Jump to content
BC Boards
The Good Shepherd

breeding "mixes" for competition

Recommended Posts

We had a discussion during our training sessions yesterday about being able to compete with "Mix Breeds" in AKC now.

 

Here is what my trainer (2OTCG's 2 MACH's, UCDX's, ASCA UDX's) told us:

 

"Breeders" are now starting to breed BC/Pitbulls for Agility for a combo of speed/power

"Breeders" are now starting to breed BC/Huskies for mashing for a combo of speed/power/endurance

And of course we have "Mini Aussies" and now "Mini Border Collies" all in order to compete in a different height class!

 

Theese are not "Oops litters" but PLANNED with puppies pre-sold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is really disturbing me - I hope I never run into any of theese "competitors" or I will be thrown out of the trial :rolleyes::D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been happening for a while now as mixed breeds have always been able to compete in other venues.

 

While I don't agree with it because there are a gazillion mixed breed dogs in shelter that would make perfect sport dogs, I don't find it any worse then breeding two purebreds that shouldn't be bred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you, although I personally have never heared of a purebred litter beeing bred soley for Agility or musher dogs and nothing else!!!

 

I feel reallly bad about the dogs that "don't make the cut", we all know where they end up!

 

I was told at an Agility run-through by a woman with a "mini-Aussie" (specifically bred for Agility and only Agility)

that she would "dispose" of my GSD Kati, because Kati is not "Fast" enough and get another dog!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly don't know why people would breed mixes due to the AKC decision - they all have to be s/n before registration.

 

I've never heard of the BC/Pit crosses, but BC/Staffy and JRT/BC crosses are quite popular in flyball already.

 

BC/Husky and similar mixes are equivalent to Alaskan huskies I would think - and Alaskan Huskies have been around for years.

 

And of course the mini phenomemnon has also been around for years.

 

I have perfect sport mixes myself - 2 BC/ACDs (one possibly mixed with GSD or Malinois as well) and a Corgi/JRT/BC/?. One BC/ACD was $20 from a local shelter and the other two were $55 from the shelter where I work. I never really understood breeding mixes given my amazing shelter dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I feel reallly bad about the dogs that "don't make the cut", we all know where they end up!

 

I was told at an Agility run-through by a woman with a "mini-Aussie" (specifically bred for Agility and only Agility) that she would "dispose" of my GSD Kati, because Kati is not "Fast" enough and get another dog!!!!

 

That is at the extreme edge of competitors out there. Most start in the sport to do something fun with a dog they love. Future dogs may then be chosen with an eye for the "right" agility dog, but other than a couple way at the top of the game who are truly pros, I've never known anyone to get rid of a dog because he didn't pan out in a sport. For the vast majority of us agility is a game in which we have various levels of ambition.

 

FWIW, I have two dogs who didn't "make the cut" and they're still with me, eating home cooked meals, sleeping on my bed and being wonderful companions. Poor Quinn would have excelled from all I saw in our classes, but then I dropped out of dog sports, so I guess I don't make the cut either. Fortunately, he didn't get rid of me for a person with higher drive and ability. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with you, although I personally have never heared of a purebred litter beeing bred soley for Agility or musher dogs and nothing else!!!

 

I feel reallly bad about the dogs that "don't make the cut", we all know where they end up!

 

I was told at an Agility run-through by a woman with a "mini-Aussie" (specifically bred for Agility and only Agility)

that she would "dispose" of my GSD Kati, because Kati is not "Fast" enough and get another dog!!!!

 

Google "border jack" and "BC/Staffy"

 

I would guess that the majority of these dogs go to people who want a sport dog and once they get the dog, they're committed to it for life. They just want to stack the deck in their favor as much as possible so they get a sport bred dog from two known parents. Once again, I don't agree with it, but I kind of understand where they are coming from.

 

Yup, people with the disposable mentality are certainly out there, but I don't think they're in the majority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, ok, serious sled dog people don't call it mushing.

