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Here I will strongly disagree with you RB. If you take the time to teach something then add distractions you have to back peddle a lot more. Put the distractions there from the onset, if they are too much back the dog off and build. Once a dog learns to tune out the environment the learning curve is huge. Now, I am talking about competitive obedience, not CPE, Rally and things of that nature. IMO if you are going to take the time to train then why not train for 40 point heeling to begin with .....

 

Once the dog is fluent in the behavior and knows it and is confident with it, adding in distractions is simple and does not take very long. No "back peddling" required.

 

Example - after the dog knows it in the house, do a few sessions in an empty training building. After the dog is fluent in the training building, take it into the yard at home for a few sessions. Once the dog is confident and enthusiastic and fluent in the yard, take it to the street. Once the dog is fluent in the street, take it to a training class with distracting dogs, etc. It need not be re-trained if the dog is really ready and the learning curve can be quite rapid when a solid foundation is in place.

 

I've found that dogs who can heel in the street (on a sidewalk if the road is busy, obviously!) can withstand a pretty high level of distraction in many settings. That will translate into any kind of competition. It's not like obedience competition is inherently more distracting than any other type of competition.

 

To me it does not seem like good sense - it doesn't matter what you are training for - to deliberately throw a dog into a situation that is too much and then "back the dog off and build". I've actually done that - unintentionally - in a number of training situations and found that to be "back peddling" much more than when I've given the dog time to learn and then increased the difficulty of the exercise when the dog is ready.

 

I've found that there is no substitute for true confidence. A truly confident dog will ignore distractions and stay focused on the job at hand. Adding distraction more gradually allows the dog to become more confident and that, in turn, fosters enthusiasm and focus. That's not back peddling. It's laying a foundation that will pay off big in the long run - regardless of competition and venue preference.

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A title such as CPDT or APDT doesn't compare to a lifetime working with and competing succesfully with dogs. But I do admire you working with your dogs and you seem like a very good and enthusiastic trainer. I love that you are devoted to your dogs and knowing someone who takes the time/energy to do that, what more can one ask for.

 

FWIW, I think she started working with her own dogs at least 8 years ago, has a 4 year degree in animal behavior and now works with dogs/runs training classes out of a large SC shelter for a living. So she does have just a bit of experience behind that title :rolleyes:

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RB, in theory, your last statement sounds great. Wouldn't it be great if everything worked out that way. But the thing you'll find from actually competing with dogs especially at an advanced level, is that nothing ever goes as planned and it will make you re-think and re-think your ideas on training ALOT of things!!!

 

And actually, training in a competition environment is LOADS different than training ina street or park!! It's a HIGH stress, artificial environment!!! In obedience for example, you are not only in a ring completely alone with a stranger, but you cannot talk to, feed or play with your dog during exercises!! There are dogs all over, some barking, strange poeple, food!You have to trust that you have trained your dog and prepared him enough for the tasks at hand, plus hope that your dog trusts you! And that they know what is expected of them!!!

 

I myself have trained at parks and streets, kinda mid-level work for preparing a young dog and it doesn't even compare to the stress they actually feel in the ring!

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RB, in theory, your last statement sounds great. Wouldn't it be great if everything worked out that way. But the thing you'll find from actually competing with dogs especially at an advanced level, is that nothing ever goes as planned and it will make you re-think and re-think your ideas on training ALOT of things!!!

 

Actually, competition - in several sports at various levels - has made me re-think a lot of things and my ideas on training have changed. The more I compete, the more I see the need for taking time, laying a good foundation, and using solid reinforcement to build focus and confidence before having high expectations of the dog. That's not theory, but what I have learned through experience.

 

I expect to keep learning throughout the years and I hope that over the years I will train better and smarter. But there are many things that I know I will not do to any dog in the name of training. It just wouldn't be worth it to me. Not for any title in any sport.

 

And still, I train my dogs to compete in these sports. Thankfully, we have many, many, many training options at our disposal. :rolleyes: And as I learn more and more about training, I am amazed at how many excellent reinforcement based options are out there. I will not have time to exhaust all of those options in an entire lifetime.

 

And actually, training in a competition environment is LOADS different than training ina street or park!! It's a HIGH stress, artificial environment!!!

