Stump Pyo

[stockdogranch]

Just wondering what experiences any of you have had with stump pyo...did Betadine flushing and antibiotics clear it up, or was that only temporary, and was surgery subsequently required?

Thanks,

A

[Lenajo]

Both of the dogs I know with it died. Sorry.

[stockdogranch]

Well, that's not good. It seems we caught it, and are now douching daily with Betadine and on Clavamox, but the vet ways it will return (in 6 months or more?), so we need to look at yet again another surgery to get rid of more of the stump. What more does anyone know about it?

Thanks,

A

[Lenajo]

Well, that's not good. It seems we caught it, and are now douching daily with Betadine and on Clavamox, but the vet ways it will return (in 6 months or more?), so we need to look at yet again another surgery to get rid of more of the stump. What more does anyone know about it?

Thanks,

A

 

Thinking about this more.....surgery, and can they culture and treat with antibiotics that are specific the bacteria? What's firing off the stump hormonally - is there ovarian tissue left too?

 

I'd want to talk to a repro vet that had a good record of dealing with full uterus pyometra for suggestions.

[BCkris]

stump pyo... i suppose when she was spayed they left a small part of the uterus. if she has an infection now, there is a good possibility that it will come back at another time. Hopefully not at a time when she is older and will have a hard time fighting off infections and the risk of surgery becomes a lot higher. IMO i would do the surgery now, so that in the future you will not have to ever worry about this again. douching and antibiotics may help but pyo can eventually become very serious and the treatment every time will not only take a toll on her but your wallet too big time. if it were my pet i would do the surgery its the only way to really stop it from happening again.

I wish you the best and if you have specific questions post it!

[stockdogranch]

Thanks. I've been reading all sorts of things about stump pyometra vs. stump granuloma, etc. It seems that with a true stump pyometra that there must be some ovarian tissue remaining. I guess we won't know that for sure till the surgery. A lot of information talks about suture reaction from the spay, but since that was 14 months ago, that seems highly unlikely to me. I was present at the spay surgery, and there sure wasn't much of a stump left, so I am curious as to how it can be removed--I mean, the stump is less than an inch in length--so how much of it can or needs to be removed?

The douching and antibiotics are merely temporary--I am stalling off surgery for a month only, as I'd really like this bitch to run in the cattle finals the first weekend of May. She's my #1 dog and finished fifth last year. She'll be 9 years old in two weeks, and so this could possibly be her last finals to be really competitive. Any other information or experiences would be appreciated,

Thanks,

A

[Lenajo]

ok, not a vet, but if this were my dog I'd alternate douching her with colloidal silver and betadine. Also, if this is what we suspect - ovarian remains - how about hormone injections? What is the stuff they use to suppress heats - cheque drops? That might cool the fires until you get through the finals.

 

Anybody else I'd be chewing on for putting a trial ahead of health....but I know you aren't. I think you should go kick butt there with your slightly meno-pawsal cowdawg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I've been reading all sorts of things about stump pyometra vs. stump granuloma, etc. It seems that with a true stump pyometra that there must be some ovarian tissue remaining. I guess we won't know that for sure till the surgery. A lot of information talks about suture reaction from the spay, but since that was 14 months ago, that seems highly unlikely to me. I was present at the spay surgery, and there sure wasn't much of a stump left, so I am curious as to how it can be removed--I mean, the stump is less than an inch in length--so how much of it can or needs to be removed?

The douching and antibiotics are merely temporary--I am stalling off surgery for a month only, as I'd really like this bitch to run in the cattle finals the first weekend of May. She's my #1 dog and finished fifth last year. She'll be 9 years old in two weeks, and so this could possibly be her last finals to be really competitive. Any other information or experiences would be appreciated,

Thanks,

A

[AK dog doc]

If it's an open pyo (stump or otherwise) you absolutely can treat it with antibiotics (I'd advise systemic, personally). If you're trying to get through a trial or something like that and it's an open pyo (is showing discharge), then using AB's til you get past your trial (or lambing, or whatever event(s) you need the dog for at the moment) seems quite reasonable, so long as the dog is repsonding.

 

If it IS in fact a pyo and not some other process, then yes, they should be looking for an ovarian remnant. You would definitely expect a recurrence in 6 months or so. Pyometra happens AFTER the dog goes into heat, which requires some remant ovarian tissue, so the next time the dog goes into heat would be the next time you'd expect to see a problem. Recurrence rate on pyometra approaches 100% on the subsequent heat(s) UNLESS the dog is bred and achieves a pregnancy (obviously not going to happen in a spayed bitch). Unfortunately when the pyo signs occur it would generally be too late to do a vaginal cytology or check hormone levels since the estrus would already be over. If you were to note signs of estrus (vulvar enlargement, males being "romantically" interested in her) in about 4 to 5 months from now, you COULD do a cytology then and see if she looks like an estrous bitch.

 

One problem: even if this pyo is open, the next one might be closed, so it might be hard to tell she has it at first; that would mean she'd be at risk of getting pretty sick before you figured out what was happening.

 

I'll have to dissent on the colloidal silver. I know a lot of people believe in it, but - apart from the argyria risk, which is enough to put me off it, regardless - I've twice run tests on it here. I plated out a bacterial lawn, applied colloidal silver, and assessed response. Both times I had ZERO inhibition with it. Zero. Distilled water is as effective. I also did a test once with lavender oil; this was on a really nasty, multi-drug resistant ear infection containing at least three and possibly four different bacterial populations. No antibiotic I tested killed all of the poulations. Some killed nothing, some killed one or two poulations, but nothing killed all of them... except the lavender oil. That wiped out everything - and the incubator smelled really good! (Unfortunately, the dog wouldn't tolerate the lavender oil topically, so it ended up going to surgery anyway.)

