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I can't give you any advise, but I'll tell you my experience with the first dog I tried to housebreak. Everytime he would wet in the house, I would rub his nose in it, shake him, and throw him out the window. This went on for just a week and the dog was completely trained! Now he would wet in the house, shake himself, and jump out the window!

 

 

Now I just use a doggy door. :D

 

Long time, no see, Dixie Girl! Welcome back to you and your sense of humor! :rolleyes:

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Long time, no see, Dixie Girl! Welcome back to you and your sense of humor! :rolleyes:

 

That's funny Dixie!

 

I too am having trouble with housetraining. Perhaps especially frustrating because: a. this dog is smart, b. I can tell she knows better. She has just been spayed, so when she's feeling better I will try tethering. What's contributing to the issue now is that I can't catch her doing it. I have not really crated her and I don't like the idea of crating anyway. But, I'll tell you what, we'd better get this fixed fast at this point as I'm losing my patience. thanks so much for the advice. I can certainly point to our lack of a schedule as a big part of the problem.

 

My first dog (now 10) peed in the house exactly once and has never had an accident since--even when left alone for 12+ hours while I was having a baby (we finally thought to call a friend to go let her out!).

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I too am having trouble with housetraining. Perhaps especially frustrating because: a. this dog is smart, b. I can tell she knows better. She has just been spayed, so when she's feeling better I will try tethering. What's contributing to the issue now is that I can't catch her doing it. I have not really crated her and I don't like the idea of crating anyway. But, I'll tell you what, we'd better get this fixed fast at this point as I'm losing my patience. thanks so much for the advice. I can certainly point to our lack of a schedule as a big part of the problem.

 

I think sometimes we feel like whatever we need to do to housebreak our dogs will be forever. We'll need to tether or crate or gate off or take the dog out every hour or whatever forever. And because we don't want to have to do those things for the next 10 - 15 years, we may try to housebreak in a way that feels easy and natural to us. I'm not saying there is only one way to housebreak. I think there are lots of ways. I've seen dogs become housetrained -- eventually -- despite what seemed to me a wildly inconsistent, very ineffective approach to training by their owners. But if what you have been trying isn't working for you on your timeline, then you may want to consider trying a method that feels less appealing for the time being... until the dog is truly housetrained. The longer the dog has to practice unwanted behaviors, the more challenging it is to train the behaviors you do want.

 

I'm no fan of the housebreaking period. Never letting the puppy or dog out of my sight, which may mean tethering or gating the dog into the same room with me. Going out pretty much hourly if the puppy is awake. Crating when I leave or can not give the puppy my attention. Being consistent. And you are absolutely right. Finding and keeping to a schedule that works is extremely important. It's no fun. It takes work but it gets the job done and for the rest of the dog's life you have a dog you can trust in the house.

 

Not knowing your dog, I can't say whether she "knows better" though I'm sure she's very smart. :rolleyes: I just don't find it is all that helpful to make an assumption of what the dog knows when it comes to housebreaking. She probably does know you don't like finding messes. I can't imagine she is making messes to tick you off. The biggest problem with assuming the dog knows better is it can lead to anger and anger is often very counterproductive to housebreaking. I'd say she needs some clearer communication of what you want. She also needs more help doing what you want by you making it hard for her to do the wrong thing. That is where tethering, crating and not letting the dog out of your sight comes in. And give her lots of opportunities to do the right thing. Going out frequently. Making a big happy fuss when she eliminates outside.

 

Go back to zero, despite her age and intelligence. Treat her the way you would an 8 week old puppy. As she makes progress, be slow to give her more freedom and unsupervised time. Better to be to be overly cautious where she will be practicing the right behaviors than moving too quickly and letting her practice the ones you don't want.

 

Good luck. And remember. It isn't forever. It just feels that way sometimes. :D

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What's contributing to the issue now is that I can't catch her doing it.

 

have you ever caught her doing it indoors? how did you react? will she pee in front of you outdoors?

 

I have not really crated her and I don't like the idea of crating anyway.

