aggressive fearfull puppy

[mudthirsty]

So I took my BC, Brodie, to the vet today to get spayed. We've always had problems at the vet, as she gets very aggressive, and is always trying to bite the vet. And she barks like crazy. Today, the vet put a muzzle on her, and asked me if I was sure that I wanted to keep my dog. I said 'ofcourse'. What kind of question is that. She's great at home, and always good at listening. Its just in the vet, shes very agressive. So, they told me that I must seek a behavioural specialist. And to get her in some good obedience classes. I just wanted some feedback, on what I can do to get her not to be so fearfull. I really dont want on aggressive dog. Id really like to see her happy to see other people. I also find she barks alot at other men, especially.

 

Thanks,

 

Shane

[Lunar]

Well I think a training class and behavioralist might be a good idea, but I think your vet to say such things is a bit presumptive. Most dogs get very distrubed at the vet in some way or another - Zeeke has to be muzzled as well, for the vet's safety. But any other time he's fine. So I found that odd.

 

If you do a search on the forum you're sure to find lots of articles about aggression and how to manage it and help him her get over it. If it's fear aggression you're probably going to have to do a lot of desensitizing - which will involve slowly increasing the stimuli (ie, getting closer to the things she's scared of) and reinforcing positive behavior with treats and praise... also encouranging her to look to you instead of focus on the upsetting things. Like I said, you'll probably find a lot of info in other threads.

[Lunar]

Also - how old is the dog?

[mudthirsty]

Sorry, forgot to mention she's 5 1/2 months old.

[Sue R]

This is a big issue and I am not really qualified to help much but...do you only take Brodie to the vet for appointments? If so, probably every time Brodie has gone to the vet office, she has been examined and given a shot (and now she's there for some hours or overnight, and surgery).

 

If this is the case, you have inadvertently set Brodie up to view the vet's office and the vet as the place and the person that causes anxiety and hurts her, and her reaction is not that unusual for a dog that might be predisposed to fear aggression.

 

My Celt is a bit fear aggressive, but I have deliberately done a number of things over the three years I've had him, to reduce his anxiety and increase his confidence.

 

We go to the vet's any time we are in the neighborhood and able, just to go in, step on the scale and check weight, get a biscuit, and socialize with whoever is there. We've been doing that since he was a pup, making sure to take him in when it was nothing but a "social call" and a time for upbeat talk, treats, and petting. My dogs pull me into the vet's, not out!

 

We also have taken puppy class, and some obedience and agility classes. These classes have not only taught me a great deal about how to train and handle my dog but, perhaps more importantly, have given the dogs the opportunity to socialize with other dogs and people.

 

The classes have also enabled my dogs to increase their self-confidence (which is important for an "anxious" dog like Celt). The dogs and I have been able to learn behaviors that can help reduce stress (for me and them) in new, unusual, or worrisome situations.

 

In addition, I am always on the lookout for places I can take the dogs that will provide positive experiences and the chance to meet new people and situations in a non-threatening manner. Some businesses that allow dogs have been wonderful places for this, as is a local mall that allows well-behaved dogs.

 

I take treats so that I can ask people to treat my dogs (they begin to have the positive outlook that people are nice, treat-dispensing entities). I also have no problem if people ask to pet the dogs, and no problem when I feel I need to say, "No, please don't pet this dog. He's a little shy." Actually, for Celt, if folks ignore him and pet and talk to Megan, he will eventually come on over and seek his share of the attention. Sometimes, all it takes is "ignoring" the anxious animal long enough that he/she can realize there is no threat and that he/she is missing out on some treats and petting.

 

If I am correct, Brodie is still quite young. Young dogs do go through several "fear" stages as they grow, and that could contribute to this problem, as well. I think your vet had a great idea that you should take Brodie to some good classes - even though you may know how to train Brodie in basic obedience, the classes provide so much more than just that in terms of socialization with other people and dogs.

 

One thing you must remember with a fearful dog is to not encourage the fear - don't go, "Oh, poor Brodie, it's okay..." and cuddle, etc., or pull her into a situation about which she is fearful. Be "matter of fact" about it, and expect good behavior (which you have taught at home or in class).

