When to know to perservere or quit agility with young bc!

[Conner22]

Thanx guys! I'm loving the suggestions. I'm definitely going to give it a try! (What rootbeer wrote!).... We just came off a break, so i will try alot more reinforcing and simplifying....

We DO have fun...when its going well... but as you all seem to have noticed, it can be very frustrating at times... and of course THAT is NEVER fun for either of us!

If I notice stress still after the fun and reinforcing excersizes, I'll try the break. I really like the idea of rewarding for the bar- he would totally get that too- that it's not a big deal its on the floor, and it'd be easy to teach a thinker like him not to touch the bar when jumping later on after the stress is gone.

I also REALLY wanna try handling with no bars, and introduce the bars as his confidence builds! This WILL definitly simplify things, and i think I'll see alot of good response from this! Simplifying things helps him the most, and this would let him focus on moving with me vs EVERYTHING!

[jenkshipley]

We DO have fun...when its going well... but as you all seem to have noticed, it can be very frustrating at times... and of course THAT is NEVER fun for either of us!

If I notice stress still after the fun and reinforcing excersizes, I'll try the break.

 

It's hard to know what exactly is going on with your dog again without meeting you, him, seeing him work and watching his use of his body. That being said, I don't think bars on the ground or a break will fix what seems to be wrong, which is - in my opinion - at some point along the way, either your dog decided agility was not motivational or you weren't. No offense intended here, it happens all of the time to all kinds of people with all kinds of dogs. The trick in my experience is to change the dog's perspective of work. It must become play. I have found that starting a give and take kind of relationship with you dog and agility works best to fix this problem with any dog with toy drive.

 

Does your dog play fetch with a Frisbee or a ball?

 

If so, then every time he wants you to throw the toy, he needs to do a piece of equipment for you. Every time you play fetch with your dog it should involve equipment. You do this tunnel, I'll throw your Frisbee. Take this jump, I'll throw your Frisbee, etc. Eventually, you can easily withhold the reward for a knocked bar or a missed contact or any behavior that isn't the correct behavior, without added correction. The desire for the toy helps take the dog's focus off of thinking about being stressed, allows him to deal with the fact that he made a mistake and repeat the behavior and also helps to build drive for the equipment that he is doing in order to get the toy.

 

I train all of my contacts, table, jump grids, tunnels, and eventually weavepoles throwing my dog's toys as a reward. Once I have really good equipment = toy reward skills I use the toy placed on the ground as a target to train a lot of my one jump work as well as all of my jump grids. I put it at the end of sequences, drop it after directional commands, place it in areas where I want to teach send behavior, etc.

 

I think if you simply stop training at all and spend a month or two with one tunnel, one jump and maybe a training board for a contact, and teach your dog that he will get his toy thrown once he completes a piece of equipment and gradually build from there that you will see an entirely different dog.

 

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

[mum24dog]

My feeling on this, is that you just need to back off the "criteria" and allow the dog to run. You will be amazed if you do not micro manage, that at first the dog may still lack in enthusiasm, for instance, coming down for the 2 o 2 o, but as you keep trucking, he will let his worry go. Agility is about FUN for the dogs, period. I was big into agility, until I saw a big change coming to the sport, which was micro-managing, and forgetting about the ultimate goal- a fun sport to do with your dog. Competition is a good thing, as long as you keep it all in perspective. Too many people suck the fun out of agility for their dogs by wanting perfection every time. If the dog is not having fun, you are doing something wrong. That's the bottom line.

 

Well said.

The more I've learned about agility over the years, the more determined I am to do less formal training at a very young age if I ever get a pup rather than more.

I will play foundation games but there is no way I'm going to start following this training programme or that.

IME training the dog only goes so far - then good handling takes over. Dogs should be given credit for being able to figure things out for themselves, given good guidance from the handler.

There seems to be a lot of brainwashing and pressure that success depends on following one agility guru or another and it just isn't true.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

You are getting lots of great input from people who know what they are talking about. I don't know very much at all about agility, but our trainer Shelly does (Shelly's training all of us; she runs with Juno, and me with Daisy). My feeling is that you might want to stop focusing on learning stuff in agility for a while, and just focus on having total fun with it. Later let the learning creep back in. Juno's 22 months old. Here's how she learns -- no firm orders, no corrections, no pressure, just a ton of fun and you get the good toy if you do it right. Juno is hugely enthusiastic, and I credit the "it's all good" atmosphere around her. Look how she keeps trying to get the weaves, and has a ball the whole time --

 

My kind of training - and a dog very like ours.