 

You can avoid a crate and still confine: use baby gates, shut doors, tether her to you or an object in the room. Whatever works to keep her from being able to get out of your sight and pee where you won't see it.

 

I find that it is just as important to get the history of going outside and being rewarded...then you teach 2 things: 1 humans like it when you pee outdoors 2 humans don;t like it when you pee indoors. Add that to the habit of peeing outdoors and you will see an improvement.

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have you ever caught her doing it indoors? how did you react? will she pee in front of you outdoors?

You can avoid a crate and still confine: use baby gates, shut doors, tether her to you or an object in the room. Whatever works to keep her from being able to get out of your sight and pee where you won't see it.

 

I find that it is just as important to get the history of going outside and being rewarded...then you teach 2 things: 1 humans like it when you pee outdoors 2 humans don;t like it when you pee indoors. Add that to the habit of peeing outdoors and you will see an improvement.

 

 

First of all, my apologies for hijacking this thread!

 

I have always taken her outside to potty since we got her. I take her out on leash to the spot, say "Potty, Potty" and 9 times out of 10 she potties. Then I act like an idiot over it, and sometimes treat. Then we play a little and go in and play some more. She is confined to the kitchen and laundry when we can't watch her via baby gates. It's more like when we're in the family room in the evening, she'll run into the playroom and sneak a leak. The longest she has been alone in the house (alone being with our hound) is 7 hours when we were away at a birthday party. I was ready for a mess, but she didn't do anything! She also goes all night without a problem. So, she CAN hold it quite a while.

 

When I've caught her in the act, It's AH AH, NO NO and I try to look really angry. I then put her out and clean up. I've also tried telling her THAT'S NAUGHTY, NO NO, and giving her a very stern talking to. I've also swatted her butt a couple of times (which I quickly realized makes absolutely no impression on her at all--the angry look and stern talking to seems to work better judging from the look in her eye).

 

Please don't get me wrong, I am not angry--more frustrated and can't figure what the issue is. Seems it shouldn't be so hard with such a smart dog.

 

I say she knows she shouldn't go in the house (or knows doing so is a problem) because if I walk into a room she's messed in, before I even see the mess, she stops cold at the entrance to the room and turns to go the other way. She'd normally follow me right into the room.

 

I've put a lot of thought into this and here's the plan. Today started tethering. I also decided to consistently treat (at least for now) as she's pretty motivated by treats. I also blocked off the room she most frequently messes in ( I've used enzymatic cleaners--hardwood floor). Also took up all the little area rugs since she seemed pretty fond of them. So far, so good. I guess it's back to square one for us. Oh, I also put a bell by the back door. Today, I've dinged it right before I open the door. I've wondered if she simply doesn't know how to tell us she needs to go? I figure, why not try it? Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks for the reminder that it doesn't last forever! You're right that it seems it will. Just need to remind myself that it's like baby and toddler stages with the kids; this too shall pass.

 

All this talk about pottying.....gotta run! :rolleyes:

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I say she knows she shouldn't go in the house (or knows doing so is a problem) because if I walk into a room she's messed in, before I even see the mess, she stops cold at the entrance to the room and turns to go the other way. She'd normally follow me right into the room.

Well, you never know. I had a hard time housetraining my male Pap, he was a kennel dog and he pooped when he was anxious. I worked hard on it for months...it was hard and frustrating..

 

At one point we visited my dad, and my dads dog pooped (he was overexcited) and my dog got to looking really guilty and slunk off.

 

I realized I had not taught him I didn't like it when he pooped inside, I had instead taught him I got mad when there was poop on the floor. To this day if someone poops inside (say a foster dog) he freak out.

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Well, you never know. I had a hard time housetraining my male Pap, he was a kennel dog and he pooped when he was anxious. I worked hard on it for months...it was hard and frustrating..

 

At one point we visited my dad, and my dads dog pooped (he was overexcited) and my dog got to looking really guilty and slunk off.

 

I realized I had not taught him I didn't like it when he pooped inside, I had instead taught him I got mad when there was poop on the floor. To this day if someone poops inside (say a foster dog) he freak out.