 

Also, don't allow folks to "tower" over your dog to pet and handle her. Let them crouch down or sit on a chair, which makes them much less threatening.

 

Do not insist that your dog be touched or petted by someone about whom they are anxious. Give Brodie the chance to observe the person and approach the person when she's ready. A lot of harm can be done by "pushing" a dog into contact in a situation that they are uncomfortable with. She may also feed off your own anxiety, so you need to make sure you are not transmitting worries to her.

 

If your vet will agree to this, take Brodie in whenever you are able, just to get treats (take really good ones - not just dry old biscuits but bits of cheese or hot dog or something else she finds irresistible) and petting (if she's comfy with that), and take her home. If the vet can't ever do this, let the receptionist or vet tech do it, if they are willing. If they can't just do it yourself or bring a friend along to play the part.

 

If Brodie won't look at the treats when she's "worried", then try play with a favorite toy as a reward for being where she rather not be. Don't let her use the toy elsewhere or as a common plaything - make it be something very desirable and only for special circumstances. Let her learn that the vet office is a "good" place and not just a place where she gets examined and stuck with a needle.

 

You can also help with vet visits by "gentling" Brodie. Kneel on the floor, and place her between your knees, holding one hand on her chest, with her back against your chest. Hold her gently but firmly, and don't let her squirm away. When she is relaxed with this, you can use your other hand to gently examine her face, ears, legs, paws, mouth, teeth, eyes, etc. You can move her head from side to side and otherwise manipulate her, as well as feel her ribs, joints, etc.

 

The next step, when she is comfortable with you doing these things, is to find somebody else who will do this for you, so that Brodie can become comfortable with other folks doing this. A dog that has been properly "gentled" may not "like" the vet handling him/her, but should not be frightened and overreactive about it.

 

What you are doing is teaching her to be comfortable with things that the vet might need to do in an examination. Remember that, right now, the only time she sees the vet is when she's going to be handled in a way that concerns her (and that she's not familiar with or that she is only familiar with you doing) and probably jabbed with a needle. No wonder she's so concerned about the vet!

 

One last thing I think might help - if the vet is concerned about Brodie biting and feels a need for a muzzle, do Brodie a favor and get her used to that at home. That way, it will be less traumatic for her to wear one at the vet office. If you are able to improve her behavior sufficiently, hopefully the vet will find the muzzle unnecessary.

 

I am sure that much more qualified people will chime in with better advice - these techniques have worked for me. You have some things to overcome with Brodie but she's young, you're concerned, and I am sure you two can work on improving the situation significantly.

 

Best wishes!

[MaggieDog]

Sue's advice is GREAT! I was just about to suggest the same things.

 

One note - with fearful dogs, sometimes you have to be the one feeding treats, not strangers if she won't approach. This is fine - if you only allow her to get treats from strangers despite extreme fear you could end up with a dog that is still concerned about people but will approach for food, setting you up for a bite if the person does something unexpected. You want her to be calm on approach first.

 

HTH

[Sue R]

Erin is absolutely correct, and I should have been more careful with what I said.

 

One such dog that I had the chance to interact with at a class, was a Border Collie with great fear aggression. She had to be worked in class completely away from the other dogs and people.

 

I went over towards her area and stopped when she noticed me. I looked the other way, stayed quiet a little while, and then began to toss treats in her direction, but never looking at her.

 

She would creep to retrieve the treat and, as time went on, became more relaxed and anticipated the goodies. I moved just a bit closer and sat down (she was on lead and I was well outside her "radius"). I continued to toss the occasional treat and spoke quietly with her handler.

 

I never did go over and touch or talk to her directly. When the rest of the students had gone, her handler brought her out of her "private area". I was sitting on a bench, and her handler came over and sat a few feet from me, letting the dog stay where she wanted on her leash on the side away from me.

 

We sat and talked a little while, I tossed an occasional treat, and then "the magic happened". I felt a nose touch me, just a little tiny touch. Without looking down at her, I opened my hand and let her take a treat, and then another, etc.