 

Border Collies have been crossed with huskies for decades as sled dogs. They are not sold as sheepdogs and no one claims they could be. The vast majority of litters produced by serious dog sledding kennels are NOT sold. They keep the entire litter to train for their own team. The extra dogs who don't make the grade either stay and are moved to the secondary string or are sold to people who have slower teams (or just do recreational dog sledding). These are purpose bred dogs and are not being produced for some new fad. It is no different that people breeding pure Border Collies for work/trials who do not depend on farming for their livelyhood.

 

If you see a kennel selling whole litters of BC x husky cross pups you can be fairly certain that they are doing it for the money, just like every other BYB and puppy mill out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Breeding mixes "on purpose" is very big in the flyball world -- mostly to get "height dogs" (short, fast dogs that bring the height down for all dogs on the team).

 

I can't say I've seen people breeding mixes intentially for agility purposes, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.

 

I really don't see it becoming the next "big thing" in AKC agility.

 

A BC breeder I was looking at started to breed "Borderdoodles" (BC mixed with Poodles) for their "hypo-allergenic" qualities. I crossed that breeder off my list....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've never known anyone to get rid of a dog because he didn't pan out in a sport. For the vast majority of us agility is a game in which we have various levels of ambition.

 

Me neither. Pretty much every fellow competitor that I know well has a dog or two who did not "pan out", and/or retired dogs who can no longer compete. These dogs are loved members of the family (or whatever it pleases one to call it), and they are well cared for and appreciated as pets and companions.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - obviously it does. I would say, though, that it's not the norm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I honestly don't know why people would breed mixes due to the AKC decision - they all have to be s/n before registration.

 

I've never heard of the BC/Pit crosses, but BC/Staffy and JRT/BC crosses are quite popular in flyball already.

 

BC/Husky and similar mixes are equivalent to Alaskan huskies I would think - and Alaskan Huskies have been around for years.

 

And of course the mini phenomemnon has also been around for years.

 

I have perfect sport mixes myself - 2 BC/ACDs (one possibly mixed with GSD or Malinois as well) and a Corgi/JRT/BC/?. One BC/ACD was $20 from a local shelter and the other two were $55 from the shelter where I work. I never really understood breeding mixes given my amazing shelter dogs.

 

 

I've seen some dogs come into rescue that we strongly suspected were BC/Staff or JRT/BC or Aussie/Staff mixes and the down side of breeding for competition that rewards drive, high energy, and athleticism is you often get a dog that is not easy to live :rolleyes:

 

In sled dogs though, they almost always use mixes in serious competition, have for years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... the down side of breeding for competition that rewards drive, high energy, and athleticism is you often get a dog that is not easy to live :rolleyes:

 

But isn't this true of any dog bred for competition - whether it's a pure-bred or mixed breed? If you breed for competitive characteristics you are probably going to get a dog with competitive characteristics, and that includes every sphere of life. A pure-bred BC that is bred for competition isn't going to any easier to live with than a bc/staffy (except that the staffy-mix probably has the added difficulty of being insanely strong).

 

So according to the general philosophy of this board, which I pretty much agree with, the real issue is dogs being bred for competition rather than for stock work. If what a person really truly wants is a competition dog and is determined to get a dog that was bred specifically for sports, then it seems like it would be better to go with one of these deliberate crosses than a purebred "sporter collie," no?

 

Anyway, just my two sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you breed for competitive characteristics you are probably going to get a dog with competitive characteristics, and that includes every sphere of life. A pure-bred BC that is bred for competition isn't going to any easier to live with than a bc/staffy (except that the staffy-mix probably has the added difficulty of being insanely strong).

 

Not necessarily. Quinn is the quintessential (sorry for the pun) sports bred dog. A ton of drive. Always game for whatever I ask. His breeder, despite other shortcomings, did want dogs with that famous "off switch" and he is a great companion around the house. I've known many other mainly sports bread Border Collies that are just as easy to live with.

