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Guest echoica

I have to rant...

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Guest echoica

I am so CRANKY about how my brother and his wife treat dogs. Alpha rolls and hitting them with sticks when they misbehave. And much more than that but I am not going to shock you with the list of ridiculous things they do to their dogs - and other's dogs when given the chance. They are huge on dominance theory, punishment and the Dog Whisperer (of course). Their trainer they use is known among the dog community here as very harsh and he recommends prong collars above all else and all the other punishment based junk most people would die if they ever witnessed. doG!!! What the...?

 

The thing that gets me the most is that I explicitly said today...please do not alpha roll Rikku because it is not appropriate for the training methods I use (she is 6 months old). She was playing when he grabbed her for dog's sakes. So, my brother forcibly holds her upside down on her back saying 'Show us your belly'.

 

It has been proven through research that dogs (nor wolves for that matter) do NOT FORCIBLY roll one another (like the debunked 1940s study that started this mess suggested). It is OFFERED. And dogs that do so are considered UNSTABLE pack members.

 

*sigh*

 

Then his wife chimes in that it is a 'necessary' thing for a puppy to maintain/create your leadership position with the pup. Otherwise you do 'not have control' over your dog.

 

*gag*

 

I said, 'I have control over my dogs'. 'They are very good dogs'. Which they are btw. And I can't emphasize the very enough because I have awesome dogs. And she says...well 'Casey doesn't come when called'...so 'No, you don't have control'. And then stomps inside the house avoiding my potential intellectual onslaught...which would have never came anyway because I just can't be bothered.

 

So ummm, there is apparently a direct cause and effect relationship between alpha rolling your dog and recall ability. WHAT?!!! Let me say that again, WHATTTTTT?!

 

Meanwhile, Rikku is flipping out in my brother's arms clearly fearing for her life.

 

And as far as Casey's recall ability goes...some dogs just find hunting squirrels and birds way more interesting regardless of the amount of time and training put into the recall (he has greyhound in him btw) - and believe me - I have definitely put A LOT into this. And through various approaches as well. And it's not like he doesn't ever come when called. GRRRRRRR.

 

Fantastic.

 

And how dare they criticize my approach with my incredibly friendly dogs that are very joyful and biddable. When they have 1 border collie (not a working dog) who attacks other dogs and is scared to death of any affection. And 1 golden retriever that barks incessantly in your face. And another golden retriever that sleeps all the time in a coma of depression. AND they all have run off on them at times too. So, that debunks her theory right there because I know they alpha their dogs all the time and they STILL take off. I feel the worst for that border collie because it has some serious, serious issues. You know it's bad when you say her name in a friendly non-threatening tone and she cowers towards you. She has no interest in anything but her obsession with chasing things. And let's talk about control...yeah, their dogs won't even sit or down without being forcibly manipulated into position anymore. Yeah, you have great control.

 

WHAT. EVER.

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Poor Rikku!!!! Yea I would have forcibly removed your brother's hands the moment he attempted to roll my dog had I been in that situation. No explaining, no trying to educate, just "GET YOUR &%^%$^% HANDS OFF MY DOG!". Sounds like Rikku should stay home when you visit from now on.....

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Is there any way you can avoid having your brother and your dogs in the same place at the same time? If he's not going to listen to your concerns or respect your wishes then he shouldn't be allowed near them.

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Agreed ^^^ I wouldn't put up with someone doing that to my dogs.

 

My brother rolls and dominates their lab. The poor dog is so confused and frantic to please sometimes. Sometimes SIL mentions that he just doesn't know how to play - yup, that's because he's so worried about doing something wrong. :rolleyes: sigh. Thankfully the rest of the family doesn't subscribe to the same theories

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Guest echoica

I need to be assertive about it - I kind of passively ask for him to respect my wishes. So that doesn't help. And his wife is very 'dominant' and thinks she knows everything there is to know about dogs - but it is a very narrow approach she has adopted.

