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Hello,

I have a 9 month old BC and we have gone to 4 classes so far and the hardest thing for us is heeling. we use a choke chain and use the "pop" to correct. i guess my question is how did any of you teach your dog heel work? if you have a different method i would love to know....

 

Thanks!

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Hello,

I have a 9 month old BC and we have gone to 4 classes so far and the hardest thing for us is heeling. we use a choke chain and use the "pop" to correct. i guess my question is how did any of you teach your dog heel work? if you have a different method i would love to know....

 

Thanks!

 

Tell then where you want then and then tell them they're right. I'd loose the choke chain ASAP. I'd rather use a prong any day over a choke. But you don't need either for a 9 m/o pup. Have you tried rewarding him when he is in the right position? How much do you work with him away from class? I prefer to teach heel work in a quiet, distraction free environment, then add in the distractions slowly.

 

FWIW I got the basic positioning down with my youngster in about 2 sessions with the clicker. Then in another 2 sessions we added in backwards. It's not perfect, but she has the idea down and I can slowly built on and reinforce it.

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Hello,

I have a 9 month old BC and we have gone to 4 classes so far and the hardest thing for us is heeling. we use a choke chain and use the "pop" to correct. i guess my question is how did any of you teach your dog heel work? if you have a different method i would love to know....

 

Thanks!

 

I use a method that is the total opposite.

 

There is no corrective collar of any type on the dog. When I'm working at home, I work the dog off leash.

 

I start two ways. I stand so that the dog is between me and a wall, or piece of furniture. I lure the dog into position with food, or I use a target to get the dog to move into position, then I click when the dog is exactly in heel and treat. After doing that a few times, I add one little step. After I click/treat the first time for the dog moving into heel, I wait a split second and then click/treat again. That starts to teach the dog duration. The behavior is both getting into heel and remaining there. Gradually I increase the time between the first click/treat and the second.

 

In the same session, I put the dog in a sit and I move myself so the dog is sitting in heel. I click/treat the dog, move away, move back, click/treat the dog, repeat repeat repeat. This starts to teach the dog that being in heel position is highly rewarding.

 

Since I'm a Freestyler, I repeat the process with the dog both on left and right.

 

After doing that for just a couple of days, I start to add in movement - just a few steps at a time at first.

 

Again, I do two different things in the same training session. I use a lure or target to get the dog into heel, take one step, and click/treat the dog for moving with me in heel. If the dog has a tendency to surge ahead, I move straight so there is a wall directly in front of us. With the wall to the left, me on the dog's right, and the wall ahead, there is noplace for the dog to be but heel. I click/treat the dog for moving in heel.

 

In the same session, I get a handful of treats, put them right on the dog's nose, move the dog into heel, and move a few steps. I click as we are moving and stop to treat, with the dog remaining in heel. I do this several times and then I click as we move and treat as we move.

 

I do quite a lot of the lured work, and I keep the food right on the dog's nose for a long time. In the first exercise, where the dog moves into heel and we move together toward a wall, the point is for the dog to think about being in heel and be rewarded for being there. In the second exercise, the idea is for the dog to just feel what correct heeling feels like.

 

Again, I repeat on both the right and the left.

 

Once the dog really has the idea, I increase distance and duration and start to move the food away. I start by using a "fake" lure with no food in my hand to teach the dog that the food can be elsewhere on my body and the dog will still get the reward. This is the beginning of the transition from "following food" to gorgeous heeling. After the dog is comfortable with that for 5 or 6 steps between rewards, I change to an open hand target, and gradually I raise that away from the dog.

 

At that point, I do add in some clicker work to make sure that the dog is really understanding heel. I will take the dog into an open space and just walk around. Any time the dog moves into heel, I click/treat, and if the dog remains there I click/treat. I build duration gradually.

 

And, at some point I add in stops, turns, sits, downs, spins, twirls, etc. etc. etc. But I stick with plain heeling work for a long time to make sure the dog becomes really fluent.

 

The results of this are beautiful. I did this with Dean and he is the most beautiful heeling dog I have, and he LOVES to heel! He gets really excited about it - it's very cute. But he's also very good!

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Hi, you didn't really say if you were interested in competing or not???