 

The fact that you think I don't know that is quite amusing! :D You don't know anything about the dogs I compete with, nor the levels of stress that we have to contend with in competition. :D

 

So, I'll tell you straight - that is not news to me.

 

In obedience for example, you are not only in a ring completely alone with a stranger, but you cannot talk to, feed or play with your dog during exercises!! There are dogs all over, some barking, strange poeple, food!You have to trust that you have trained your dog and prepared him enough for the tasks at hand, plus hope that your dog trusts you! And that they know what is expected of them!!!

 

While the exact criteria is different, I face the same types of stresses. Every sport has a set of criteria that make it every bit as difficult as what you describe above when you get into the higher levels.

 

And in those sports there are dogs all over, some barking, strange people, food, and sometimes dogs playing rousing games at the sidelines, sound system malfunctions, people clapping and cheering, dogs getting into scuffles on the sidelines, gunshots going off, etc. etc. etc.

 

And I have to trust that I have trained my dog and prepared him for the tasks at hand, plus hope that he trusts me and that he knows what is expected.

 

That's why I lay a foundation before expecting my dog to face those challenges. If my dog isn't ready to complete the task at hand in a low level situation, the dog is certainly not ready for the big-time. Optimally, I make sure a dog is ready to move to the next level of distraction, stress, challenge, etc. before putting him into those situations.

 

There is nothing theoretical about that - through experience I've found it to be extremely effective, and extremely beneficial to both dog and handler.

 

I myself have trained at parks and streets, kinda mid-level work for preparing a young dog and it doesn't even compare to the stress they actually feel in the ring!

 

That is going to depend a lot on the dog. Remember, they are individuals. What is easy for one dog may be an extreme challenge to another. And what causes stress for one dog may not for another.

 

Some dogs are actually quite relaxed in competition settings and take them in stride. And others need a lot of help to be able to handle it.

 

So, for a dog who does not find training outdoors to be much of a challenge, there are many options. Take it to a more distracting outdoor setting. Take it to indoor show and go type settings. Do some competition simply to get experience and find what is needed to help the dog better handle the stress.

 

I find that working with my dog specifically to help him or her handle competition stress is as much of a joy as training for the sport itself. And it's a progression with a foundation and confidence building, etc. Again, no theory there, but experience.

 

A work in progress, certainly. But enough experience to have learned that. :D

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RB, ok do you have "any" ring experience with any of your dogs? I am speaking "competition obedience"? If so what levels? I'm asking because much of what you are saying sounds good, looks great in writing and will not hold up for 1 minute in the competition world. My pups are at trials when they are 8 weeks old, they are learning attention there in the middle of high levels of stress and environment where you can sometimes cut the tension with a knife. So, wimping out and asking them to do something at home is a walk in the park compared to what they are being brought up to do. Now, if we're simply talking "pet" training, hey, I agree with much of what you say. But before you give great advise for a "pet" to someone that possibly wants to enter the "ring" I'd like to know your achievements there :rolleyes: I would rather my dog comfortable in the environment with "all" the unknown elements and ask him only for some minor work; then allow him to be perfect at home where it's not mentally challenging. I rarely train at home.....too easy.

 

ETA - shysheperdess - be careful of the WS & PB...I had one pup who simply bit the spoon and held on :D

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RB, I to believe in setting a firm and extensive foundation for my dogs, this I can completely agree on! All of my dogs training is built on drive and focus!!! Plus building a relationship with your dog!!! These are the tools that ultimately get you through high levels of training and the stress of training/competing. And ALL dogs have some level of stress associated with this, they can just show is in different ways. It's my job to, like you said lay the foundation and make sure my dogs can handle things to the best of my ability.

 

However, where I will disagree with you is that the dog must be taught on some level that specific things are expected of them, no questions asked. I have found that with training dogs to compete, that to keep things as clear and black/white is in the best interest of the dog. They know whats expected and know what they are expected to do. For instance in heeling, when training for focused attention, AFTER teaching what a collar pop means you begin teaching the dog that certain things are not ok and you MUST pay attention when asked. You of course build this up, asking little by little. Of course in your eyes if you train things correctly and lay the correct foundation the dog will never be in a postion where they need a reminder, but I can guarentee at some point especialy when you advance, there will be.

 

You are right I am sorry, I don't know at what level you have trained a dog. I know you have mentioned competing in agility and some Rally...