 

OK, this post REALLY wasn't worth the trouble of all these multiple posts--sorry everybody, I'm on my work computer and I don't know what happened! It just posted a ton of multiple posts without me posting them manually; I'm not sure how. I have PMed Eileen to ask her to delete them. ETA: Fixed. Thanks Eileen!

 

ANYWAY I was just going to say, yeah it is really important only to scold if you catch them in the act. Scolding once it has already happened--I've read and been told by trainers the dog won't even realize it was something they did. So it is important they're not afraid of you so they will go in front of you, so you can catch them.

 

The time that cinched it for Vala was after teaching her the "inside" "outside" and "use the restroom" vocabulary, one day I caught her peeing, stopped her in mid-pee by saying "NO ma'am, NO USE THE RESTROOM INSIDE," and brought her outside to finish where I praised her to high heaven saying "GOOD GIRL! USE THE RESTROOM OUTSIDE!" in a super happy voice. It clicked then; that was the last time she went in the house (except when she was on steroids after heartworm treatment--which she really couldn't help so of course she didn't get scolded, felt like it was my fault).

 

ETA: Also in retrospect I highly advocate a better potty phrase than "use the restroom" b/c it's too clunky, but it's what I'm used to b/c I was a dunce about dog training when I first got Pan, but Pan miraculously (because she was brilliant) learned to understand it and now Vala does too b/c I basically always forget to call it something other than that.

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Thanks for everyones input.

 

I have tried a number of different enzyme cleaners and I truly don't believe they work. Before we managed to hide the favorite piece of rug (it is now safely under a sofa) it was obvious it still smelt like a place to poop. That problem has been solved. We are planning on refinishing the floor in area that he uses, which should get ride of any lingering odor. Problem is finding the time to do it.

 

Regarding going back to basics with crate training, this is something I am not entirely comfortable with, and in a conversation with the rescue he came through and their favorite trainer they also don't think that will work. The problem is this that he is crate trained and fully understands that you do not go in the crate, what we need to do is make the connection that the house is also his crate and you do not go there as well.

I have a meeting this week with the trainer I mentioned to come up with a plan, I will share what he has to say. I realize this is about management and remembering things like closing the baby gate to the basement. I should add he does not have complete freedom of the house and is crated when there is no supervision.

 

Teathering him to me does not work as he gets frustrated and rather than playing with his toys he starts to work on the line/leash ( he is not daft and knows that his is way to freedom) and the one thing that is verboten in this house is chewing on anything that looks like a piece of line. My husband is a yacht rigger and we often have pieces of line that cost ridiculous amounts of money in our house and trucks. So we do not play tug with anything that looks like line or allow any mouthing of leashes etc.

 

Edited to add: he is not yet neutered, but this is not marking just good old fashioned I need to go to the bathroom.

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Thanks for everyones input.

 

I have tried a number of different enzyme cleaners and I truly don't believe they work. Before we managed to hide the favorite piece of rug (it is now safely under a sofa) it was obvious it still smelt like a place to poop. That problem has been solved. We are planning on refinishing the floor in area that he uses, which should get ride of any lingering odor. Problem is finding the time to do it.

 

SNIP

 

Teathering him to me does not work as he gets frustrated and rather than playing with his toys he starts to work on the line/leash ( he is not daft and knows that his is way to freedom) and the one thing that is verboten in this house is chewing on anything that looks like a piece of line. My husband is a yacht rigger and we often have pieces of line that cost ridiculous amounts of money in our house and trucks. So we do not play tug with anything that looks like line or allow any mouthing of leashes etc.

 

Edited to add: he is not yet neutered, but this is not marking just good old fashioned I need to go to the bathroom.

 

When you do re-finish, there is a special lacquer or sealant that is used over cat urine, etc. You should be able to ask for it just that way.

 

You can buy light weight steel cable or a chain leash to tether him, either to you or to a stationary object.

 

Good luck, I'll be interested to hear what the trainer says.

 

Ruth

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OK, this post REALLY wasn't worth the trouble of all these multiple posts--sorry everybody, I'm on my work computer and I don't know what happened! It just posted a ton of multiple posts without me posting them manually; I'm not sure how. I have PMed Eileen to ask her to delete them. ETA: Fixed. Thanks Eileen!