 

Ultimately, I need to stand up for myself a little bit stronger. I can tell he has cracked recently a bit when I told him to be lighter with Casey - he used to be very punishing towards him as well - but I explained how much work I have done trying to alleviate his fear and timidity and how being hard on him for stupid things ruins all of that - and he seemed to have got that (but his wife wasn't around either).

 

Discontinuing their play dates together - his dogs and mine - is really unfair to the dogs. They all adore one another and play well and it is one of the few places I have to let my dogs run off leash in a fenced-in area. When I weigh the pros and cons, the pros are more lucrative.

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People have different training methods and it is not worth trying to convince them to change most of the time. If the problem ever rises again, I would probably hit your brother with a stick, roll him over and say Show Me Your &^*&^. If anything is ever said - tell them you do not appreciate them forcing their training methods on you or your dogs as you don't force your methods on them (that is if you don't).

 

Sorry Rikku

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Guest echoica
People have different training methods and it is not worth trying to convince them to change most of the time. If the problem ever rises again, I would probably hit your brother with a stick, roll him over and say Show Me Your &^*&^. If anything is ever said - tell them you do not appreciate them forcing their training methods on you or your dogs as you don't force your methods on them (that is if you don't).

 

Sorry Rikku

 

HA! That made me laugh...he is a lot bigger than me so that would be quite the task :rolleyes:

 

I will say this next time. Clear and concisely.

 

I don't talk about my training methods at all to them because I know they are so far on the other side of it. Yet, they go on about their ideas and criticize everyone else all the time. But I am sure they know where I stand (I post articles I am interested in and rant in notes on FB all the time about various dog-related topics) and they probably think I am the fluffy clicker girl. The funny thing is...they are all for me teaching their dogs tricks. Clearly, they must see how rewarding it is for the dogs to be treated with respect and to learn in a fun, new way. As opposed to being yelled at and forced into submission all the time - I can't even think of a time where they have praised their dogs for anything really.

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Guest echoica

As a side, a lot of you here would have a coronary if I told you some of the crazy crap they believe about border collies and how they tell everyone these things and blame the breed for how their own has turned out!

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That is really too bad. I can't stand it when people I know "train" their dogs with those methods. And I frequently bite my tongue when talking with colleges etc. but there is no way any single member of my family would do that do one of my dogs. Even my dad, who grew up with the old school methods, is respectful of my training views and would not ever discipline one of my animals. In my opinion, it's a lack of respect for you. I would, flat out tell him that he will not do that to your dog again. End of story.

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That is really too bad. I can't stand it when people I know "train" their dogs with those methods. And I frequently bite my tongue when talking with colleges etc. but there is no way any single member of my family would do that do one of my dogs. Even my dad, who grew up with the old school methods, is respectful of my training views and would not ever discipline one of my animals. In my opinion, it's a lack of respect for you. I would, flat out tell him that he will not do that to your dog again. End of story.

 

Hear, hear!

 

I had a landlady with an out-of-control Vizsla once. She would have been right at home with your brother. One time she went away and left the dog with me for three weeks. I thought I would see what I could accomplish with him in that time. When she returned, I put him through his paces - sit, down, stay, don't charge out the door when it's opened. She was impressed, but it didn't have quite the effect I was hoping for. She asked me to move. And since I had a month-to-month rental contract, I had no choice but to comply. I don't help people with their training problems anymore - unless asked to. But I'd flatten anyone foolish enough to manhandle my dog.

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Guest echoica
That is really too bad. I can't stand it when people I know "train" their dogs with those methods. And I frequently bite my tongue when talking with colleges etc. but there is no way any single member of my family would do that do one of my dogs. Even my dad, who grew up with the old school methods, is respectful of my training views and would not ever discipline one of my animals. In my opinion, it's a lack of respect for you. I would, flat out tell him that he will not do that to your dog again. End of story.