 

I apologize if I come off badly, I have been training and competing for years, and I have not had good experiences with people who teach "positive only" training. I have yet to meet someone who can make it transfer over to the obedience ring succesfully. I believe certain dogs respond extremely well to this method in some contexts and it's great for teaching the beginning phases of things and shaping behaviors, I have just not seen it carry over xompletely into actually competing in advanced obedience.

 

Even with basic obedience. I work at a training facility and we see scads of dogs come to us after there dogs are out of control because they were previously at a "positive only" training facility. So, I just don't have a good experience with this method alone.

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Journey, may I ask how much experience you have competing? We may know some of the same poeple, bc people tend to run in the same crownd :rolleyes: I live in the upper-midwest.

 

RB, there are many venues where you can compete with in obedience other than AKC. UKC , CKC and ASCA are a few, I started out in ASCA :D Very low-key and fun.

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I am getting the vibe aswell that some people are = competition style obedience with harsh corrections and negative-based training. This is the farthest thing from the truth. If anything, training and competing all these years has taught me to be quite creative and flexible!!!

 

I think until you try obtain a high level of competition you really have no idea the respect the trainers who achieve that level deserve. It's easier to see them as prong collar promoting, neck yanking barbarians, but if they used these methods alone they wouldn't get very far! and really watching the BEST competitive teams out there, it truly is a work of art and team work between dog/handler.

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RB, I to believe in setting a firm and extensive foundation for my dogs, this I can completely agree on! All of my dogs training is built on drive and focus!!! Plus building a relationship with your dog!!! These are the tools that ultimately get you through high levels of training and the stress of training/competing. And ALL dogs have some level of stress associated with this, they can just show is in different ways. It's my job to, like you said lay the foundation and make sure my dogs can handle things to the best of my ability.

 

Yes, there we do agree.

 

However, where I will disagree with you is that the dog must be taught on some level that specific things are expected of them, no questions asked.

 

And there we do disagree.

 

Dogs always have choices. I respect that in my dog above any particular activity that I pursue with the dog. And I do regard participation (on the dog's part) in a sport that is given to me by the dog freely and willingly as a much higher value than participation that would be the result of me trying to limit the dog's choices in learning.

 

So, yes, my dogs are allowed to - figuratively, of course - ask questions during training. And I, to the best of my ability, seek to answer them fully and clearly. I find that to be a win/win. The dog is now an active participant in his or her learning. That is extremely reinforcing to me, as it is to them. And it produces great results. Once the dog knows the behavior, there are no more questions! The learning has taken place.

 

That does not mean that I don't train to standards. I do. As I train more, my standards do become higher. But I still want a lot of input from the dog along the way. My dog and I are in this together and I want the dog to be as much a part of it as possible.

 

It's kind of hard to explain, but the more I've let go of trying to control every aspect of my dog's training, the higher their skill level has actually become!

 

After our mountains of snow melt and I actually get to the training building again, I want to get some video of Dean to share, and I'll share a bit about how we got from where he started to the point where he is now. He has taught me a lot about what is possible if I let the dog have some say in the learning process.

 

I have found that with training dogs to compete, that to keep things as clear and black/white is in the best interest of the dog. They know whats expected and know what they are expected to do. For instance in heeling, when training for focused attention, AFTER teaching what a collar pop means you begin teaching the dog that certain things are not ok and you MUST pay attention when asked.

 

Ah! I do not want my dog to pay attention because he MUST. I want him to pay attention because he knows it is his job and he is willingly choosing to take part in that with me. For me it must be 100% mutual.

 

And that is possible. It's not everyone's preference . . . obviously. But it is mine. I don't take issue with people who have other preferences. I do take issue with those who say it is not possible. :rolleyes:

 

You of course build this up, asking little by little. Of course in your eyes if you train things correctly and lay the correct foundation the dog will never be in a postion where they need a reminder, but I can guarentee at some point especialy when you advance, there will be.

 

Sure, the dog needs a reminder. But that reminder can be "this is where I want you" as easily as it can be "that is where I don't want you".

 

My preference is "this where I want you". I don't really see why anyone would object to that.

 

I apologize if I come off badly, I have been training and competing for years, and I have not had good experiences with people who teach "positive only" training.