 

If what a person really truly wants is a competition dog and is determined to get a dog that was bred specifically for sports, then it seems like it would be better to go with one of these deliberate crosses than a purebred "sporter collie," no?

 

This doesn't seem to be the case in agility so much as in flyball where the've been doing crosses for years. I still remember my horror when I first heard of a Border-Jack. The agility people I know see purebred sports bred Border Collies as better bets than the mixes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not necessarily. Quinn is the quintessential (sorry for the pun) sports bred dog. A ton of drive. Always game for whatever I ask. His breeder, despite other shortcomings, did want dogs with that famous "off switch" and he is a great companion around the house. I've known many other mainly sports bread Border Collies that are just as easy to live with.

This doesn't seem to be the case in agility so much as in flyball where the've been doing crosses for years. I still remember my horror when I first heard of a Border-Jack. The agility people I know see purebred sports bred Border Collies as better bets than the mixes.

 

 

Right...I didn't mean to suggest that any dog bred for sports was going to be difficult to live with. Just that it seems to me that there's no reason why a sport bred bc would be any less difficult to live with than a sport bred bc/staffy (which, from everything I've read and my own experiences with Daisy who I think is a bc/pit mix of some kind, are wonderfully solid dogs for the most part).

 

As far as agility goes, I haven't really seen too many mixed breeds of any kind (although my agility experience is limited to the classes at my club.) In fact, looking back, I think that Daisy has been the only non pure-bred dog in any of our classes, although I know one of the instructors does obedience and agility with her rescue mixes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as agility goes, I haven't really seen too many mixed breeds of any kind (although my agility experience is limited to the classes at my club.) In fact, looking back, I think that Daisy has been the only non pure-bred dog in any of our classes, although I know one of the instructors does obedience and agility with her rescue mixes.

 

Same here. I run a mix myself, and I tend to pay attention (with interest) to the amount of mixes at trials. They are very much in the minority.

 

And the mixes that I've seen run rarely set the world on fire out there. For the most part, the Border Collies, Goldens, and Shelties tend to have the nicest runs I've seen. OK, I'll admit I rarely watch the 4 and 8 inch dogs, so I could be missing some dazzling Agility in those height categories.

 

That's just my observation - nothing statistical or scientific about it. It's probably different everywhere else. But here, and in the competitions in which I run, I don't see any particular mix that really stands out as particularly suited to Agility. Certainly no more than any of the well run purebreds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sport mixes have been around for years. There is at least one top agility person who has such a mix and she claims the dog as a purebred. He does look it after all. This dog has been around for years and I am not even sure he runs agility any more or how good he was.

 

You have the same in flyball. People will adjust the breedings if it fits into what they need at the time. A bc/mix who looks all bc may be registered as a bc

and not a mix.

 

I myself have a borderjack. He is probably one of the rare ones as he is pretty laid back. He was hell on wheels until he was a year old but then it all changed. He can go days without playing as long we he can cuddle up under a blanket. I know a couple other borderjacks and they also have decent offswitches but not like Riot's. Of course I also know of some that have bad temperaments and some have had to be euthanized.

 

I know a few border/staffies and the one thing you hear about them - they have an offswitch. The ones I know about all seem to be cuddle bunnies at home and then become crazy maniacs on the race lanes.

 

Many times an offswitch is taught to a dog and I work hard on trying to teach my dogs to chill out especially if I don't want to play at the time.

 

All and all - I can see why some are very against it but at the same time at least the breeders are breeding for a purpose and not just adding to the population. Many sport breeders that breed the sport mixes are not placing these dogs in pet homes. I know one lady who takes placement her mixed breedings as when she breeds a purebred litter. You have to pass an interview and be put on a list. The list means nothing because as she gets to know the people and the puppies she will try and fit the puppy with the right people.

 

I will never be a breeder but I also won't take anything away from those that are at least being responsible about it.