There's no rush to get everything perfect as soon as possible. In fact delaying specific agility training until the worst of the adolescent stage is past can make progress so much easier and quicker.

 

Pam

[ShoresDog]

In fact delaying specific agility training until the worst of the adolescent stage is past can make progress so much easier and quicker.

Oh please, when can I look forward to that happening??

 

Yep, for now, we owners of young dogs, let's let go of worries, let 'er rip, and have fun! Then, if the success happens, it will be sweet. If it doesn't, we'll still be the winners because we had fun!

[cookieboy]

Sounds like Aslan lacks confidence and relies on you to direct every move- clicking for a bounce etc. He second guesses himself- uh oh, is this right? A few suggestions, coming from someone who had to undo several years of demotivating my first agility dog :

 

1- Allow him to "never be wrong" by playing the 100 things to do with a box game -teaches him it's OK to experiment and he gets rewarded for doing something that he dreams up. This game encourages him to do something different rather than obsesssing on doing it exactly the same each time.

 

2- He doesn't seem interested in a static target, so use a tossed one. When a dog is chasing something, he isn't over thinking it. The exercises you are doing ar stressing him, so change the exercise.

 

3- Build drive for a static target by playing games with a food filled toy. Tossing it just a few feet away while holding Aslan back, getting him excited and racing him to the food toy, and then treating him out of it. At first allow him to grab it before you, but start moving faster so he has to drive to it. Eventually allow him to dive after it with you staying stationary. Eventually try placing the food target, hold Aslan back, and excitedly allow him to run to it. Then start to build distance. The point is you are no longer directing him, but playing a game that is fun.

 

4- Redirect your efforts into making agility play for Aslan, and take a break from making agility mathamatics for your dog.

 

5- Try using hoops (and I don't do NADAC myself!) as an obstacle. You can work on crosses, chasing tossed toys moving away from you etc. without the dropped bars stressing you or Aslan.

 

6- Don't correct an error by repeating the exercise right away. As for something simple that you can reward, and then try the exercise again.

 

7- You stated Aslan would repeat an exercise 10 times correctly, but err when one tiny thing was changed- sounds like you are patterning him to an exact behavior by repeating it too often, and he anxiously tries to repeat the pattern after you have changed it. To get him to generalize, vary the exercise after perhaps only 2 correct repetitions.

 

8- One last thought- My BC Oreo also had a lot of knocked bars in his early agility years. We managed to work through that also, but he also is not built with a strong hind end. Just recently I discovered he has luxating hocks, which meant that he had to learn to compensate for lack of propulsion from his hocks, which eventually took a toll on his back muscles- and the bar knocking occasionally resurfaces. I wish I had known earlier in his career about the exerises to build up his core strength as you are now doing. So, has any mention been made about Aslan's hocks? It was also suggested that my Oreo wear hock wraps while training or running, so I recently purchased some neoprene supports.

 

Kathy and Oreo MX MXJ MXF APD

[herdcentral]

I believe I made several mistakes with my BC. I started serious training to young, and didnt make it fun enough.

 

My previous dog found agility extremely fun and was full of confidence but I started her as an older dog with a great partnership and years of doing fun things together already as history.

 

I just assumed my new pup was going to be the same. Not so. I did a rethink and she loves her ball so we have a fine old time. I didnt mind if she knocks bars, I was just happy when she was enjoying herself. As time progressed I still reward her for doing a good squence even if a bar comes down, but I am especially pleased if the bars stay up and we go and have an extra long play with the ball. Although I never pointed it out to her I think she knows the difference. She can sense when I am thinking bad thoughts so I fill my head with laughing and do all the things she loves while sneaking agility into the mix.

 

I taught her high fives which she loves. I also dont get overly loudly vocal as this demotivates her, but I laugh and whisper (which she loves) and do a few gentle high fives with her.

 

At meal times I race her to her food bowl. She had zero interest in static targets, so I took her away from her food bowl at dinner time and set her up in a stay. I would them lead out and call and run as well I would let her win and over time would sometimes get there first and pick up the bowl. She soon caught on and now she drives flat out for her bowl and any other target I put up around the agility ring.

 

I dont think she is going to be the natural agility loving dog my first dog was and maybe if she likes herding better we will do that instead but she is very much a different dog to the early days. She is nearly 3 and has both her novice titles and legs in open and excellent agility. I only do trials with her at most once every month to 2 months.

