are the humans, they took a concious decision to get a dog. They should have educated themselves beforehand. They apparently failed miserably at raising this dog. I know the type and as has been remarked before they more often than not deem the current dog defective and proceed to cheerfully screw up the next. I actually knew someone (neighbour in city I grew up) who did this to seven (!) dogs....

[G. Festerling]

Agreed!

However, now they have the dog and there is a huge issue for this animal. One way or the other.

And frankly, I have sure made some stupid decisions in my lifetime and learned to live with them and learned from them with the help of some kind and very patient folks. Difference possibly being, I was willing to learn. If these folks (or your neighbor) are or would be...how will you ever know if you don't give them the time of day to even evaluate?

 

And it is not the people that will suffer, but the dog that may have had the great misfortune to end up with some silly humans that should maybe never even own a hamster. Who knows!

 

Having said this, I may be a bit to trusting at times and would have never thought to think about the safety issue to the poster....for sure there is no way I would be going over there alone. I think Lenajo has a good point!

[MaryP]

I respectfully disagree; They are the humans, they took a concious decision to get a dog. They should have educated themselves beforehand.

 

You can't educate yourself, if you don't realize that you're not educated. I know/meet plenty of rather clueless/misinformed/[fill in the blank] dog owners who dearly love their dogs but have no clue that many of the dog's problem behaviors are because of their (the owner's) lack of training skills, or their inability to see a dog as a dog and not as a furry child.

 

I'm not the same dog owner/trainer, etc., that I was, say 20 years ago. I had no clue, though, that I was clueless back then.

[Maralynn]

And it may or may not have to do with some deep-seated problem; it could just as easily be a dog who's learned he can be in control.

 

J.

 

That was exactly my though when I read the first post. I get the feeling from reading the description that they may have always yielded to the dog so he took advantage of it. It's a real shame because if they had just ignored the behavior (as in we've got to do it anyway whether you like it or not) in the beginning instead of yielding to it, it's quite possible that they wouldn't have had any issues with him.

 

Personally, I wouldn't touch this dog with a 10 ft pole. The owners are afraid of it - even if I *could* help it probably wouldn't do much after they took him back home. . I'd offer advice over the phone and point them in the direction of resources to help both them and their dog. They have to change their mentality or nothing will work.

[SecretBC]

I wouldn't hesitate to offer help -- AFTER the dog is neutered. For real, the dog has been running loose his entire life, intact? How many unwanted litters do you think he's helped to produce in this time?

 

I think the dog deserves a chance. It is not his fault, after all, that he was adopted by morons. I do not know, however, that he has a chance a good life if he remains in that home. There will always be a bite history and thus, fear, if he remains there.

 

For his best shot at a decent quality of life, he should probably be re-homed & rehabilitated. I would adopt a very stringent NILF policy with this dog, probably to the extent of the Ruff Love program. He has no respect for humans and has been allowed to run like a wild child his whole life. That needs to stop. Immediately.

 

Regardless, these owners do need to be educated -- Or else they will simply run out and do it all over again.

[Sue R]

You can't educate yourself, if you don't realize that you're not educated. I know/meet plenty of rather clueless/misinformed/[fill in the blank] dog owners who dearly love their dogs but have no clue that many of the dog's problem behaviors are because of their (the owner's) lack of training skills, or their inability to see a dog as a dog and not as a furry child.

 

I'm not the same dog owner/trainer, etc., that I was, say 20 years ago. I had no clue, though, that I was clueless back then.

Amen!

 

My only disagreement with this is that viewing a dog as a furry child poses problems, but only if you would raise a child without discipline and structure along with the love. Sometimes, I think I have done best in my life when I have treated/trained my children and dogs in very similar ways - love, discipline, structure, being a leader...

[MaryP]

My only disagreement with this is that viewing a dog as a furry child poses problems, but only if you would raise a child without discipline and structure along with the love. Sometimes, I think I have done best in my life when I have treated/trained my children and dogs in very similar ways - love, discipline, structure, being a leader...

 

I agree that love, discipline, structure, and being the leader is important both for raising kids and raising dogs. I'm thinking more along the lines of people who project too many human feelings on their dogs and expect them to act like children. For instance, I'm dealing with a some folks right now who just refuse to crate their dogs when they're not home because they feel so bad for the dog having to be in a "cage." In one instance, they are having a hell of a time house-breaking the dog and in the other instance, the dog is often being very distructive when left home alone and uncrated.

 

I'm also thinking about the people who coddle their dogs like they would children. Oftentimes, coddling a dog can do a lot more damange than good (e.g., in the case of fear) because dogs are not children and don't think the same way.

 

Full disclosure here: I don't have children, but my fiance and I always get a chuckle when we visit friends or family with young kids. We are always saying, "Wow, they're just like dogs." My suggestions to crate the kids when they are being unruly don't usually go over too well, though.

[JohnLloydJones]

We are always saying, "Wow, they're just like dogs." My suggestions to crate the kids when they are being unruly don't usually go over too well, though.

We have some neighbors, whose sweet little girls are so lacking in basic manners that when they visit, I would certainly prefer to crate them, rather than our dogs. To avoid unpleasantness, however, it is the dogs who end up in the crates; for their own protection. Even so, I need to keep a constant eye on them to ensure that nothing gets poked through the wires of the crates.

[stockdogranch]

This is really turning into a great discussion! Ok, some more info...the dog is loose on their property, but NEVER "loose" (as in, out there fathering litters, fortunately). Their property is fully fenced with 6 foot chain link. They have two horses in a largish pen (like an arena, actually), and when (at some point in the past) the dog started to harass them, they put up yet more fencing so he could not mess with the horses. When I first spoke to the guy on the phone, and the plan was to bring the dog to my pasture, he told me the dog could never be let loose (guy loves his dog, doesn't want to lose it, and knows he has no recall).