 

Yes bcs should be bred for working ability (herding and not sports) but that is not how the world is any more. I have accepted it and even have a sport bred mix. And as atonement my last dog who has been here 3 weeks today is a rescue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Targert Border Collies crosses Staffys and Border Collies, and Whippets and Border Collies. All these dogs are sold well in advance but what confuses me is they all have pedigree names? How can something have a pedigree name if its a cross bred? They are interesting dogs to say the least and they must work because they are going for dog sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes bcs should be bred for working ability (herding and not sports) but that is not how the world is any more.

 

Hi Kim,

 

I'm interested what you mean by the quote above. Will you explain?

 

Kim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are too many sport breeders out there breeding for things other than herding ability. They are breeding for sports and using the bc to breed the mixes. I am not saying it it right but it is the way it is. I give all the bc owners that are trying to keep them for what they were originally bred to be and I am sure they will succeed. It just won't be easy since so many breeders are breeding for other venues now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have 2 points:

 

1. I keep reading here how people will "get rid of" agility dogs who "don't make the cut." I have read several threads where this is mentioned as happening "all the time."

 

I have been involved in obedience and agility for almost 20 years, living in 5 different states/areas of the country, and I can count on one hand (and have a few fingers left) the number of people I know who have re-homed a dog because they didn't work out as an agility or obedience dog. While there are some "big name" handlers out there who only want the most competitive dog, I believe they are in the minority. Most folks I have met who decided to get a faster dog simply ran two dogs, and if their dog developed a structural problem that kept the dog from performing they simply became beloved pets.

 

I know that some people will re-home a sheepdog if it "doesn't make the cut" because I live with one! I'm not sure why re-homing a dog who turns out to be a poor sheepdog is somehow better?

 

I realize the culture here is a little "pro-sheepdog" and "anti-sports" but I am a little alarmed by the constant "sports people go through dogs like water" sentiments.

 

2. I don't see an issue with Border Jacks and Border Staffies...initially I did like many of you, then I met several and found they were lovely dogs not over-the-top at all. They are in fact created to fill a function which is to be excellent flyball dogs. How is this different than breeding a sheepdog for a function of being a great sheepdog?

 

A friend who does Aussie Rescue and does a lot of fly ball tried on two separate occasions to find a Border Jack type in a shelter but there were not any in the shelters here in the Portland Area. Saying you can find a mix at the shelter doesn't really work...there's a level of drive and train-ablilty that many mixes at the shelter just don't have, and in many areas the vast majority of shelter dogs are a certain type (pit mixes, lab mixes, hound mixes). Can you pick up a Border Collie mix at the shelter and expect him to excel at a trial?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have 2 points:

 

1. I keep reading here how people will "get rid of" agility dogs who "don't make the cut." I have read several threads where this is mentioned as happening "all the time."

 

I have been involved in obedience and agility for almost 20 years, living in 5 different states/areas of the country, and I can count on one hand (and have a few fingers left) the number of people I know who have re-homed a dog because they didn't work out as an agility or obedience dog. While there are some "big name" handlers out there who only want the most competitive dog, I believe they are in the minority. Most folks I have met who decided to get a faster dog simply ran two dogs, and if their dog developed a structural problem that kept the dog from performing they simply became beloved pets.

 

I know that some people will re-home a sheepdog if it "doesn't make the cut" because I live with one! I'm not sure why re-homing a dog who turns out to be a poor sheepdog is somehow better?

 

I realize the culture here is a little "pro-sheepdog" and "anti-sports" but I am a little alarmed by the constant "sports people go through dogs like water" sentiments.

 

What threads are you talking about? One person said that in this thread and the rest of those responding said they didn't believe that to be the case. I sure don't see how you interpret that to be a common belief here.

 

And the atmosphere is only "anti breeding for sport" not "anti sport" :rolleyes:

 

2. I don't see an issue with Border Jacks and Border Staffies...initially I did like many of you, then I met several and found they were lovely dogs not over-the-top at all. They are in fact created to fill a function which is to be excellent flyball dogs. How is this different than breeding a sheepdog for a function of being a great sheepdog?