 

ANYWAY I was just going to say, yeah it is really important only to scold if you catch them in the act. Scolding once it has already happened--I've read and been told by trainers the dog won't even realize it was something they did. So it is important they're not afraid of you so they will go in front of you, so you can catch them.

And you don't even have to actively scold them...with Harley I "knew better than to punish after the fact." Of course I was pissed...he has this habit of backing up to a wall to poop (I know, its weird, I don't get it either)...so in addition to a pile I would have a brown mark on the baseboard or the wall. Intellectually I knew he was clueless and I shouldn't be mad.

 

After 3 months of constant work on the house training, when I found poop I would be so frustrated. I am sure I just oozed anger while I cleaned it up, when I saw it. Thats all it took. He is sensitive and smart in his own way...he put 2 and 2 together: she sees poop, she gets mad.

 

FWIW: it took a while but at 12, and with a minor spinal cord problem that affects his mobility, he is the best and most reliably clean dog I know. He hasn't had a house accident in 10 years.

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I have tried a number of different enzyme cleaners and I truly don't believe they work. Before we managed to hide the favorite piece of rug (it is now safely under a sofa) it was obvious it still smelt like a place to poop. That problem has been solved. We are planning on refinishing the floor in area that he uses, which should get ride of any lingering odor. Problem is finding the time to do it.

 

Yeah, actually, I heard they changed the Nature's Miracle formulation, and since they did a few years ago, I don't think it worked nearly as well either. Part of the problem is that the area needs to be fully soaked, sometimes multiple times. A while ago someone told me about another enzymatic that has the old NM formulation, but I forget the name now. My cat who was our big problem child died about a year ago so I haven't needed any in a while. Bleach will also work but obviously that tends to ruin things!

 

Regarding going back to basics with crate training, this is something I am not entirely comfortable with, and in a conversation with the rescue he came through and their favorite trainer they also don't think that will work. The problem is this that he is crate trained and fully understands that you do not go in the crate, what we need to do is make the connection that the house is also his crate and you do not go there as well.

I have a meeting this week with the trainer I mentioned to come up with a plan, I will share what he has to say. I realize this is about management and remembering things like closing the baby gate to the basement. I should add he does not have complete freedom of the house and is crated when there is no supervision.

 

I'd be curious to know why that trainer doesn't think it wouldn't work, especially if Riveleax is the type of dog who does not soil in the crate (some do, depending on their history). No, just crate training isn't a magic button. As in, if you crate at night and introduce a "crate up" (or similar command, that's not going to magically stop him from going when he's not in the crate. The crate is a management tool. The big goal here is to NEVER let him be alone, not even for 30 seconds, so you can prevent the accidents from happening - and if they do, be able to correct him during the actual deed (as pansmom and others have said, never after, even right after). Because it's hard to keep an eye on a dog 24/7, you use the crate when you have other things to do. The dog will earn his freedom.

 

The house will never be the same as a crate - ever. To think they are, is to misunderstand the crate. My dog never goes inside, but it's not because he thinks of the whole house as his crate, it's because he knows to never go inside. They don't go in the crate because they don't have room to soil without soiling themselves. The house will always be too big for that. He may very well think of the house as his larger "home", but it is definitely a home big enough for a "potty room".

 

Teathering him to me does not work as he gets frustrated and rather than playing with his toys he starts to work on the line/leash ( he is not daft and knows that his is way to freedom) and the one thing that is verboten in this house is chewing on anything that looks like a piece of line. My husband is a yacht rigger and we often have pieces of line that cost ridiculous amounts of money in our house and trucks. So we do not play tug with anything that looks like line or allow any mouthing of leashes etc.

 

Well, if he's with you, you have ample opportunity to teach him to never chew his leash, line, or tether! If you really never want him chewing on line, what better opportunity to be able to stop him each and every time he ever even tries, so there is no question about house rules.