 

That neat little dog, with all her issues, had been able to determine that I wasn't interested in her (some dogs get real worried when they figure you are "interested" in them), wasn't a threat, was a source of good things, and was no longer scary (after all, her handler, whom she trusted, sat by me), and therefore she felt comfortable in coming over into "my space".

 

Sometimes, that's what an anxious dog needs - people that don't invade his/her comfort zone but allow them the freedom and time to develop enough confidence, trust, or interest to come into the person's zone.

 

I think it's Laurie that pointed out that working with some dogs often takes little baby steps, and that's a good thing to remember when working with a fearful pup or dog. If they get reactive, it may mean you are moving too fast and you have to slow down and work at a pace that they can be comfortable with. Otherwise, you may contribute to the escalation of their fears.

[Olivia]

I wanted to give emphasis to the idea of happy vet visits. When I was a vet tech we had a very aggressive and fearful cattle dog puppy that came to the clinic. This puppy began trying to do serious damage at about 3.5 months of age. The owner started serious behavior modification at that time and would call to find out if it would be a good time (when the lobby was empty and we weren't busy) to bring Pip in for socialization. She would come in, sit in the waiting room and the techs would take turns going out to sit in a chair and talk about the weather, etc while dropping and eventually giving treats to Pip.

 

While she doen't love the clinic she can now deal with it though we do muzzle her for our own safety. She is much better.

 

I would also second getting her used to a muzzle but if you think it may be something she may always have to wear there I would say look into getting a greyhound kennel muzzle. She can pant, drink, etc but just not bite. It would be easier to get her used to it at home and let her wear it to the clinic at appt times so she is not being muzzled by a strange, smelling-of-other-dogs, piece of cloth.

 

Olivia

[Kat's Dogs]

The advise that Sue gave is really good - read it carefully and fully.

 

I don't know much about your vet but the place that we go encourages you to bring your for those "happy visits" and you just let the dog play with toys (they have a basket of them for the dogs) and people pet your dog and stuff.

 

I am pretty sure that your vet would be OK with it - and happy that you are taking the aggression issue and dealing with it.

 

Like she said "young dogs go through fear stages". You pup is right in that age range. One dog I know got scared of a blue fire hydrant. If you brought him near it - he would scream and squeal as though you were killing him!! Poor guy - but after some training and just being calm around it, he was healed.

 

Well, rather then repeat what has already been said - I agree with Sue's advise.

 

Good luck to you both!

[J&D]

mudthirsty,

i think you've gotten some great advice here. you might even want to start with just sitting with your dog in the car outside the vet's & feeding some treats.

i would recommend the shydogs yahoogroup. some great advice there about fear-aggressive dogs.

[BustopherJones]

You have received much good advice from others, and I will not try to improve on their suggestions. Personally, however, I would have to wonder if your vet might be part of the problem. Our vet also has a "happy place" for dogs; further, she treats them with such kindness and compassion that we have never had a dog that was afraid of a vet visit, and in fact over the years most have actually been happy to go and see their "friends". We only had one incident in the many years we have been with this vet where a dog actually nipped her. Midnight (Shadow's older sister) underwent surgery for cancer. In checking the incision, the vet found an abcess that had to be addressed immediately; she did not have time to fully anesthetize her, and Midnight nipped her when she opened the wound. Midnight stayed at the vet for several more days, and every time the vet came to see her, she would submit and lick her hand as if to say, "I'm sorry, I know you were only trying to help me." Midnight still looks forward to visits to the vet. Shadow reacts as if she is being reunited with long-lost family, and joyfully ensures that she visits and "kisses" everyone in the office.

[Kat's Dogs]

That's a good point.

 

Our vet to is so nice to dogs and really understands them - and Dazzle isn't very scared of the vet. Before we found our current vet though, we had to take in one of the dogs for an emergency and just went to the closest place. The vet (I am sure this isn't true but for lack of better words) didn't seem to love dogs all that much - like he wasn't enjoying his job. That could be a warning sign (it was to us) to find a different vet.