 

Working border collies are unique in their ability in the dog world. There are just a couple other breeds that can do what they do. There are many, many breeds and mixes that can make good sport dogs.

 

The function of sport dogs is recreation, the function of sheep dogs is an invaluable tool to help the shepherd take care of the sheep. You can make a case that trials are just another sport, and they are in many ways. But day to day work on a farm or ranch is a lively hood and necessity, much different than a sport.

 

I'm sure sport bred mixes do make great dogs and loving pets for many people. But I still don't understand specifically breeding them when many, many dogs with great sport potential are euthanized every year in this county.

 

A friend who does Aussie Rescue and does a lot of fly ball tried on two separate occasions to find a Border Jack type in a shelter but there were not any in the shelters here in the Portland Area. Saying you can find a mix at the shelter doesn't really work...there's a level of drive and train-ablilty that many mixes at the shelter just don't have, and in many areas the vast majority of shelter dogs are a certain type (pit mixes, lab mixes, hound mixes). Can you pick up a Border Collie mix at the shelter and expect him to excel at a trial?

 

Umm, you can look beyond your area. Or with other rescues. I wanted a Border Collie to do SAR work with and had a pretty specific set of criteria. I waited and looked and eventually found one 3 hours away from me. People very commonly look outside their area when trying to find a specific type of dog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know a few border/staffies and the one thing you hear about them - they have an offswitch. The ones I know about all seem to be cuddle bunnies at home and then become crazy maniacs on the race lanes.

 

My working bred Border Collie has an off-switch, but he's definitely more high energy and demanding than my pit bull. She's just the laziest dog ever in the house (and a huge cuddle bug). However, get the two of them going outside and they can run forever. She can almost keep up with him running, too. I didn't think she'd be able to, because she has a really lumbering walk.

 

As I write this, I have the cat next to me sleeping and a sleeping dog on each side of my feet.

 

They also learned an important lesson tonight. Do not throw a kong onto a sleeping cat expecting him to play. He will wake up and not let you have the kong back. 10lb cat vs. about 110lbs worth of combined dog. Cat wins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They also learned an important lesson tonight. Do not throw a kong onto a sleeping cat expecting him to play. He will wake up and not let you have the kong back. 10lb cat vs. about 110lbs worth of combined dog. Cat wins.

 

:rolleyes::D :D :D :D :D :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What threads are you talking about? One person said that in this thread and the rest of those responding said they didn't believe that to be the case. I sure don't see how you interpret that to be a common belief here.

 

I have spent a lot of time reading old posts, particularly in the Politics and Culture thread and have seen it said several times by several people.

 

And the atmosphere is only "anti breeding for sport" not "anti sport" :rolleyes:

 

well, notice I said "a little." :D

 

Working border collies are unique in their ability in the dog world. There are just a couple other breeds that can do what they do. There are many, many breeds and mixes that can make good sport dogs.

 

But the Border Collies are the best...seriously! Have you ever watched a high level obedience, agility or flyball match? What is the % of Border Collies?

 

The function of sport dogs is recreation, the function of sheep dogs is an invaluable tool to help the shepherd take care of the sheep. You can make a case that trials are just another sport, and they are in many ways. But day to day work on a farm or ranch is a lively hood and necessity, much different than a sport.

 

 

I'm sure sport bred mixes do make great dogs and loving pets for many people. But I still don't understand specifically breeding them when many, many dogs with great sport potential are euthanized every year in this county.

 

 

So you are saying that breeding a dog for performance is a bad choice because there are dogs in rescue and shelters and performance is not as important as a stock dog? Is breeding a pure bred dog bad as well in your opinion, or only deliberately cross bred dogs?

 

I'm not being antagonistic, I am genuinely interested in your POV. I may not agree with it but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in it. :D

 

FWIW: I own 3 dogs at the moment, all three are of the "gently used" variety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...