 

OMG light bulb! Thank you...I never thought of it that way. But you are so right! It is a lack of respect. How horrible that is now that I think about it... :/ doG, my family drives me insane sometimes.

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Yeah.... I feel your pain.

 

We have a new trainer I have to work with who's a big Milan fan. I've been working as a trainer for over 5 years now and have been bitten once (the owner popped the prong when his dog growled at me as he was told to do by another trainer in my area...cuz everyone knows you have to "teach" the dog that's unacceptable :rolleyes::D ). This new trainer has been teaching for 8 months now and has been bitten at least once a month while rolling a dog. Her own dog is neurotic, aggressive toward certain other dogs, and has severe SA. She has to bark the commands to get her 1 1/2 year old lab to listen.

 

KZ is 9 months. I can whisper a command from across the room and she's eager to do it, get released, and go on to the next fun thing I ask of her. I've got my pup where she's performing off lead with reliability and we're increasing precision. KZ will listen to all of our associates except this new trainer. I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with the her training methods, not being able to read canine body language, and not understanding the canine psyche.

 

Go figure.

 

However, I finally got my mom, former die hard Milan fan, to try things my way :D All the dogs are listening to her much better. Baby steps...

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You have some choices - it's either "keep your hands off my dog" and make sure that happens; find another, better place to take your dog; or put up and shut up. For your dog's sake, I hope you choose the first or second choice. You are your dog's advocate and it's your responsibility.

 

I can't agree with you here, considering how they behave towards your dog.

 

Discontinuing their play dates together - his dogs and mine - is really unfair to the dogs. They all adore one another and play well and it is one of the few places I have to let my dogs run off leash in a fenced-in area. When I weigh the pros and cons, the pros are more lucrative.

 

Best wishes!

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Dear Doggers,

 

If you cannot/will not protect your dog, you are not its pack leader and cannot train it effectively whatever training methods you espouse.

 

Donald McCaig

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Guest echoica
You have some choices - it's either "keep your hands off my dog" and make sure that happens; find another, better place to take your dog; or put up and shut up. For your dog's sake, I hope you choose the first or second choice. You are your dog's advocate and it's your responsibility.

 

I can't agree with you here, considering how they behave towards your dog.

Best wishes!

 

I will stand up for myself next time better. It's not so cut and dry with family, you know? If it was anyone else I wouldn't hesitate...I do advocate for my dogs and protect them. It's not like my brother is hitting them (although they have used the stick on their own dogs). He has tried this 'show me your belly' move on the puppy like 3 times now and he mostly yells at Casey for the stupidest reasons. A few times he pushed Casey away misinterpreting Casey's stance as a dominating behaviour when he really was looking for cuddles. I was thinking about it all last night and I think I will write him an email...that way I don't have to listen to his hard-headed wife who fills his head with all these ideas in the first place.

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Guest echoica

Ok, so for anyone interested. I just wrote an email to my brother...I think it makes the point without coming off mean:

 

I have to write you an email away from [name] because she is a little thick-headed when it comes to dog stuff. She was rather rude to me with her comments yesterday about my APPARENT lack of control over my dogs. And I have to get this off my chest because it is really bothering me and hurt my feelings. When you guys don't listen to me about the way I WANT my dogs treated around you, it is a lack of respect for ME. I have really good dogs that are VERY well trained, socialized and friendly. So what if Casey has poor recall?...it's not like your dogs never run off on you. I never tell you what to do with your dogs unless you ask for my opinion or bring these topics up and expect that you do the same. 'Alpha rolling' the puppy or any other physical contact with my dogs is absolutely unecessary and not allowed - They never have done anything to warrant it. A lot of the time I feel you totally misread my dogs behaviours as dominance when it is the farthest thing from it - especially with Casey who is an extremely fearful and submissive dog 95% of the time. I hope you can RESPECT this when I visit and realize that just because the methods of control, obedience and discipline that I use for my dogs is different from yours does NOT make me soft. I have a very good bond with my dogs because of the positive methods I use and the lack of punishment I employ. I feel really bad about having to write this email and I worry that you will be put off that I am insulting you when I am only trying to assert my wishes for respect...but it has to be said because Casey and Rikku are MY dogs and I have to advocate for them and apply consistency in their training regardless if you agree with it or not...and I cannot bring my dogs out to play anymore if you cannot respect this request. Which would be a very unfortunate disservice to all the dogs because they enjoy playing together so much. Sincerely...please understand.