[stockdogranch]

Thanks, AK Dog Doc! Apparently it is open, as the vagina was huge and pus-filled (the presentation was actually constipation because the colon was constricted. After not much luck with repeated enemas, the vet anesthetized her to do a high colonic, and then felt the huge vagina, milked it out, and out came a ton of pus). In addition to a lot of squatting and straining/pushing, she also acted like she was in labor--every time I let her outside she would run and hide under the bushes the exact same way she had when she was in labor with both litters (a year ago and 4 years ago). Anyway, she is also on Clavamox until after the finals, and the Betadine douche was only for 3-5 days. I guess my biggest question at this point is how do I know if it's really a pyometra, or perhaps just a nasty vaginitis (or is there any way to tell for sure)? I will talk to my vet again tomorrow when she is in the office and see what she says...

Thanks,

A

ETA: I meant to add that I never noticed males interested in her, nor did she have any swelling indicative of a cycle.

[Lenajo]

regarding the colloidal silver - my vet and I have used it to irrigate some nasty absesses, including an infected punctured hock on a ewe, and have great luck with it as sole course of treatment or combined with homeopathics. She swears by the stuff. And she's not anti-antibiotic...so it's not just an issue of choosing what she wants over what works.

 

I have never used it on a pyo as I stated.

 

I can't imagine how much cs you'd have to take to get argyria. I know people who've taken it internally daily for years now - 30ppm and higher - with no issues. But then again, you can eat too many carrots and turn orange if you try hard enough. If you get a chance to pm me any info you have on that I'd like to read it.

 

Back to Anna's dog. What's the chances of finding retained ovarian tissue? How small a remnent can cause a problem?

[AK dog doc]

regarding the colloidal silver - my vet and I have used it to irrigate some nasty absesses, including an infected punctured hock on a ewe, and have great luck with it as sole course of treatment or combined with homeopathics. She swears by the stuff. And she's not anti-antibiotic...so it's not just an issue of choosing what she wants over what works.

 

I have never used it on a pyo as I stated.

 

I can't imagine how much cs you'd have to take to get argyria. I know people who've taken it internally daily for years now - 30ppm and higher - with no issues. But then again, you can eat too many carrots and turn orange if you try hard enough. If you get a chance to pm me any info you have on that I'd like to read it.

 

Back to Anna's dog. What's the chances of finding retained ovarian tissue? How small a remnent can cause a problem?

 

A very small bit. Hormones act in tiny amounts, so it doesn't take much tissue to potentially create an issue. If the remnant is ectopic (as in, was not originally part of the ovary proper, but was instead a little nub of renegade ovarian tissue located elsewhere), it might be tough to find. If it's a little bit remaining on the ovarian stump - well, that's in a known position so there's a reasonably good chance of success there.

 

As for the argyria, a couple of things: One, not all people appear to be equally susceptible to that effect; Two, it may have something to do with the specific product used; and Three, it may be dose- and duration-related, and may or may not involve combination with other products. However, argyria is apparently irreversible, and I personally prefer not to take a chance that I'll spend the rest of my life looking like a 3-day-old corpse (it may not be much of a face, but I like it the color it is now; I'm vain that way). I'd also prefer that I am still able to assess color on my patients' gums, scleras, (etc), so I'd prefer not to have THEM have it, either. Since (at the moment) there do not appear to be good predictors of who will and who won't be affected, I'll pass. That's just me, though.

 

You should of course do as you feel best, and your vet can see your animals and I cannot, so I'm in no way advising you what to do there. I'm merely reporting my results on testing. So far, I've had 100% failure on colloidal silver. I have, however, been able to affect the bacterial lawn with water (in what appears to be a simple matter of dilution). I of course do not know if that was a factor in the cases of which you speak; nor do I know if your vet has run any objective tests to assess efficacy. If you and your vet want to use it, I can't object to that. I'll hold my dissenting opinion in view of MY results with it, but when it comes to what your vet advises you to do or what works in their hands, I have no dog in that fight. Do as you think best.

 

Anne, wiht the amount of pus you're describing, I seriously doubt it's a vaginitis. I don't think that amount of pus would be likely to occur without uterine involvement.

 

JMO, of course.

[herdcentral]

I have had 2 dogs with and open stump pyometra and surgery was the only permanent solution. My first dog we fiddled around with antibiotics with limited success and ended up with surgery. My second dog I never hesitated to have immediate surgery, she was so sick. Never had any further problems with either.

 

The very word pyometra would have my dog straight into surgery, one of my youngsters had pyometra after her first heat and she also went straight in for an emergency spay. I have known several dogs to die from pyometra despite treatment and eventual surgery so I would consider it a potentially very serious condition not to be messed with.

[stockdogranch]

Talked again with my vet yesterday...she says she's sure the uterine stump was/is involved, as when she scoped her, that's where the pus was coming from. So that answers that. She wants my bitch on antibiotics until we get back from the finals, then she will recheck her and we will go from there...probably surgery.

Thanks everyone,

A

[C Crocker]

Talked again with my vet yesterday...she says she's sure the uterine stump was/is involved, as when she scoped her, that's where the pus was coming from. So that answers that. She wants my bitch on antibiotics until we get back from the finals, then she will recheck her and we will go from there...probably surgery.

Thanks everyone,

A

 

 

Hi Anna,

 

Best of luck at the Cattledog Natl's and best of luck with the possible surgery when you get home.

 

Carolyn