Novice obedience class

[mum24dog]

Pam, how exactly did not not understand what was going on with Maggiedog? I was trying to help sudjest she target her dog in a way to better position the dog, she was not in correct heel position! Nothing I was sudjesting to her was corrective-based!

 

She knew she wasn't in the correct position and it didn't matter because she was shaping the behaviour. Your approach was to advise her to get it right from the start, which isn't necessary with the method she was using. One reason why I don't go to formal obedience classes - I can't be bothered to keep trying to explain to people who don't understand why mistakes don't necessarily matter when teaching a behaviour and I'm not going to change the whole basis of my training to keep the peace.

 

did you even read my last post to you?

 

Yes, and I went back over your previous posts to see whether they were consistent with what you were saying.

I was almost convinced that there was little difference between our attitudes until I did that.

 

Going back to the subject of heelwork - I've been trawling YouTube for clips of what would seem to be good quality US style and all I can find is videos of dogs working way off the leg. AFAIK your rules are the same as ours that a consistent distance is allowed but in practice here you would be unlikely to get away with it. I actually have two dogs that would prefer to work like that, two that don't and a JRT who doesn't count. Can you put up any links to examples of what would get good marks there please so I can compare styles? Personally I squirm to see the way it is often done here - I get a sore neck just watching.

 

Pam

[shysheperdess]

As I said before, I came on this chat to give someone interested in learning competition style heel work(for obedience, never said anything about freestyle) because I have experience in training this succesfully from my years competing. I didn't intend to get into a debate really about different training techniques because honestly, this could go on forever and when it comes right down to it we will just have to agree to disagree. I am promoting the methods that(in my experience training and competing and by working IN a training facility with other competitors, and by knowing many succesful competitors) work! This is valuable info that has taken me years of trials and tribulations, ups and downs to figure out!So I was just trying to help someone getting started be succesful if that's what they want, they can take it or leave it. You have to understand my frustrations to an extent when someone comes on sudjesting techniques that they haven't even tested themselves in a competitive obedience ring! Which anybody know, the different behaviors taught in dog sports ARE very different!!!

 

The way I train ALSO brings out the best in my dogs and that is apparent in the success we have as a competitive team and our strong bond at home. I do put my heart and soul as well into working my dogs and anyone who know me knows that.

 

How convenient that you don't want to compete in obedience RB. You have spent the last couple pages explaining why your methoids of teaching sustained heeling should be taken seriously and can be applied to a competitive obedience situation. I just find it amusing that most of the people who have participated in this thread and have gone against my method of using a collar tug have never really competed in obedience. That's why I wish they had an "ask and expert" section for people asking questions about the specific sport who would get advice from experienced competitors. I would never be as bold to say that I would be qualified to instruct someone on freestyle!!!

 

 

A very well respected trainer in this country who competes at the top of the Agility, obedience and herding circuit (she just got her MACH and therefore her triple championship on her bc) that someone intersted in competing needs to find an instructor who is not only knowledgable and obtained success competing in these venues with there dogs(meaning at least an OTCH, MACH or HC) but who has the gift of passing this on to there students. I would strongly urge anyone intersted in competing in this wonderful venue to seek out an instructor who meets these qualifications and who implores the methods you are comfortable with, or in my case take private lessons and work on your own.

 

RB and PAm said that there are no limits to what you can do? well apparently there are, and it starts with a simple Novice Obedience ring.

 

Like Journey I put my hands up long ago.....waving my white flag! To each there own!!!

[shysheperdess]

Pam, maggiedog didn't really know where correct heel position, she exclaimed that she thought it was right at the shoulder and when I explained that ideal heel position is idealy with the dogs ear at the seem of your pants she was surprised. I also asked her if she was in the beginning stages of training or not, then the way she was working her dog made more sense and I could understand why she was maybe training the way she was. I don't expect the dog to BE in correct heel postion right from the start but I reward at correct heel position right from the start.