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I will stand up for myself next time better. It's not so cut and dry with family, you know?

 

I know. Sometimes it has to be done, though.

 

It was my Dad's custom to whack our family dog on the head with a rolled up newspaper when he was "bad". All it taught the dog was to cringe when you held your hand over his head. We were fortunate he put up with it.

 

He went to do that to Speedy when he was a puppy, and I had to be very firm. It took one phrase said firmly, "This is MY dog." He got the message.

 

It's not that I convinced him that whacking a dog with a newspaper is inappropriate, but that he could understand that I had the right to make choices for my own dog. He was able to respect that, even if he didn't really understand why I wasn't going to allow it.

 

Nobody punishes my dogs. Unless it is a matter of life and death, nobody lays a hand on one of my dogs unless it is to show affection or provide medical care - family or not.

 

Aside from that one time with my father, I have only had to make that clear to one other person one other time. In both cases, I was understood very clearly.

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Hear, hear!

 

I had a landlady with an out-of-control Vizsla once. She would have been right at home with your brother. One time she went away and left the dog with me for three weeks. I thought I would see what I could accomplish with him in that time. When she returned, I put him through his paces - sit, down, stay, don't charge out the door when it's opened. She was impressed, but it didn't have quite the effect I was hoping for. She asked me to move. And since I had a month-to-month rental contract, I had no choice but to comply. I don't help people with their training problems anymore - unless asked to. But I'd flatten anyone foolish enough to manhandle my dog.

 

Even though I wouldn't agree with her training methods. I can totally understand why she did that. I'd be pretty ticked if I came home and someone had decided to train my dogs in methods I didn't approve of while I was gone.

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Ok, so for anyone interested. I just wrote an email to my brother...I think it makes the point without coming off mean:

 

I have to write you an email away from [name] because she is a little thick-headed when it comes to dog stuff. She was rather rude to me with her comments yesterday about my APPARENT lack of control over my dogs. And I have to get this off my chest because it is really bothering me and hurt my feelings. When you guys don't listen to me about the way I WANT my dogs treated around you, it is a lack of respect for ME. I have really good dogs that are VERY well trained, socialized and friendly. So what if Casey has poor recall?...it's not like your dogs never run off on you. I never tell you what to do with your dogs unless you ask for my opinion or bring these topics up and expect that you do the same. 'Alpha rolling' the puppy or any other physical contact with my dogs is absolutely unecessary and not allowed - They never have done anything to warrant it. A lot of the time I feel you totally misread my dogs behaviours as dominance when it is the farthest thing from it - especially with Casey who is an extremely fearful and submissive dog 95% of the time. I hope you can RESPECT this when I visit and realize that just because the methods of control, obedience and discipline that I use for my dogs is different from yours does NOT make me soft. I have a very good bond with my dogs because of the positive methods I use and the lack of punishment I employ. I feel really bad about having to write this email and I worry that you will be put off that I am insulting you when I am only trying to assert my wishes for respect...but it has to be said because Casey and Rikku are MY dogs and I have to advocate for them and apply consistency in their training regardless if you agree with it or not...and I cannot bring my dogs out to play anymore if you cannot respect this request. Which would be a very unfortunate disservice to all the dogs because they enjoy playing together so much. Sincerely...please understand.