 

If you are there is a method developed by and extremely accomplished competitor, who competed with her bc's. The method starts out by teaching pups/young dogs postion and drive by using a long spoon with pb or cheese spread on the end. Working in a large circle with the dog on your outside. Spread either the cheese/pb all over the end of one spoon, let the pup or dog lick it to see where it is. Then get moving. You want to move at a quick pace, holding the spoon in away from your body, low enough for the dog to lick the spoon. Periodicly raise the spoon, whent he pup dog focuses on the spoon for a few seconds lower it for a reward generally working towards more prolonged focus on the spoon above before rewarding. By holding the spoon away from your body at first you are not establishing heel postion yet, you working on the foundation for lovely attentive heeling by #1) getting the dog used to walking with it's head up, using his rear for drive. #2) helping the dog learn to focus on something while moving and build there focus, they will eventually be asked to focus on a spot on your body #3) establishing DRIVE which is the utmost important thing for correct, great healing that will last through competition. Also, frequent breaks, and playing with a toy or tugging is encouraged!!!! Then go right back into heeling/driving at a swift pace.

 

The progression goes like this. Once the dog is focused well on the spoon with intermiten rewards with the dog heeling and driving out to the side of your body slowly bring the dog closer to heel position, eventually wanting the spoon held up by your left shoulder which is the optimal position for heeling where you want the dog to "look". BC's are known for forging and if you make the mistake of making there target you face or upper pocket area is can cause problems later on. Most likely the dog will find there own place to "look" or focus but you want it to be around your shoulder area. You can eventually get rid of the spoon and tuck a toy under your left arm, emphasizing that position.

 

The great thing about this method is it can be started on young pups, there is video of a 8 week pup spoon heeling on you tube and is an excellent foundation using positive motivation.

 

Later light collar pops can be used for fine tuning. When the pup gets a little older you can inroduce them to a light collar pup by putting a prong/slip collar high up behind the ears. You can give them a soft little pop and treat right away onece they look at you. Praise,praise,praise. You want to be able to use collar pops as a communication tool instead of a negative thing with your dog.

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Later light collar pops can be used for fine tuning. When the pup gets a little older you can inroduce them to a light collar pup by putting a prong/slip collar high up behind the ears. You can give them a soft little pop and treat right away onece they look at you. Praise,praise,praise. You want to be able to use collar pops as a communication tool instead of a negative thing with your dog.

 

 

Are collar pops used by most agility folk?

 

Love the spoon idea. I can use this with little Bea.

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Collar pops are not used by agility folk as far as I know.

 

They are helpul further along in training for the precision that heel-work can require, AFTER you build a foundation on drive and focus!!!!

 

It can be good to introduce a small collar pop as something that is not negative when they are young. If dogs see a correction as punishment they can get sulky. A small collar pop followed immediately by a jackpot of treats and praise plus a release in the early stages will help your youngster accept it as a communication tool later on. When I train my dogs, during heeling now if they are slightly out of position or distracted for a split second, a soft collar tug is all they need. They know exactly what it means.

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Are collar pops used by most agility folk?

 

Love the spoon idea. I can use this with little Bea.

 

No. Dogs don't have leashes on when they do Agility. The collar pops tend to be more popular among some (some, not all) of the traditional obedience folks. I don't see it much among Rally or Freestyle folks, either.

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Thanks for the input. eventually i would love to compete, but i did notice that when we practice at home and i correct with the pop after a few times he shuts down. i praise immediately after the correction but i really do no think that method is for him. i will work on no collar and use a lure. no distractions at first then gradually add distractions right? he is clicker trained so i think i will start over from the top.

 

Thanks again!

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no distractions at first then gradually add distractions right? he is clicker trained so i think i will start over from the top.

 

Exactly. Don't even worry about distractions until he really understands heel and can do so for a little bit of duration with enthusiasm and confidence. Then it is best to add distractions as gradually as possible.

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No. Dogs don't have leashes on when they do Agility. The collar pops tend to be more popular among some (some, not all) of the traditional obedience folks. I don't see it much among Rally or Freestyle folks, either.

 

 

I should have been more specific. I meant training foundation in agility. I imagine the leash is used for this somewhat? Maybe not?