 

I'll try to find a good heeling clip My current dog actually doesn't really heel "head up". It's uncomfortable for him..

[mum24dog]

RB and PAm said that there are no limits to what you can do? well apparently there are, and it starts with a simple Novice Obedience ring.

 

Who said that?

 

Kristine said she didn't think it would benefit the dog she has now, which she has said many times in various threads has major and multiple fear issues. She also said that she would like to try it in the future if she had a dog that was up for it but I guess she isn't going to go out any day soon and get another dog just so she can.

 

Realistically I only have my daughter's BC to work with atm. He hates strange dogs and whether or not I compete with him depends on my commitment to resolving his issues to make him safe to leave in a stay with dogs he doesn't know, not on whether I can train him to a sufficiently high standard in the other exercises because I know I can do that.

 

Whether I can learn to walk in a straight line without wobbling is another matter.

 

I just find it amusing that most of the people who have participated in this thread and have gone against my method of using a collar tug have never really competed in obedience.

 

I have and I've experienced the way it demotivated my dog. I have also known people who created dogs that couldn't work without correction. Even if I were inclined to use collar corrections I wouldn't risk it again. I'm not claiming it is inevitable that it will flatten a dog, just that it can. I've learned other ways of getting the result I want.

 

I've made every mistake under the sun over the years, including creating a dog that is over dependent on lures. There are mistakes I'll make sure I'll never make again, but I know I'll make different ones. I know where to find help and I know when help is needed. Heck - I've even been known to ask advice from a couple of people I wouldn't let anywhere near my dog because they could help on something specific.

 

You have to understand my frustrations to an extent when someone comes on sudjesting techniques that they haven't even tested themselves in a competitive obedience ring!

 

Yes I can, but as Kristine has repeatedly said, training methods are training methods whatever is being taught, and I can also understand her frustration that you do not seem to understand what she is saying.

 

You say that you accept that there are people who have achieved success while not doing as you do and I have given you a couple of examples from here. I don't know what the big deal is with what Kristine has said. There's nothing magical about competitive obedience that sets it apart - it takes exactly the same as any other activity to get to the top - the right dog, the right handler, dedication, patience and consistency.

 

Pam

[shysheperdess]

Pam, I don't know how to put the vid on here? On utube type in heeling, reason. The video is kinda far away she has 2, one of Reason heeling and one of her HIT run at a big time obedience competition. This is an amazing team, and the dog is a wonder to watch heel!!!!

[mum24dog]

Pam, I don't know how to put the vid on here? On utube type in heeling, reason. The video is kinda far away she has 2, one of Reason heeling and one of her HIT run at a big time obedience competition. This is an amazing team, and the dog is a wonder to watch heel!!!!

 

You've got me on technical terms.

 

If you get the clip up on your screen at the top there will be the You Tube details for that clip. Just copy those details and paste them into your reply on here.

 

Pam

[shysheperdess]

OK, I THINK I did it?...... LOL!!

 

People think since I am young I should automaticly know how to use computers!!! I don't!!!!

 

[mum24dog]

Pam, maggiedog didn't really know where correct heel position, she exclaimed that she thought it was right at the shoulder and when I explained that ideal heel position is idealy with the dogs ear at the seem of your pants she was surprised.

 

She wasn't wrong according to the rules though, was she?

Our rules are the same and I'd worked out for myself that further back could better for a dog that is inclined to forge but for a dog that has a tendency to lag by the shoulder could be better.

From the early signs of MaggieDog's training I think you would probably be right in your suggestion as to what position would be best.

Having said that, I know a handler with an Ob Ch who trains her dogs with a light shoulder touch to the leg, and another who teaches foot contact.

 

Pam

[shysheperdess]

OK, here is the one where she is competing at the trial she won. I love watching them!!!