 

The evening when they told me the dog "attacked" the wife, she was doing her usual routine--putting the leash on him when it was time for hubby to come home. She leashes the dog, they go to the gate to let dad in, once dad and his truck are behind the fence, dog gets let loose to play with dad--lots of ball throwing. For the first time, that evening the dog didn't want the leash put on.

 

The dog also has a run (a nice big one), where wife puts him when she leaves the house (just in case the meter reader comes by or whatever). Apparently the dog gladly goes in when wife asks him to; once in, he gets a treat. Dog also has a crate in the garage, into which I am told he will go. The dog spends most of his time loose on the property or in the house with the people when they are home. The dog apparently settles down in the house and naps.

 

The people have grandchildren, who used to spend lots of time throwing the ball for the dog. It is just recently that the people are afraid to have the dog out of his run when grandchildren are there--no indications of anything bad happening yet, but they want to be sure.

 

Dog used to enjoy grooming, but recently has gotten nasty about it--mostly when the brush gets to a matt (fairly rough-coated). Brushing down his back seems to be no problem, but feathers on legs, tail, etc. cause him to turn around and try to bite. Dog has never much cared for his feet being messed with.

 

My feeling is that the emphasis on "never having hit the dog" is an indication that this is the way the guy grew up with as far as dealing with a dog--hitting was what you did. I think he's trying a different method with this dog, and just couldn't find the happy medium.

A

[Sue R]

I agree that love, discipline, structure, and being the leader is important both for raising kids and raising dogs. I'm thinking more along the lines of people who project too many human feelings on their dogs and expect them to act like children. For instance, I'm dealing with a some folks right now who just refuse to crate their dogs when they're not home because they feel so bad for the dog having to be in a "cage." In one instance, they are having a hell of a time house-breaking the dog and in the other instance, the dog is often being very distructive when left home alone and uncrated.

 

I'm also thinking about the people who coddle their dogs like they would children. Oftentimes, coddling a dog can do a lot more damange than good (e.g., in the case of fear) because dogs are not children and don't think the same way.

 

Full disclosure here: I don't have children, but my fiance and I always get a chuckle when we visit friends or family with young kids. We are always saying, "Wow, they're just like dogs." My suggestions to crate the kids when they are being unruly don't usually go over too well, though.

Understood! We totally offended some people years ago when we alluded to similarities we felt were good for raising both dogs and children. Although they are not the same, there are some principles that remain pertinent to the raising of both.

[eclare]

This is really turning into a great discussion! Ok, some more info...the dog is loose on their property, but NEVER "loose" (as in, out there fathering litters, fortunately). Their property is fully fenced with 6 foot chain link. They have two horses in a largish pen (like an arena, actually), and when (at some point in the past) the dog started to harass them, they put up yet more fencing so he could not mess with the horses. When I first spoke to the guy on the phone, and the plan was to bring the dog to my pasture, he told me the dog could never be let loose (guy loves his dog, doesn't want to lose it, and knows he has no recall).

 

The evening when they told me the dog "attacked" the wife, she was doing her usual routine--putting the leash on him when it was time for hubby to come home. She leashes the dog, they go to the gate to let dad in, once dad and his truck are behind the fence, dog gets let loose to play with dad--lots of ball throwing. For the first time, that evening the dog didn't want the leash put on.

 

The dog also has a run (a nice big one), where wife puts him when she leaves the house (just in case the meter reader comes by or whatever). Apparently the dog gladly goes in when wife asks him to; once in, he gets a treat. Dog also has a crate in the garage, into which I am told he will go. The dog spends most of his time loose on the property or in the house with the people when they are home. The dog apparently settles down in the house and naps.

 

The people have grandchildren, who used to spend lots of time throwing the ball for the dog. It is just recently that the people are afraid to have the dog out of his run when grandchildren are there--no indications of anything bad happening yet, but they want to be sure.

 

Dog used to enjoy grooming, but recently has gotten nasty about it--mostly when the brush gets to a matt (fairly rough-coated). Brushing down his back seems to be no problem, but feathers on legs, tail, etc. cause him to turn around and try to bite. Dog has never much cared for his feet being messed with.

 

My feeling is that the emphasis on "never having hit the dog" is an indication that this is the way the guy grew up with as far as dealing with a dog--hitting was what you did. I think he's trying a different method with this dog, and just couldn't find the happy medium.

A

 

Interesting. If it's a sudden and dramatic behavior change it sounds like a trip to the vet is probably in order to rule out any potential medical problems.

[juliepoudrier]

Anna,

With the added information it sounds like *something* has changed with the dog's attitude, and recently. A lot of things happen around 2 years old, including sexual maturity, first signs of thunderphobia, first seizures for a dog with ideopathic epilepsy, and so on. So it still could be a leadership issue or the dog testing his limits and finding out he can have his way if he uses his teeth. But since it seems to have come on suddenly, I think I would get a vet workup to rule out physical issues and then proceed from there. FWIW, my dog I've labeled as fear aggressive used to let me do lots of things to him (including trimming nails and combing out mats, though I've always had the vet use a muzzle and whenever I had him shaved he was also muzzled--those are situations where I knew he would bite, so better safe than sorry). It seems that since he bit me pretty badly that one time (my fault) he's gotten the idea that he doesn't have to submit to other stuff (like grooming). I wonder if this dog isn't in a similar mental state? That is, he's managed to scare them (probably not intentionally) and now reacts to their fear by being even more aggressive.

 

J.