 

Well, I'm sorry you have had those experiences. I've had some negative experiences with people who incorporate correction into their training, but I've learned to try not to paint everyone who does so with the same brush. I have a lot of good friends who use some corrections in their training and I don't object out of hand to their techniques just because some trainers who use corrections have been rude to me, etc.

 

Some of us reinforcement trainers aren't so bad.

 

I have yet to meet someone who can make it transfer over to the obedience ring succesfully. I believe certain dogs respond extremely well to this method in some contexts and it's great for teaching the beginning phases of things and shaping behaviors, I have just not seen it carry over xompletely into actually competing in advanced obedience.

 

You know, the fact that you haven't met anyone yet who has done so doesn't mean it's not possible! Nor does it mean that it has not happened. I believe that in Reaching the Animal Mind, Karen Pryor identifies some serious and successful obedience competitors who have gotten there without correction in their training. I don't have the book with me here, but later tonight I'll try to remember to look and see if I can find those names and what she wrote about them.

 

Even with basic obedience. I work at a training facility and we see scads of dogs come to us after there dogs are out of control because they were previously at a "positive only" training facility. So, I just don't have a good experience with this method alone.

 

There are obviously some problems with that facility. Not every facility - regardless of training techniques employed - is a quality facility.

 

I can tell you for a fact that it is possible to train basic obedience without use of correction. I've done it and I'm nothing special as a dog trainer.

 

If dogs are coming out of that facility out of control, the problem is with that facility, not with reinforcement based training in and of itself.

 

FWIW, I've met plenty of dogs trained with corrections that remain "out of control", as well.

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I am getting the vibe aswell that some people are = competition style obedience with harsh corrections and negative-based training. This is the farthest thing from the truth. If anything, training and competing all these years has taught me to be quite creative and flexible!!!

 

I think until you try obtain a high level of competition you really have no idea the respect the trainers who achieve that level deserve. It's easier to see them as prong collar promoting, neck yanking barbarians, but if they used these methods alone they wouldn't get very far! and really watching the BEST competitive teams out there, it truly is a work of art and team work between dog/handler.

 

I'm getting a vibe, as well! The vibe that I'm getting is that high level competition obedience trainers deserve a high level of respect, but that high level trainers in the other sports do not. I'm getting a vibe that other sports just pale in comparison as far as difficulty level goes.

 

shysheperdess - do you know exactly what goes into training a competition level Musical Freestyle routine? I'm not asking in a snarky, combatitive way. I'm seriously wondering if you really know anything about what it takes. Have you ever tried it? If not, you really have no idea how difficult it is. It kind of looks easy . . . but we all know it takes an extremely high level of skill to make something look easy.

 

I think that until you try to obtain a high level of competition in the other sports, you have no idea the respect the trainers who achieve those levels in those sports deserve.

 

I like obedience to a certain degree. If I ever have a dog who really takes to it, I would consider training to competition level (sans corrections - I don't care if it's possible or not, that is just how I would do it!). But right now my interest, and that of my dogs, lies with Agility and Musical Freestyle. And Dean loves Rally, so I do that just for him.

 

I'm getting the impression that you don't realize what a high level of training and skill is needed in those sports. :rolleyes: And that the need for a high level of training, skill, and ability to handle stress and distraction is required for success in those sports.

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Journey, may I ask how much experience you have competing? We may know some of the same poeple, bc people tend to run in the same crownd :rolleyes: I live in the upper-midwest.

 

RB, there are many venues where you can compete with in obedience other than AKC. UKC , CKC and ASCA are a few, I started out in ASCA :D Very low-key and fun.

 

I have walked away from it many years ago. I also have some students with HIT, HC and 2 that got their OTCh. While I love obedience and the relationship it brings I also love my sheep! So, all I do now is stock work. Oh, I was in Florida, now in frigid frozen Tenn!

 

ASCA and UKC are great venues to start a green dog in!

 

There is no license required to be a dog trainer, even CPDT is written only. If one is looking for a competitive trainer go to a show and watch. Find the dogs and handlers you like and seek out the trainer of them!

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Journey, WOW! Congrads on all the accomplishments! I am thick into the competition world after getting hooked with my first dog!!! My Novice A dog was so special, we managed to rank #1 in her breed for obedience in the open class many years in a row! We got our first OTCH together, what a ride!! Now I am heavy into it with my bc's! They just love it!! BUT, the minute it stops being fun we will be done!!!

