The power of Positive dog training

[alligande]

As you all know I just got Rievaulx a week ago and I have been amazed at the speed I have been able to train him basic things using positive methods. He is the first dog I have had who has been a "blank canvas" he is a sponge. I use positive methods with Brody but he was three when he came to live us so there was lots ( and still is ) rehab work. I have to confess that it was training for agility that really changed my outlook, realizing that we were team mates and it had to be fun for both of us. If it worked for agility with all its complexities of course it would work for basic manners.

 

I have been reading a lot of books about training and raising puppies and I have been struck by how odd the old style obedience training was yet most of us have used some variations of them. I watched the Monks of New Skete PBS video and was amazed at the change from loving gentle puppy raisers to the techniques used with the adult dogs. Why did anyone ever think it was a good idea to grab a dog by the scruff for small infractions.

 

As I was walking today, I had a puppy bouncing alongside me, just where a dog is supposed to be and all it took was a few kibble and praise. It took months before my rescue GSDx walked nicely on a leash using the leash correction method, and truthfully we never really got there it was just adequate. This was in 1995 and the books available at the time were still telling you not use treats as the dogs became dependent on them. I never did buy into the shacking, rolling etc as all I had to do was say NO or even just raise an eyebrow and she was quivering mess. (Bad first home)

 

The same could be said of all the basic commands, teaching Jester was a struggle, she was not a BC but she had the GSD desire to please and knowing what I know now I think I could have taught her all the basics so easily and without the frustration we both endured. I have few regrets in life despite the many stupid things I have done, but I really wish I could turn the clock back on this one and restart my life with Jester.

[bc4pack]

Have you found Clickersolutions yet? Website and the Yahoo Group....

[ejano]

The thing about Border Collies is that they really want to please you....and to do something -- anything with you....this makes training them a different kind of challenge because you've always got to be thinking up something new. Today its actually sunny and above freezing so we were out tromping around in the snow doing weaving and spirals around the traffic cones. We've been practicing inside in the tv room but its not the same as being in the great outdoors and all of them couldn't wait for their turn and did beautifully. Even Ladybug insisted on her turn, though leading her is like carrying a feather, you don't even know she's there.

 

I've never believed in bullying an animal. If you ask them something of which they are capable in a way that they understand, they will generally cooperate. Except a cat - there's not much you can do with a cat unless its their idea.

 

I do clicker training with Robin. Brodie is so very eager to do anything that he responds quickly to verbal commands. I train them all together and I didn't want to be clicking one for something right while the other was lolling around performing some behavior that I didn't want to capture.

 

Liz

[mum24dog]

I didn't want to be clicking one for something right while the other was lolling around performing some behavior that I didn't want to capture.

 

The clicker only works as reinforcement if followed by a reward. Dogs soon learn to distinguish between a clicker meant for them and one that is being used for another dog - no reward means it wasn't their click so it didn't mark a behaviour that should be repeated.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

The clicker only works as reinforcement if followed by a reward. Dogs soon learn to distinguish between a clicker meant for them and one that is being used for another dog - no reward means it wasn't their click so it didn't mark a behaviour that should be repeated.

 

Pam

 

LOL!! In classes I find that this holds true, but out of context my dogs will respond to any click! Last year at camp we were walking along this dirt road and someone just up the hill from up clicked her dog. My three started to make a beeline for her! They did call off, but it was really funny. They were like, "they're CLICKER TRAINING up there!! Let's go! WooooooooooHoooooooo!!"

 

I actually don't use a clicker when I work with more than one of my dogs at a time. While they understand perfectly that a click is not for them if someone else clicks, if I click, they think it's for them. I can always flush out a dog who didn't get shut up in a bedroom when I go to train by starting to work with a clicker with the dog that I'm going to work wtih. One click and the escapee has come to join the fun!

 

I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, just that my preference is one dog when I'm training with the clicker.

[mum24dog]

My dogs are like yours I guess - if they hear a click anywhere they'll pay attention until they've located the source and realised it's not for them.

I normally only clicker train one at a time too. It's not that they don't understand which dog the click is for (it's the one I'm looking at), it's just that they all go nuts as soon as I pick it up and get in the way.