 

I have these rules - think fun, put a smile on your face at all time, and make agility and play seamless. My dog really responds to this.

 

I have been building core muscles on the clean run egg ball. All my dogs love it, even my above mentioned BC. She has got very good on it and whirls and twirls with grest ease.

[Tassie]

Again, without seeing exactly what's going on, I would tend to agree with those who are saying the whole thing needs to be more fun for you and the dog.

 

I'd be wondering if it would be worth consciously doing lots of high energy foundation flat work with the dog for a while. Circle work - and you can do some of your handling stuff there. Rear cross drills - including racing for a toy. None of this will do any harm, and could help. It also takes pressure off both of you.

 

I'm being very conservative - perhaps over-conservative - with my new boy. He's 16 months old, and has had little formal work. We've done some flat work (not enough), some targeting , had a play with tunnel and table and tyre (hoop), some 2o2o on a travel plank, some rear end awareness work, some balance and wobble board work - and we're just now starting working through Susan Salo type jumping program. None of it has been very formal - we're just having lots of fun. I'm hoping that as we progress, he'll just see it as an extension of the games we play with toys and for food rewards. Because when all's said and done, that's what it is for me and my dogs.

[pammyd]

As others have said it is v difficult without seeing you

3 months for starting agility training!! wow thats young, sounds like you had high expectations for this dog

 

In class we say pretty much every mistake is the handlers fault. Ben was a pretty easy dog to train but Mia is a little different, interestingly all the dogs in Mias class are chalanging

If a pole drops we look at where we were standing and what we were saying - instructions too late or too early?? Did we move or turn at a wrong time?

Also pretty much all the dogs in the class need movment from the handlers, except one who looses the plot if the handler moves with him. We all work on moving less and he works on moving more - all in little steps

But why not run with your dog up a line of jumps and chuck the tuggy over the last one??

 

I find it amazing teaching dogs to jump! The only jump training I do with mine is a run in the woods, I practise sending left and rights round trees, contacts are stairs or tree logs

 

Also you say you do something 10 times, are you drilling lots in class?? Dosent sound like much fun for a dog lacking in confidence

 

I would say find a different class, become more rewarding and more fun! a bar down gets a treat, no bar down gets 4 treats, a great combination of 2 jumps gets a tuggy, then do 1 jump, then 3, then 5 then 1, rewarding lots each time

Train FUN first then work on fancy handling. TBH Ben learnt a rear cross without me trying, he couldnt do it, I couldnt be botherd training it, then one day in a comp I had got on the wrong side of him, I carried on, so did he. Until they are confident and driving to the jump infront you crossing behind is going to be stressful

[Mariji]

In class we say pretty much every mistake is the handlers fault.

 

Perfect! When my dog does something wrong, I will look at where I was standing, what I said or how I directed her. If I can't find anything wrong, it is simply because she doesn't understand and that is my fault again for not teaching her. There is nothing wrong with your puppy, he just needs confidence. So you need to take the best exercises you think are suitable from what everyone has suggested (and there are some brilliant ideas) and work on them. I know it is hard, before I couldn't really say too much as both my dogs are fairly confident but I recently got a rescue that is 7 and she is in training for agility too. It is going to be a very very long road with her as she is the softest dog I have ever seen. She clings to my lap and won't leave for anything, even when I'm standing up she stand on her back legs and wraps her front ones around my waist. Take it little successes at a time. For now I am just happy with the fact I can get this dog to let go of me for 5 secs. She's the sweetest thing on the planet but just needs to learn to be confident.

[mum24dog]

7- You stated Aslan would repeat an exercise 10 times correctly, but err when one tiny thing was changed- sounds like you are patterning him to an exact behavior by repeating it too often, and he anxiously tries to repeat the pattern after you have changed it. To get him to generalize, vary the exercise after perhaps only 2 correct repetitions.

 

If there is really no underlying physical problem (and I would still be trying to rule out back and lower leg issues and get a second opinion on the HD) then this could be the key.

 

Repeating an exercise 10 times is way too many for any dog. Even if a dog will do it, it doesn't mean it should.

Repetition is what causes long term damage and, as the OP is finding, can be very demotivating.

We all know how easily BCs develop patterns of behaviour - the key is to develop a dog that can adapt to change and constant drilling will not do that.

 

A robot dog is not what is wanted for agility. Keep them guessing.

 

Pam