 

Ironicly, OUR love is stockwork to :D We have out HC and are competing in USBCHA pro-novice :D I don't have my own sheep :rolleyes: But I am maybe going to be in a position to board some this spring! Woohoo!!! Anyway, I may shoot a PM your way with some ?'s on a few Utility exercises?

 

RB, I do know a few people who do freestyle but just for fun. I know there is Musical freestyle or heelwork to music. Musical freestyle is kinda showcasing a dog/handler team, emphasizing creativity and such. The dog does various tricks and variations of obedience-type exercises. There is no food but you can talk to the dog the whole time? I know that the performance is judged in a whole, taking into account routine, dancing of the handler, music and costumes rather than the technicality of the dog alone. Like obedience if you don't get a certain amount of points I beleive you don't get a qualifying score? I think there are 3 levels?

 

I know ALOT of top level Agility competitors and am fully aware of what goes into training to a top level in this sport, of course by top level I mean MACH. We actually just had a "MACH" party for a friend of mine, and my best friend does agility with her dogs. Plus her mom owns a top-notch training facility and is an instructor so I am pretty involved! I myself have have done some agility and goteen a few Novice titles but I try to put %110 into what I am competing in and with only so much time something had to go. So I stuck with Obedience and herding.

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RB, ok, you have no competitive obed experience, no big deal; however, imo that negates your opinion that "your" methods will work, you haven't proven that and have no track record. I am NOT trying to take anything away, a lot of your advise is fantastic for the pet owner but it won't hold water in the ring. As for knowing what it takes in other venues...ask the owner of "Dancing Duncan" she can vouch for me if you think I don't know what it takes to do "freestyle" and agility - don't forget I came from Fl. I was 15 min from Patty & Stuart Mah, Lynn R. was in my class with her MACH2 BC and you have to have a moderate amount of obedience to reach those levels. So yes, I do know what it takes elsewhere. As for Rally, well, from a hard core comp. obed person, rally is nothing more than a dumbed down obed title for people that don't want to "work" at training their dog (go ahead flame away) that's simply my opinion of Rally.

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RB, I do know a few people who do freestyle but just for fun. I know there is Musical freestyle or heelwork to music. Musical freestyle is kinda showcasing a dog/handler team, emphasizing creativity and such. The dog does various tricks and variations of obedience-type exercises.

 

"Moves", we call them. Some are tricks, some are obedience type exercises, and some really don't fall into either category - they are creative movements that highlight the dog's skill and artistic ability.

 

There is no food but you can talk to the dog the whole time?

 

Weeeeeeell . . . technically you can talk to your dog the whole time, but if you chatter to your dog throughout the whole routine once you get beyond novice, you'll get docked for both artistic and technical points.

 

In the high levels of Freestyle in the US, all cues must be verbal . . . but the judges don't want to hear the cues. Loud cues would get you points docked. So, you have to give your verbal cues loudly enough for the dog to hear, but quiet enough that it does not take away from the artistic impression of the routine.

 

You can't be out there in the high levels going, "Gooooood boy! Heel, heel, heel! Gooooooood!" In Beginner and Novice, sure. By the time you are in Intermediate, no way.

 

So, cueing is an art in itself. You have to be doing something with your upper body, but none of your upper body movement can be perceived as an obvious cue to the dog. And your verbal cues must be spoken quietly.

 

And yes, no food. No toys. And props cannot serve as motivators.

 

I know that the performance is judged in a whole, taking into account routine, dancing of the handler, music and costumes rather than the technicality of the dog alone.

 

Correct. There is an artistic score and a technical score. While you do decide on all of the moves in the routine, there is a certain level of technical skill expected in the higher levels. Laterals, for instances, are expected to be straight, if you put them in a routine. Backing, if you put it in a routine, is expected to be straight. Technical score includes things like precision, the dog responding to just one cue, quality and amount of and difficulty of moves in the routine. Artistic includes costume, overall "look" of the routine, audience appeal, etc.

 

Depending on the level, the dog must work on a certain amount of sides of the handler. In Beginner it's two. In Novice - three. In Intermediate - four. In Advanced - more than four. In Perfect Dance Partners - more than four. So the dog needs to learn movement on all four sides of the handler. That includes behind where there is no eye contact. They want quality moves behind the handler. One twirl doesn't cut it!