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Collar pops are not used by agility folk as far as I know.

 

They are helpul further along in training for the precision that heel-work can require, AFTER you build a foundation on drive and focus!!!!

 

It can be good to introduce a small collar pop as something that is not negative when they are young. If dogs see a correction as punishment they can get sulky. A small collar pop followed immediately by a jackpot of treats and praise plus a release in the early stages will help your youngster accept it as a communication tool later on. When I train my dogs, during heeling now if they are slightly out of position or distracted for a split second, a soft collar tug is all they need. They know exactly what it means.

 

I think I understand what you are getting at and I agree this is useful. The pop is more of an attention getter not a physical correction. Am I right? It's all about feel and intention.

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Flyer, yes when I say a collar pop I don't mean a harsh jerk on the lead. You want it to be a more of a "pay attnetion to me" reminder, not a negative punishment. If taught correctly your dog will know exactly what it is supposed to mean and will not get sulky. When heeling with my dogs now in the advanced stages just a soft 2 motion tug is all they need.

 

And no this method is NOT used by traditional obedience trainers. I would encourage you to go watch an obedience competition, watching the best OTCH handlers out there heel in perfect unison with there dogs is an amazing thing. Partners in a dance with no luring or talking as in rally. These dogs are focused completely on there handlers with people, food and dogs all around them. I have trained and gone to seminars with some of the most succesful and amazing obedience trainers out there and they all use some variation of this method for heeling.

 

I would like to stress that the foundation of a good heeling dog once again is built on DRIVE and FOCUS! Heeling should be fun fo the dog!!! Lots of toys, and games, short sessions!!! In the early stages espcially you want the dog to be succesful!!! In the beginning you want to teach the young dog what a collar tug means, and not to take offense. It's a PAY ATTENTION cue. This will come more into play later in training and when you start to enter distractions in!

 

 

If the dog is getting sulky about a pop you are correcting to harshly. Just a light two motion tug, then jackpot of treats and praise when the dog is looking at you. You always praise the dog for paying attention to you, further on when your dog is in heel position and he looks off, tug tug then praise praise treat and release when the dog looks at you. This is built up over time, adding distractions gradually until the dog know what is expected of him.

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I should have been more specific. I meant training foundation in agility. I imagine the leash is used for this somewhat? Maybe not?

 

It depends. Some people do and some people don't.

 

The leash is typically used in foundation Agility for safety, but the best Agility trainers would not use a leash specifically to teach most pieces of equipment, nor foundation handling.

 

For instance, the dog might have a leash on while learning a tunnel, so the handler can step on it or grab it to prevent the dog from taking off after coming out of the tunnel. Typically, there are a lot of greener dogs in a foundation class, so a leash on a dog who has not yet developed enough focus to orient to the handler immediately after coming out of a tunnel or something isn't a bad idea.

 

But most people don't teach tunnels, for example, by dragging the dog through on a leash, or by popping when the dog makes a mistake.

 

There is a method of weave pole training that utilizes the leash, but it's not a pop thing. The leash is actually used in some way to build drive through the poles by sort of hold the dog back a little so the dog will drive against it. I've heard of this - never actually seen it done. It's not common.

 

I've seen some strange things done in foundation Agility classes - many things I would never do myself. Odd corrections, odd ways of introducing equipment, etc. But I would still say that leash corrections are not the norm since the ultimate goal is for the dog to be off leash as fast as possible.

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This is quite timely - I just posted a vid on YouTube with me working my middle dog on her heel - we use a clicker based method.

 

 

Nice!

 

I'm curious about one thing - is there a particular reason why you reach across from the opposite side to reward? I wonder because I'm a dog-side hand feeder. I'd be interested to know if there is a particular benefit to starting out feeding across the body.

 

She'd be a very pretty Freestyle dog! She moves very nicely.

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Shepherdess: Z and I have been working on heeling for a little while but very irregularly - I still consider her relatively new to heel work as we don't even have it on cue yet. This session was the first time we'd worked on heel for about 4-6 weeks. I don't compete in obedience with Z, though I am considering doing some rally work after my move to NC. We currently compete in agility and I work on precision stuff for fun and to show off to the classes I teach. :rolleyes: I'm planning on working on heel more with Z right now since we're headed to Clicker Expo in March and I need her to walk close for the crowded conditions.