 

Good for you. I hope he can understand and respect your wishes. I'd hate for you to have a fall out over that. Personally, if my brother couldn't do that for me, he wouldn't be allowed near my dogs.

 

And I totally agree with Donald McCaig, if your dogs can't trust you to keep them safe, you aren't their "pack leader". Especially with your timid dog. If he can't trust you to keep scary things from happening, your bond could suffer dramatically.

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Guest echoica
Good for you. I hope he can understand and respect your wishes. I'd hate for you to have a fall out over that. Personally, if my brother couldn't do that for me, he wouldn't be allowed near my dogs.

 

And I totally agree with Donald McCaig, if your dogs can't trust you to keep them safe, you aren't their "pack leader". Especially with your timid dog. If he can't trust you to keep scary things from happening, your bond could suffer dramatically.

 

Oh, I'm sure it will. If he lets his wife read it, then she'll be all like...'She doesn't have to come out then...who cares'. But...unless they want to pay boarding fees for 3 dogs in May when they go on vacation - I am supposed to dog sit for over a week - then I am sure they will come to their senses quickly :rolleyes:

 

I am much more anal when it comes to Casey because of his insecurity. I have spoken up where it concerned him and it worked for the most part - although they still yell at him. I was kind of letting it slide with Rikku because she is much more confident...but clearly that was a bad idea...because they seemed to have taken advantage of that.

 

And this might just be a coincidence...but ever since that whole unnecessary alpha roll scene yesterday...Rikku has been acting very reactive towards men today. Barking with her hackles up *sigh*

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It's confusing when it's family, I'm glad you wrote the email. You're doing the right thing. Stand by your guns!

 

Tim

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Even though I wouldn't agree with her training methods. I can totally understand why she did that. I'd be pretty ticked if I came home and someone had decided to train my dogs in methods I didn't approve of while I was gone.

 

 

Hmmmmmm. Yeah, I can see your point. But he had bitten her in the face twice, and charged the neighbor's kids once. Oh, and he had also had three emergency surgeries for swallowing panty-hose. I could hear her charging around upstairs yelling, "Cooper! Drop!" each time. The dog was a mess, and I felt sorry for him... The fourth pair of panty-hose killed him because the new pet-sitter didn't see him eat them.

 

She didn't actually disapprove of my training methods. She was just mad because the dog did what I asked him too. She didn't throw me out for another month or so after she came back from her trip. She asked me to help her on several occasions when Cooper was charging around with lingerie in his mouth. All I has to do was say, "Cooper, drop" in a conversational tone of voice and he would spit out whatever was in his mouth like it was burning his tongue. I came upstairs once to find her crawling toward him on her hands and knees. He was denned up under a table with a pair of undies in his mouth, growling like a thunderstorm. I called him and he came to me, (panties and all) and I told my landlady that she had very likely come close to being bitten. She didn't believe me and got very cranky. She was bitten in the face three days later.

 

This dog was a field-trial champion and a breed-ring champion. But she did not train or handle him to either title. She paid other people. At home she set no boundaries and/or came down hard on him. It cost him his life. Waste of a good dog.

 

She didn't pitch me out because of the way I trained her dog. She pitched me out because I was a constant reminder that "everybody" could handle her dog better than she could. It pissed her off, but not enough to mend her ways.

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Guest echoica

**UPDATE**

 

I heard from my brother after he read the email. He apologized and said he would never do that stuff to my dogs again. He didn't realize that it bothered me THIS much and he said he respects that we have different training methods...so he won't force his on mine.

 

:D

 

So, I guess the play-dates can go on for now.

 

And I really want to thank you all for your comments. It really meant a lot and helped me considerably in getting enough courage to stand up for myself and my dogs. This whole thing was very stressful for me - I guess I am kind of sensitive and care a little too much about what other people think :rolleyes:

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This whole thing was very stressful for me - I guess I am kind of sensitive and care a little too much about what other people think :rolleyes:

 

 

This is why we have dogs.

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