 

Like obedience if you don't get a certain amount of points I beleive you don't get a qualifying score? I think there are 3 levels?

 

Correct. There is a minimum artistic and technical score and both must be qualifying in order for you to qualify. If you miss the mark by one tenth of a point on one or the other, you don't qualify. In Intermediate that happens a lot.

 

I bring this up because a lot of people think Freestyle is a big joke. But it's actually an extremely difficult sport to have success in. Like I said, the dog must work on all four sides of the handler. The judges want to see originality, precision, and an enthusiastic attitude from the dog.

 

Oh, and it's subjective. One judge's interpretation of your routine can be very different from another. While the guidelines are clear at each level, one judge might consider your dog's twirl on his or her hind legs to be of high technical value and another might consider it a very ordinary move for a Border Collie! So, when you design your routine you really don't know how each judge that you show it under is going to score it. That is, if it comes off perfect!

 

Add to that it is a very odd situation for a dog. You are in front of an audience. They are watching and they are allowed to clap. There are usually dogs in the audience, too, and people eating food. There might be dogs warming up or playing in the building. The ring is empty - no judge, no signs, no equipment (unless you are using a prop that you place during sound check). The judges are at a table and there is a video camera and sound system. Some dogs find the video camera a real challenge. The quality of the music coming from the sound system is different from what the dog typically hears from a boom box. There are usually big speakers.

 

Freestyle can be easy for a beginner. In Beginner you can use hand signals and you only have to work the dog on two sides and not very much is expected. By the time you get into Intermediate the technical level expectations on the team skyrocket.

 

I bring this up also because Musical Freestyle trainers typically train without corrections. If you want your dog to spin tight and fast one one cue and wide and slow on another, you never correct the dog for doing either! If you want your dog to work on the left sometimes and the right at other times, you never correct either. If you want the dog to work behind you, you don't correct the dog for lagging in training! If you want the dog to work ahead of you, you don't correct the dog for forging. Of course, if you never want to get to the high levels, you don't worry about those things, but if you want to get to the high levels, you are very careful not to tell the dog he is "wrong" for something you just might want him to do in a higher level to get some of those technical points!

 

If a dog can learn - through reinforcement only - to perform reliably in front of an audience for up to four minutes (how much time you get depends on your level. The lowest level is a minimum of 1 minute 30 seconds, the top level requires 4 minutes) with enthusiasm, extreme precision, and competent skill - then that's going to be the manner in which I train my dog for every sport that I ever want to get serious about. Agility, Obedience, Rally, Frisbee, Dock Diving, etc.

 

And that's no small undertaking. But it's possible!

 

Whenever anyone tells me it can't be done (and they have!), I just work all the harder to prove that it can. Prove to whom? Well, to the ones who actually matter most to me - my dogs! After all - I enjoy it thoroughly, but in the end I do it for them. I never want to look back and say, "I could have trained that without . . . . (leash pops, verbal corrections, non reward markers, etc.)"

 

That's just me and my preference. And it doesn't stop any goal that I have with my dogs from being possible!

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I can run a Rally course with my 6 month old pup.....need I say more.

 

It's kinda funny, wasn't Rally originally designed in hopes of attracting more people into competitive obedience? I heard in theory, once you get a RA title you should be ready for Novice class in obedience competition. More and more pet people though are using it as a competition in itself though.

 

I DO take my very young dogs through Rally to prep them for actually competing! It's a good way to get them introduced to the ring without the extreme stress of an actual ring environment!

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RB, ok, you have no competitive obed experience, no big deal; however, imo that negates your opinion that "your" methods will work, you haven't proven that and have no track record. I am NOT trying to take anything away, a lot of your advise is fantastic for the pet owner but it won't hold water in the ring.

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

The obedience ring is distinct from that in other sports - true. But there is also a great deal of overlap. Duration heeling in the face of distractions is duration heeling in the face of distractions. Other dogs, presence of judges, etc. etc.

 

I'm not saying I've trained a dog to the top levels in obedience. I have not . . . yet!! LOL!! But I can very plainly see that a good deal of what I have done in other sports applies. It's not like what I know means nothing because I don't have the title you think I need for my advice to have merit in your eyes. I know you think that, but that doesn't make it so.