 

Training progression depends a bit on the dog, but roughly looks like this:

1. Wander aimlessly around yard or training floor (silent); C/T dog when they enter the "magic box" (18"x18" centered on my pants seam) next to my left hip

2. Dog chooses to heel alongside on their own for more than 2 paces --> click for series of steps instead of single steps w/in the magic box

3. Dog heels with variable c/t for a series of steps w/in the box --> c/t only for heel position within 6" of formal heel position (magic box shrinks)

4. Dog is heeling accurately for more than 2 paces --> c/t for series of steps in position, gradually extending duration of heeling between c/t **this is where Z is right now**

5. Clean up the heel (eliminate crabbing, minimize forging) by clicking only for "perfect" performance

6. Add cue

7. Start working around distractions and in various locations

 

Kristine: I had someone else ask that exact same thing when they saw that clip! :D I started just using the off side because that's the way it feels most comfortable for me, but I'm not modifying it because I like the fact that having the food in the off side hand reduces the likelihood that the dog will treat the heel side hand as a food lure - Z focuses more on what she's doing when the food isn't right in front of her nose ime. I do have to focus more on where I deliver the treat so she doesn't start wrapping in front of me, but so far so good.

 

Kes is actually catching onto heeling much faster than Z and I wonder if it might be due to the fact that he and I work on heeling using toy rewards more than I do with Z - he seems more focused in front vs to the side (I toss the toy away from me) so i don't get much crabbing like Z tends to do. I'll have to video his heeling sometime, too. :D

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This thread and the other heeling one is timely for me.

I've decided I'm going to put some concerted work into our BC and have just revisited Mary Ray's site for tips.

Body position and turns are fine (clicker, no leash) but he isn't a natural trotter and it would help his collection if he were taught to trot.

My BC x was easy to teach to trot - I just speeded up and C/T for the high stepping. This latest one is a different build and more of a pacer.

I'm just off to dig out my long target stick to do some circle work with him to see what we get.

 

Pam

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Maggiedog, good for you for being such a dilegent trainer and getting out there and working your dog!!!!

 

If I could just offer a few sudjestions? Z is not quite in position correctly most of the time for heel, that's why I asked if she was in the beginning stages where it doesn't really matter so much and as a trainer are more intersted in drive and enthusiasm!

 

But I would start encouraging her in positive ways to pull back into correct postion, where her head and ear are more by your hip and not forging so badly. She will be able to get a better idea of where to be if you work in large circles with her on your outside so she doesn't have to worry so much about where you are going to be moving and can focus on finding a focus spot to stay with you in correct position. I understand in the beginning stages of heeling people like to kinda walk all over to keep the dog guessing and interested, but if you truly want to maybe compete you need to help her get a true understanding of where heel position is.

 

SO, I would play lots of find heel games and reward right away when she gets to heel, stationary first. You should be able to put her on a wait or stay and have her postion herself sitting inheel no matter where you are. You want to help her find a "target" area on your body. I would STRONGLY sudgest either treating from your mouth or left shoulder. You can keep your treats on your right side but when you pull out a treat bring it up to your mouth so she sees it there then slide it down your left shoulder along the in-seam of your pants to her mouth. This is the area you want her to "target" and look for position, not the fornt of your body or right side which will wrap her forward.

 

Another thing you can do, which also helps with rear and lateral work is put a leash on he rbuckle collar and put it behind you, holding it in your right hand. You don't have to do this all the time but it will help pull her back into position a little better. You are trying to help her learn where she needs to be.

 

She has great enthusiasm! and would make a nice little competiton dog!!! You of course don't have to follow my advice but coming from someone who competes at a high level these are just a few sudjestions.

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Another thing very popular and motivational in the competition world is having an enthusiastic release and start to your heeling. My dog learn a release command, that has ALOT of high value associated with it!!! When we having been heeling for a little while or in your case with a newer dog you want to have them release UP and in heel postion. So in if you are using food raise it at about the seam of your pants but just enough over the dogs head for her to jump up a little and assign a release word! Follow with breaking and playing or a jackpot of treats!!! It works great! I often will do this at random points! Always keeps the dog charged up and guessing!!!