 

Either way, it sounds to me like you have to find some way to never have him out unless he's under your control. Not forever, but for now. Until then, my guess is he'll continue to go when you aren't there/not looking. I also highly recommend introducing a "go potty" command, as that helps when I don't have time to wait for him.

 

In response to everyone saying you have to be careful about making your dog afraid to go to the bathroom in front of you, it works both ways. My dog was praised so heavily for going outside, he is now an exhibitionist. :rolleyes: If I am walking down a street and only one person is out watering their lawn, whose street easement does he stop to go on EVERY time?? Yep - never fails.

 

Good luck to you! These times will pass if you are persistent, I promise. He sounds like a smart boy.

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Having a puppy in the house is fun, but it is NOT easy. Somehow I always forget that fact when it comes time to bring a new puppy home... lol But I'm always reminded *very* quickly of how exhausting it is.

 

Housetraining is completely on you, the owner, and as in all things related to dog training, depends on consistency.

 

When I bring a puppy home, I do not like to fall into the lazy trap of kenneling it all the time. It's my job to provide stimulation, training & to keep an eye on said puppy. Border Collie puppies are VERY active, so yes, it's tiring. Secret's accidents tended to happen when I'd fallen asleep on the couch in the evening -- my fault!

 

At 7 1/2 months, I have a hard time believing you have not yet tuned in to the cues your dog gives when it has to go potty -- sniffing, circling, etc. -- they are there, but you must WATCH the dog.

 

Any time any of my dogs have had an accident it is MY fault, not theirs. I make a loud noise if I catch them in the act, but if I find the spot after it's already been made, I just bite my tongue and clean it up.

 

My first dog had *zero* accidents in the house because he was my whole world at the time. We went outside frequently and he caught on very quickly. I got a bit lazy and lax with the last two and they had a few more accidents, but both were fully trained in well under two months.

 

Training a puppy correctly takes WORK in the beginning, but the end result is definitely worth it. I happen to think that they catch on a bit quicker if they don't spend their entire life in the crate, but that's just me -- and of course, it takes more work.

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My first dog had *zero* accidents in the house because he was my whole world at the time. We went outside frequently and he caught on very quickly. I got a bit lazy and lax with the last two and they had a few more accidents, but both were fully trained in well under two months.

 

Training a puppy correctly takes WORK in the beginning, but the end result is definitely worth it. I happen to think that they catch on a bit quicker if they don't spend their entire life in the crate, but that's just me -- and of course, it takes more work.

 

Lots of ways to train, many of which will work quite well as long as you believe in the method and are consistent. I don't think anyone has suggested a puppy or dog needs to spend their entire life in a crate while being housetrained. I do think a number of us have said that crating or otherwise confining a dog when you can not give them adequate supervision is a good route to go. As much as I love my dogs and consider them my sunshine, I haven't ever succeeded in making them my whole world. I haven't even tried. What with my poor attention span and that pesky job. :D

 

I also think there is a continuum of easy to hard when it came to housebreaking. I used to believe that as long as you were consistent and stuck to your method, any pup could be fairly easily housebroken. Until I met my Lhasa. He wasn't housebroken until well over a year old and to this day I need to keep an eye on him and yes, gasp, even crate him when I leave or he will mark. Quinn was housebroken virtually at 9 weeks, so long as he went out frequently when loose or awake, which we did. He also was the most resistant of my dogs to my puppy management techniques -- sawing through tethers and knocking over gates to chew on them. Really, housebreaking ease was his very best feature for those first few months when it was like bringing a coyote pup into my home. :rolleyes:

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In response to everyone saying you have to be careful about making your dog afraid to go to the bathroom in front of you, it works both ways. My dog was praised so heavily for going outside, he is now an exhibitionist. :rolleyes: If I am walking down a street and only one person is out watering their lawn, whose street easement does he stop to go on EVERY time?? Yep - never fails.