 

And it's not like the dog knows that this is some super-unique sport where training without corrections somehow "isn't possible", so everything automatically falls apart.

 

As for knowing what it takes in other venues...ask the owner of "Dancing Duncan" she can vouch for me if you think I don't know what it takes to do "freestyle" and agility

 

It's interesting you say that. The owner of "Dancing Duncan" recently wrote on a list of which I am a member that Freestyle has changed so much, and become so much more technical and difficult, that what she did in Duncan's time would not have met with the same level of success now.

 

So, have you competed in Freestyle in the last 3 - 5 years? I wasn't involved back when Duncan was dancing, but now the technical skill you need - even to get out of Intermediate - is incredibly higher than it used to be. That is not my opinion, but is according to the owner of Dancing Duncan. If you haven't been involved in the last 3 - 5 years, you probably don't know what it takes. They are looking for far more precision, creativity, duration, and skill level now.

 

As for Rally, well, from a hard core comp. obed person, rally is nothing more than a dumbed down obed title for people that don't want to "work" at training their dog (go ahead flame away) that's simply my opinion of Rally.

 

I'm not going to flame. You're entitled to your opinion. I think you are missing something of great value in that point of view.

 

Sports, especially Rally, have so much more to offer than prestige. What looks "dumbed down" to you is an opportunity for someone who is new to dog sports to taste success and get a start. It is an opportunity for a handler with a dog with challenges to go out and accomplish something as a team. It is an opportunity for a retired dog to train and be active. And it's an opportunity for those who want to compete, but do not care for cut throat level competition to do so and enjoy it.

 

To you that might seem like nothing, but to many it is quite a lot. I think it's a shame because I truly do think you are missing something very rich and satisfying.

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I can run a Rally course with my 6 month old pup.....need I say more.

 

How about a dog who is most likely a bit brain damaged who has issues with extreme fear and overstimulation? And not that simple simon AKC Rally. The real thing, thank you - APDT.

 

Could you do that? Have you done it?

 

For that matter, could you run a Level 3 APDT Rally course with that 6 month old pup? That's going to include a down on recall, a down from a sit and then a sit from the down with you six feet away, backwards heeling, a recall over a jump where both you and the dog are offset, a moving down, an exercise where you leave the dog in a stay and run several steps and the dog must stay until called and then you call the dog to front as you are moving forward. Plus much more. For your bonus you might need a retrieve, a lateral side step, a straight step back, a stand for exam, plus others.

 

6 month old puppy? Really. You could train a 6 month old puppy to do every sign in APDT Rally and then run the courses off leash? Have you done it?

 

And lest you think APDT Rally is some simpled down version of AKC Rally, the opposite is actually true.

 

It's kinda funny, wasn't Rally originally designed in hopes of attracting more people into competitive obedience?

 

Actually, no. Rally was developed by Bud Kramer to be a stand alone sport. APDT Rally was developed, I believe, under his approval.

 

When AKC adopted Rally, that was part of their intent, but that was actually not the intention of the actual creator of Rally.

 

I heard in theory, once you get a RA title you should be ready for Novice class in obedience competition. More and more pet people though are using it as a competition in itself though.

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

Actually, that's what the original creator of Rally intended. It's ironic that AKC has not actually succeeded in turning it into something else!

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The thread has long since passed me by, but I did want to throw one thing in for clarification - I mentioned my CPDT title so you would understand that I'm not an average pet person and that I do more than what I do with my own dogs - not necessarily to somehow indicate I know all there is about all the various dog sports out there (faaar from it lol). I was feeling a bit talked down to and felt the need to clarify that I can handle technical descriptions, etc. :rolleyes: I posted my vid as a "see this is beginning level choose to heel" for the OP, not really for a critique, though some of the info has been eye opening and I did enjoy hearing people praise Z. :D

 

That being said, I guess I won't be doing comp. obedience any time soon - I can't stand heeling with the dog's ear at my pant seam - you can't even see them there! :D Maybe we'll look into schutzhund obedience where forging it expected. :D

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Attitudes like the ones I have seen on this thread are exactly why I wouldn't want to do competitive obedience.