 

Having your vet ask you if you want to keep you dog (while they are giving the dog a shot or something and the dog is being agressive) might mean that you need to talk to you vet about how to behave around your dog. I know it isn't easy to confront your vet in that way but like mentioned above, it could solve the problem - or at least help.

[Sue R]

I guess I'm real spoiled but, for many years, and in several different locations, my pets and I have been blessed with wonderful and caring vets and their staff.

 

I should have considered your vet as a factor in this whole issue, as we have certainly seen folks post about situations where vets or staff have not been the caring and knowledgeable animal health care professionals we assume.

 

However, I do think that you've received many good ideas that will go a long way in helping you raise Brodie, and help you both deal with many situations that you and she may encounter throughout your lives together.

[mosstheboss2000]

I also agree with seeking a trainer or behaviourist in your area to help you work with this pup ASAP. At 5 1/2 months this to me is a indication of temperment , as a good owner you need to recognize the dogs issues or weakness* and work to improve upon them now. Doing rescue I can tell you that many people just figure the dog will out grow them or that it is just at the vets and some men ect. and will never esculate from there and all will be well ... OR try to fix them without the help of someone who has worked with this type of issue and breed before. Improve upon it NOW before it becomes a learned and reinforced behaviour and you do have a major problem.

I am not sure what she is like with being handled but that may be a place to start...reinforcing handling, holding, brushing, collar holds, feet ect.. BCs are known for not always tolerating this type of stuff , you need to teach her this!!

Always positive I too would search for a nice cage muzzle, bites reinforce themselves...

If you would like a will try to find someone in your area to refer.Just curious if you can let me know where this pup came from you can email me privately if you would like.. Thanks

Cindy

Border Collie Rescue Ontario

[SoloRiver]

With a dog this young, with these responses, I would absolutely seek the help of a certified veterinary behaviorist. There is a list here:

 

http://www.dacvb.org/Typo3/DACVBHome/index.php?id=34&type=1

 

Or your vet may be able to refer you to one.

 

I have a fear aggressive Border Collie who I adopted at 16 months of age. I do believe that dogs like Solo are mostly born and only partly made, but I also believe that had I gotten him as a puppy I would have been able to fix a lot more than I have. That said, he has made excellent progress and is the dog of my heart, so don't be discouraged. I wouldn't trade Solo for ten normal dogs. He has grown with me, taught me, learned with me, and hey, he got me a job.

 

Good luck.

[Catu]

I studied veterinary medicine for three years, couldn't keep studying it but I'm now a vet tech. Knowing vets by near I have the opinion that many vets seem to think they have the right to give opinions relating behavorial issues just by being vets, when, even been very good doctors, don't have even the capacity to handle a dog or hold it without te need of a muzzle, no need to talk about field experience. Some of them think they can give an opinion just by what they have seen in the clinic, like criticize a book by the covers. Of course, that is the reallity of my own country, and can't speaks of what the vets of other countries know.

 

But, in other order of things... puppy classes and obedience training is never a waste of time or a bad idea.

[mudthirsty]

Update..

 

Its been over a month now since I started this thread. We are going to week number 5 in obedience class tonight. We share a class with 4 other dogs, and their owners. Oddly enough, all the other owners, and the trainer are women. Which is too bad, because Brodie seems to be most aggressive around men. Anyways.. she's starting to improve, very slowly. She no longer barks at any of the owners, or the dogs. I mean, once in a while, she will want to bark and play with the other dogs, but her tail is wagging the whole time.

 

Today I went to walk her, and she barked like crazy at all the school kids, and one guy that walked past us. Then ten minutes later, a lady walked past, and brodie just sniffed. Plus, Brodie likes to pull on the leash alot, which is a whole other issue.

 

But anyways, thanks for everyones wonderful advice. Sue, you gave the same advice my trainer did when I first went to see her. She would not look at my dog, and just kept tossing treats. After about 30 minutes of speaking with the trainer, finally brodie was able to sniff her, and loosen up a bit.