 

:D

 

[little kid voice] "Mom! Mon! Are you watching? I'm pooping, are you watching?" [/little kid voice]

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Well, for us so far so good. No accidents since Sunday first thing in the morning! I still have her favorite room blocked off, and have been tethering when I can't watch her like a hawk. Fingers (legs?) crossed! A couple of things just posted really hit home for me---1. my being upset after the fact only teaches her I don't like messes; doesn't teach her I don't like HER to mess. So the key is to catch her in the act and I can only do that if I really watch her like a hawk. Also, the exhortation to have a schedule. Very hard for us right now, but I at least try to stay consistent in the evenings. Thanks for all of the feedback, it really helps to bring on those "ah ha" moments!

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Well, for us so far so good. No accidents since Sunday first thing in the morning! I still have her favorite room blocked off, and have been tethering when I can't watch her like a hawk. Fingers (legs?) crossed! A couple of things just posted really hit home for me---1. my being upset after the fact only teaches her I don't like messes; doesn't teach her I don't like HER to mess. So the key is to catch her in the act and I can only do that if I really watch her like a hawk. Also, the exhortation to have a schedule. Very hard for us right now, but I at least try to stay consistent in the evenings. Thanks for all of the feedback, it really helps to bring on those "ah ha" moments!

 

 

Since you are doing this I think you'll have it much less time than you are expecting.

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Since you are doing this I think you'll have it much less time than you are expecting.

 

Saturday evening and we have gone all week without an accident! Yeah! I think the tethering, treating and, especially, the closing off of her favorite room, has helped a lot! Is there a point at which I can open that room back up (again, only supervised?)?

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Saturday evening and we have gone all week without an accident! Yeah! I think the tethering, treating and, especially, the closing off of her favorite room, has helped a lot! Is there a point at which I can open that room back up (again, only supervised?)?

 

 

Congrats!! Once I had what you have now I let Bea have access to her hall which was her chosen pee spot, but still kept a close watch, never letting her go there alone. Happy to say all was fine, she was house trained and that was that.

 

It really was a matter of diligence and with no access to the old spot. I was surprised how quickly she got it given I had thought I had been diligent prior, but I had confused her prior.

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Guest echoica
Saturday evening and we have gone all week without an accident! Yeah! I think the tethering, treating and, especially, the closing off of her favorite room, has helped a lot! Is there a point at which I can open that room back up (again, only supervised?)?

 

Glad to hear she is doing much better now!! Great work =)

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Is there a point at which I can open that room back up (again, only supervised?)?

 

Very exciting about the week of success! I'd hold off for a while before allowing access to that room and when you do, make sure that it is only when you can give her 100% attention, not just be in there with her. This is just my opinion, but I really think it is so much better to go slowly and maybe be overly cautious than move too quickly and undo progress. Probably I would not go into that room with her for at least a month (and would be clean it like a crazed person first). Then when I took her in, again, it would be only if I was going to be able to make her stay right by me or we were going to be interacting with training or play.

 

Not sure -- how old is your girl? I'm going to assume she's had a whole lot longer than a week of practicing behaviors you don't want. So give her lots of time to practice the behaviors you want. Don 't give in to the temptation to rush the process. Like so much of training, housebreaking is a journey as well as a destination. :rolleyes:

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Very exciting about the week of success! I'd hold off for a while before allowing access to that room and when you do, make sure that it is only when you can give her 100% attention, not just be in there with her. This is just my opinion, but I really think it is so much better to go slowly and maybe be overly cautious than move too quickly and undo progress. Probably I would not go into that room with her for at least a month (and would be clean it like a crazed person first). Then when I took her in, again, it would be only if I was going to be able to make her stay right by me or we were going to be interacting with training or play.

 

Not sure -- how old is your girl? I'm going to assume she's had a whole lot longer than a week of practicing behaviors you don't want. So give her lots of time to practice the behaviors you want. Don 't give in to the temptation to rush the process. Like so much of training, housebreaking is a journey as well as a destination. :rolleyes:

 

Yes, Star is 6 months and we've had her for almost 3 of those. She was completely "stop and drop" when we first got her. She'd never been in a house in her entire life so I think she was used to going whenever the urge hit. She'd go in the crate, dog beds, rugs, hard floor...just wherever she happened to be. I'll wait quite awhile on that favorite pee room. Thanks for all of your help!

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