 

Why would I want to train in something that is suppose to be fun that "requires" I correct my dog.....blech leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I don't have a problem with corrections I use them in daily life (for important things) and if I was to work stock I totally understand why one needs to use them and to a have a dog that accepts them and uses them.

 

But to use corrections for something this is suppose to be a GAME and fun for the dog and owner is just so distasteful to me, and then to have people who want to have fun with their dogs and not want to use corrections get talked down to about their methods. Yuck..... :rolleyes:

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RB, I am not trying to take away from your accomplishments. But certainly we can agree that the different sports we choose to participate in have different "skills" to master and therefore require different ways of possibly training. I can easily see why Freestyle would be a purely positive sport, given all that is required for scoring. Obedience is more about precision and control on some level. Both are a "team sport" handler/dog and are scored as such.

 

Of course in my humble opinion Obedience is way more complicated, there is a greater degree of difficulty and precision required not to mention the competition alot more cut-throat, so to compete at a high level is extremly difficult. Some poeple take a lifetime to obtain an OTCH, you have to beat the best! Often in classes with up to 50 seasoned competitors.

 

Rally is what rally is, a "gateway" to competitive dog sports for people wanting to get into showing with there dogs. And I give anybody kudos for getting out there and working there dogs. But it is what it is, beginner level work.

 

If I ever wanted advice on freestyle you would be the first one I asked :rolleyes:

 

I would be VERY intersted in knowing one day if they way you train stands up in the competitive obedience ring, not because I am trying to be condesending but because I am always willing to learn new things and gain a different perspective. But for now, I would have to agree with Journey(who damands respect in herself with her accomplishments) that I don't think it would hold up.

 

Good luck :D

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RB, I am not trying to take away from your accomplishments. But certainly we can agree that the different sports we choose to participate in have different "skills" to master and therefore require different ways of possibly training. I can easily see why Freestyle would be a purely positive sport, given all that is required for scoring. Obedience is more about precision and control on some level. Both are a "team sport" handler/dog and are scored as such.

 

That illustrates another part of the reason why I brought Freestyle up. You really don't know a lot about it. You say that Obedience is more about precision and control, but I would actually say the exact same thing about Freestyle! Without a very high level of precision, you won't get beyond Novice. Without self control, the dog won't get beyond Novice, either.

 

Yes, the two sports have different skills. But I would say that the skill level is much more equal between the two sports than you think.

 

Rally is what rally is, a "gateway" to competitive dog sports for people wanting to get into showing with there dogs. And I give anybody kudos for getting out there and working there dogs. But it is what it is, beginner level work.

 

I think the people with the ARCH, ARCHX, ARCHEX, and ARCHMX titles in APDT Rally would beg to differ with you!

 

Do you have any of those titles? Do you really know what it takes to get them?

 

Rally is not as easy peasy as you seem to think. Sure, AKC Novice level Rally is simple. But getting those combined titles in APDT takes a level of skill and mental endurance for both dog and handler of which you are completely unaware! Triple Q's with scores over 195 in all three levels in the same trial don't come to "pet people" or beginners!

 

I'm not saying it's as difficult as an OTCH, but it's far from a cake walk. And it's way beyond beginner level. Nobody gets those titles without a great deal of work. Nobody.

 

I would be VERY intersted in knowing one day if they way you train stands up in the competitive obedience ring, not because I am trying to be condesending but because I am always willing to learn new things and gain a different perspective. But for now, I would have to agree with Journey(who damands respect in herself with her accomplishments) that I don't think it would hold up.

 

Well, someday I just might let you know.

 

And I will check that Karen Pryor book. I might be able to give you some names of people who have done it. And if it has been done, then it can hold up, and it is possible!

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OK, I didn't need to find it in the book. The Karen Pryor site has an "honor roll" section.

 

These are two real people who have attained the OTCH without use of corrections in their training. Neither of these are crossover dogs. Both seem to have been started with clicker training and trained that way all the way through.

 

These folks are not, by any standards, "beginners", "pet people", or people who don't want to work!

 

OTCH Tashel's Mooseleuk Stryder WC JH AGn TDX CGN AKC CDX JH

 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/860

 

This one seems to be the Canadian equivalent . . .

 

Motch Nelson's Golden Scotsman WC JH AGn CGN TDX AKC CDX JH

 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/859

 

It is possible!

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