I could train them all together with the clicker but prefer to concentrate on one at a time.

From the human end, clicker training often needs a great deal of observation and quick thinking and I'm not great at either so I prefer no distractions.

 

Pam

[alligande]

I have been using a modified version, just using my voice "yes" as my older dog Brody hates anything to do with clickers and I want to be consistent. I have no idea what Brodys issue is, his former family told me that they did not use a clicker, it just scares the hell out of him. Even if it is on youtube and he is not in the office. This is one of those cases where I decided to pick my battles and a clicker was not worth it.

[Root Beer]

In case you were wondering most clicker based exercises can be done using a marker word. It will usually take longer to train to fluency, but it is certainly possible. So, clickersolutions might still have many ideas that you can use even if you elect not to use an actual clicker.

 

One of the greatest joys - I find - of being a reinforcement based trainer is that there are so many different ways to go about training. I am always learning a new technique or a new way to apply something I've been doing. A new way to use a reinforcer, a new way to apply a marker, a new way to condition a behavior or attitude, a new way to sharpen skills, etc.!!

 

I'm always looking forward to whatever I'm going to learn next!

[mum24dog]

In case you were wondering most clicker based exercises can be done using a marker word.

 

You can but using a marker word still carries the disadvantage of inconsistency and lack of neutrality.

With a sound sensitive dog I would try other mechanical sounds before settling on a verbal marker as a last resort. There are several variations of the standard box clicker that make different noises and with different volume levels.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

You can but using a marker word still carries the disadvantage of inconsistency and lack of neutrality.

With a sound sensitive dog I would try other mechanical sounds before settling on a verbal marker as a last resort. There are several variations of the standard box clicker that make different noises and with different volume levels.

 

Pam

 

I would do the same, but there are some people who really are set against using a clicker of any kind for various and sundry reasons.

 

While it would not be my own choice, and I would encourage any of my own students to try different things like a really quiet i-clicker, a cricket clicker, a snapple lid, an oven mitt, etc., in a case where someone has made up his or her mind that he or she is not willing to trying a clicker in any form, then I do encourage that person to do the best he or she can with a verbal marker. There are disadvantages, but it will still work, especially for manners type training where intricate precision does not come into play like it does in dog sports.

 

I'm not saying that any of this applies to the OP, of course!! Just talking, as usual . . .

[mum24dog]

While it would not be my own choice, and I would encourage any of my own students to try different things like a really quiet i-clicker, a cricket clicker, a snapple lid, an oven mitt, etc., in a case where someone has made up his or her mind that he or she is not willing to trying a clicker in any form, then I do encourage that person to do the best he or she can with a verbal marker. There are disadvantages, but it will still work, especially for manners type training where intricate precision does not come into play like it does in dog sports.

 

Agreed - I'd rather someone adopted the philosophy of clicker training without necessarily doing it by the book than for them not to try it at all.

 

Pam

[alligande]

I tried all sorts of variations of clickers, different types, ball point pens etc. The concept of clicker training intriques me, I just can't use it with my dog. The odd thing is, in daily life he is not that noise sensitive, its just clicker noises, I still think his first family clicker trained him in obedience class and it just has bad memories. I used to ride and have always made clicking noises to get my dogs attention. Brody has no problem with this but when I combine the voice click with a treat, he vanishes. "Yes" and treat does not cause anxiety.

I have found that I have taught Brody tricks etc just by using rewards for the right behavior. Once he figures out what I am looking for it does not take long for him to learn the trick. We have been training in agility together for over year, and I really don't think we have penalized by not using a clicker. He is keen to learn and work with me, and is really much better at agility than I am

I know what I am doing is not perfect but it is working for us. Get a rescue dog and you have to work with what you got! I wanted to clicker train Reivaulx but I realized I could only do it when Brody was not present and that did not seem to be consistent.

[ziggzmom]

I do encourage that person to do the best he or she can with a verbal marker. There are disadvantages, but it will still work, especially for manners type training where intricate precision does not come into play like it does in dog sports.