 

Eventually you reward once and awhile instead of every time for the release so the act of releasing, jumping up and playing afterwards still has it's value!

 

This is an excellent tool for when you go in the ring!!! I use it ALL the time!!! After and exercise I release and my dog is all charged up and with me ready to go on to the next thing!!! I re-inforce this when showing in Rally alot as a prep for more advanced work!

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(psst shepherdess - I'm a certified professional dog trainer. :rolleyes: )

 

I understand what you're saying about position - like I said, we're still in the clean up stage. The position thing was actually the main reason why I videoed the work we were doing since I wanted a better idea of where we were in the clean up process. Am I incorrect in thinking that heel is usually dog's shoulder in line with your pant seam? That's how I was taught years ago.

 

Right now I'm focusing on agility and heeling is just for fun and use in the real world, so we'll keep plugging along where we are - no rush and no need to use physical prompts or completely change my reward system (I have really bad associations with spitting food due to the original competition obedience class I took 10 years ago that used jerk and pull methods and demotivated me and my dog horribly so that's not really an option at all for me).

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Maggiedog- Being a CPDT doesn't mean anything in terms of competition work, which I guess was the purpose of this thread? Someone possibly interested in Novice level obedience, maybe wanting to compete?

 

A title such as CPDT or APDT doesn't compare to a lifetime working with and competing succesfully with dogs. But I do admire you working with your dogs and you seem like a very good and enthusiastic trainer. I love that you are devoted to your dogs and knowing someone who takes the time/energy to do that, what more can one ask for.

 

FYI, ideal heel position places the dogs ear with the seam of your pants. In theory, anything from the dogs nose to the front of the shoulder is heel position but Z's position would be considered forging aloy of the time and her body is not in line with you, so she would get points off. Just trying to help :rolleyes:

 

Happy heeling, and good luck with all else! Your little dog seems like fun, and cute to boot!!!

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Exactly. Don't even worry about distractions until he really understands heel and can do so for a little bit of duration with enthusiasm and confidence. Then it is best to add distractions as gradually as possible.

 

Here I will strongly disagree with you RB. If you take the time to teach something then add distractions you have to back peddle a lot more. Put the distractions there from the onset, if they are too much back the dog off and build. Once a dog learns to tune out the environment the learning curve is huge. Now, I am talking about competitive obedience, not CPE, Rally and things of that nature. IMO if you are going to take the time to train then why not train for 40 point heeling to begin with .....

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(psst shepherdess - I'm a certified professional dog trainer. :rolleyes: )

 

I understand what you're saying about position - like I said, we're still in the clean up stage. The position thing was actually the main reason why I videoed the work we were doing since I wanted a better idea of where we were in the clean up process. Am I incorrect in thinking that heel is usually dog's shoulder in line with your pant seam? That's how I was taught years ago.

 

Right now I'm focusing on agility and heeling is just for fun and use in the real world, so we'll keep plugging along where we are - no rush and no need to use physical prompts or completely change my reward system (I have really bad associations with spitting food due to the original competition obedience class I took 10 years ago that used jerk and pull methods and demotivated me and my dog horribly so that's not really an option at all for me).

 

Erin, heel position is anywhere from their shoulder to their nose. Be very careful about allowing her shoulder at your leg. I have one that I will allow to position there, he has heads up (will drown if it rains) attention. I will be and have been busted when by chance he drops his head - he's forged! Another that will wrap my leg, no bumping, and backing him off was a battle I wasn't willing to get into. So, with this one I "never" fed from the off side as that only asked for more from him.

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You want to train and reward the correct position right off the bat, because when competing the dog will often vary front or back a little. When training for competition, your little problems in practice become BIG problems in a competition environment!!

 

 

But if accept a postion that is even slightly on the verge of forged, I guarentee you the dog will be forging in the ring. For competition you always have to try to train one step ahead.

 

My first dog had a lagging problem at times, it presented itself in training here and there but would show up 10 fold in actualy competition!! So I had to prpare for that in training!

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