 

[shysheperdess]

Pam, wow a foot touch, I would be intersted in hearing about that! I don't mind rubbing on my leg a little! I love a dog that is enthusiastic and when learning I find they so badly want to be right so they will hug your leg a little, but as they gain more confidence that usually lessens a little

 

I did tell Maggiedog that I LOVED her little dogs enthusiasm!!! Great little dog, nice start and nice heeling style. I guess I just commented on her forging because I have STRUGGLED with forging with my guys!!! So I know that if you don't insist on a further back postition it will be something that you struggle with over and over!!! That was the main reason I told her aboue that and hope I didn't come off wrong to her. I can be a little....blunt

[Root Beer]

How convenient that you don't want to compete in obedience RB.

 

Just as convenient as the fact that Rally is somehow too far beneath your dogs for you to bother to find out how challenging it really is to earn one's way to "the top", and you can't try Freestyle to find out how difficult that is because you don't dance.

 

I'm not saying you should do either of those things. Simply that my lack of interest in obedience is no different from your lack of interest in those sports.

 

Yet, you think you are qualified to say that skills that dogs in those sports cannot transfer into competitive obedience. You don't know that.

 

You have spent the last couple pages explaining why your methoids of teaching sustained heeling should be taken seriously and can be applied to a competitive obedience situation. I just find it amusing that most of the people who have participated in this thread and have gone against my method of using a collar tug have never really competed in obedience. That's why I wish they had an "ask and expert" section for people asking questions about the specific sport who would get advice from experienced competitors. I would never be as bold to say that I would be qualified to instruct someone on freestyle!!!

 

Well, you already seem to have proclaimed yourself an expert, so those who listen only to "expert" advice from "top trainers" know where to go. You don't really need a separate section for that.

 

Those who want to take all of their options into consideration have the benefit of hearing different perspectives, and can make their own choices based on their goals and what they feel is best for their dogs.

 

It's really OK for people to hear different options and make their own choices for their dogs.

 

RB and PAm said that there are no limits to what you can do? well apparently there are, and it starts with a simple Novice Obedience ring.

 

You illustrated Pam's point nicely there. I don't see training challenges aren't limitations. They are opportunities.

 

Like Journey I put my hands up long ago.....waving my white flag! To each there own!!!

 

Yes, to each their own. That's why I am very glad that we have options. We don't all have to do things in exactly one way.

[shysheperdess]

Fair enough RB, I really do wish you luck. I read you posts often and admire your determination, creativity, and dedication. You obviously love your dogs dearly and who can ask for more than that.

 

And for the record, when I was sudjesting an "ask the expert" part I didn't mean me I would be asking competition-related questions to!!!! We all have something to learn from eachother!!!

[mum24dog]

Pam, wow a foot touch, I would be intersted in hearing about that! I don't mind rubbing on my leg a little! I love a dog that is enthusiastic and when learning I find they so badly want to be right so they will hug your leg a little, but as they gain more confidence that usually lessens a little

 

Can't help you I'm afraid. It's a trademark of Jo Hill but I haven't come across much info on it. Her training days are always too far away.

 

Thanks for the clips. US style really is much looser than ours. That's more what you'd get in Working Trials here. I actually think it's harder to train a dog to work to a consistent distance off the leg as it has no physical point of contact for information.

 

If you compare the Mary Ray clip at the bottom of page 3 of this thread you'll see how different it is, and not just the format.

 

You don't have to do nearly 5 mins heelwork in Novice, thank goodness.

 

This is Novice level here -

 

 

Comparing other vids the way we do it here is the European style, not just UK.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

Who said that?

 

Kristine said she didn't think it would benefit the dog she has now, which she has said many times in various threads has major and multiple fear issues. She also said that she would like to try it in the future if she had a dog that was up for it but I guess she isn't going to go out any day soon and get another dog just so she can.

 

Pam is correct. The dogs that I have now are not suited to such a rigid sport. Speedy has serious mental issues (possibly some minor brain damage - seriously, not figuratively) and has struggled with stimulation and fear issues his entire life. If I may take my turn to brag, he has accomplished things that no dog like him should have been able to. We have struggled, but I have never given up on him and he has given me his entire heart. To me there is no greater accomplishment in all of dog training.