 

Hi,

 

The clicker is one of many tools we can use to help our dogs learn. But it is definately possible to train the intricate precision required for dog sports to a dog without using one....At least I thought it was-LOL....

 

I've been competing in obedience for over 20 years and have earned UD's/UDX titles along the way(lots of intricate precision in utility!) without using a clicker. I think paying attention to the small details(laying a good foundation) is what gets you the precision and confidence your dog needs to be successful in dog sports, no matter what sport you compete in=)

 

Janet

[mum24dog]

I tried all sorts of variations of clickers, different types, ball point pens etc. The concept of clicker training intriques me, I just can't use it with my dog. The odd thing is, in daily life he is not that noise sensitive, its just clicker noises

 

So try something that doesn't make a clicking sound.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

The clicker is one of many tools we can use to help our dogs learn. But it is definately possible to train the intricate precision required for dog sports to a dog without using one....Janet

 

It is, but you can get a lot more precise in things to teach than is needed for dog sports, including obedience.

Mary Ray won the Crufts Obedience Dog and Bitch titles, competed in top grade agility and established HTM before she ever picked up a clicker. She sees the advantages now though, although she describes herself as a clicker user rather than a clicker trainer.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

I've been competing in obedience for over 20 years and have earned UD's/UDX titles along the way(lots of intricate precision in utility!) without using a clicker. I think paying attention to the small details(laying a good foundation) is what gets you the precision and confidence your dog needs to be successful in dog sports, no matter what sport you compete in=)

 

Sure, it can be done. Many have done it.

 

But personally, I would not chose to do without a clicker or a myriad of reasons! Precision actually not being top among those!

[desertranger]

Not me. none of that pampering crap for my dogs. It's whips and chains and regular beatings along with pot bangings in the middle of the night and during meals. :ROFL:

 

 

Actually I use a mix of traditional and modern methods. Lots of love, massaging, TTouch, physical contact and Control Unleashed. I try to do all training off lead but there is some on lead. He does something right he gets rewards from a quick ear scratch ad a good boy to a jackpot pile of treats depending on what he did right. If he doesn't do it right he gets a nonono silly dog or I tap him gently with my shepherds crook substitute or I ignore him completely. We have had stare downs. He wont bring me something but want;'s me to horw him a ball. So we stare at each pother and wait it out. We seem to be well connected although there are few problems we are working on. Still he's he's happy when training, smiles and wags his tail and his focus is coming along.

[alligande]

So try something that doesn't make a clicking sound.

 

Pam

 

Any suggestions? I have no ideas and I never thought of it nor has any one suggested it before.

[mbc1963]

Any suggestions? I have no ideas and I never thought of it nor has any one suggested it before.

 

Hmm... I think almost any noise would be OK. Honestly, I suspect that a little clicking noise I make with my mouth (the "get on, horse" sound) would probably be as effective as a clicker sound. Not as loud, though. Try any random sounds you can make!

 

I never clicker trained, but I do have a definite high-pitched "good job" that I use in lieu of a clicker. Buddy seems to get it and associate it with occasional treats.

 

Mary

[ziggzmom]

Sure, it can be done. Many have done it.

 

But personally, I would not chose to do without a clicker or a myriad of reasons! Precision actually not being top among those!

 

Hi,

 

I only mentioned precision because that was a point you made regarding the clicker....I'm not opposed to the clicker at all, I know lots of people use them and are very happy with the results. There are so many 'tools' we can use training our dogs, find what works best for your particular dog=)

 

Janet

[desertranger]

Sound of a clicker drive me crazy. I say good dog.

[Root Beer]

Sound of a clicker drive me crazy. I say good dog.

 

The sound of good dog drives me crazy. I use a clicker.

[geonni banner]

The sound of good dog drives me crazy. I use a clicker.

 

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[mum24dog]

Any suggestions? I have no ideas and I never thought of it nor has any one suggested it before.

 

A small buzzer, or whistle?

I'm sure you'd be able to find a "clicker" that makes a different sound like the Whizz Click,

Or even a light such as can be used to clicker train a deaf dog, although that wouyld have its restrictions.

 

Pam