 

Let me make it clear that the training that Speedy has required has taken far more work than it takes to train a "normal" dog. And I did it as a newbie who came into it knowing nothing. We learned together. He has been an amazing teacher. His brain isn't quite all there, but his heart is whole, and that has made it possible.

 

Maddie is a mix (with some subborn Lab in her) who was mostly likely treated very roughly by her original owners. She is super soft. Speaking of phenomenal trainers, our Agility instructor (who has MACH's, so you would consider her properly credentialed) is the only person in the world who could have helped me make an Agility dog of her. Her biggest piece of teaching for us - NEVER correct her under ANY circumstances. I never have. She has accomplished more than a dog like her should have been able to accomplish. No, she will never set the Agility world on fire. But she has come so far from being a throwaway dog with a broken heart. Agility was a big part in making that happen.

 

Dean was supposed to be my bulletproof competition dog. Well, he has severe noise phobia. He would be a phenomenal obedience dog. His heeling is precise, enthusiastic, and focused. But he would not be able to take part in competition obedience because of the unpredictable noises. He loves Rally - he's AMAZING at it - and we can compete because I can take him to competitions where he is the only dog in the ring. He has what it takes to get all the way through if we work very hard to get there! If not for the noise phobia, he would have what it takes to try competition obedience - but that's completely beyond my control and it is what it is. And no, correction would not "fix" his noise phobia. It's not a voluntary thing on his part. It is a very sad disability for an extremely bright and talented dog. But I accept him 100% for who he is and we do sports to benefit him. His Rally title means more to me than any OTCh ever could with a "normal" dog!

 

Whether you really understand or not, I've been forced to learn some things about training - in the face of stress and distraction - that many people in competition obedience have not had to go near. And based on what I know, most of those people would not put the time and effort that I've put into these dogs.

 

I have HAD to learn how to train without corrections because training with correction would be completely inappropriate for these dogs. And if they - with all of their limitations - can learn through reinforcement . . . so can a dog whose brain cells are operating properly! I would never sell a normal dog short and think that he or she was less capable of learning through reinforcement than dogs who have challenges! (I'm NOT saying that you sell your dog short, but that I would if I were to resort to correction in training).

 

To me, doing right by the dogs that I have is the most important thing there is. I don't choose their activities based on prestige or what I want (and that is utterly heartbreaking at times), but on what is best for them. It's hard sometimes, but I don't regret it. They reward me for it over and over and over.

 

And I've learned quite a bit. I'd rather have gone through the school of hard knocks that these dogs have thrown me into than be a "top trainer" in any sport.

 

Fair enough RB, I really do wish you luck. I read you posts often and admire your determination, creativity, and dedication. You obviously love your dogs dearly and who can ask for more than that.

 

Thank you! And I'd love to have that side by side comparison of our heelwork training technique that we talked about, after my competition in March. If it helps to frame it as a comparison of techniques coming from two different sports, we can frame it that way. It would be fun for people to be able to see the steps, and see what the results of each look like.

[shysheperdess]

Wow RB, my hats are off to you and your work with your dogs. I can understand your perspecitve better now! I to have a noise phobic little bc who was abused, I would NEVER correct her!!! Her owner had a heavy hand with her and it has ruined her, after a year with me she is finally starting to trust. I want to try some agility with her and will be using ONLY positive methods!! I MAY even pick up a clicker one of these days I would welcome ANY tips on how to deal with her noise phobia??? It;s kinda funny, she is an AMAZING little heeling dog to!!! like a mini hackney!!! But I would never try to compete with her either becasue of her fears. Maybe someday we will be able to work up to it???

 

My first dog was a rescue collie, she has severe agression issues but she was my heart dog I got into obedience just looking for an enjoyable activity with my dog and we both loved it so we never looked back