Long Haired/Smooth Coated Border Collies

[WildFlower]

BCSam - I love the pictures. Makes me wish I could go back to England. I just loved it.

 

I have my first smooth coat bc, Devon. So far, he hasn't been affected any differently by the cold compared to my medium coat, Daisy.

[mum24dog]

Border Collies are not recognized by the Canadian Kennel Club...So we have been kind of lucky.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the BC is now a CKC listed breed with a Barbie breed standard.

The CKC has decided to allow BCs to show in conformation and compete in its other events.

 

Pam

[Carson Crazies]

I have two smooth coated dogs. One of them is *really* slick - and he's very lean. He does seem to feel the cold more (I could actually feel him shivering the other night at bedtime), and he never develops much of an undercoat (although if he was kenneled outside he probably would). He handles heat fine. My other smooth coated dog is thicker coated, and she seems to handle the cold better, but doesn't handle the heat as well - particularly when the heat is combined with mental stress.

 

As for some white being mandatory... there is no mandatory anything when it comes to colors or coats in working bred border collies. I have seen a few with no white, and many more (like my Linc) with minimal white. I believe littermate Bart had only just the tiniest bit of white like a toe and a tiny diamond patch on his chest.

 

Linc, with minimal white, and a curly bustle-butt (photo by Dan King):

 

 

And since I'm in a picture mood, here's my slickest dog, Nick, at his LEAST slick time - right before he blew what little undercoat he has (this photo by Dan King also):

 

[eclare]

Daisy is obviously a mix, but is super slick.

 

Nonetheless she has a very thick undercoat and absolutely thrives in cold weather. She has a much harder time in the summer and tries to spend as much time as possible lying in puddles to keep cool.

[mum24dog]

None of mine feel the cold but the ones that suffer most from the heat are the 2 short coated ginger dogs.

The very hairy ginger one is fine, as are the two black and whites.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

We can thank the kennel clubs and dog shows for that.

 

J.

 

I think that is a great shame, its almost as though they are stating that if the BC isn't X Tall, X Weight, X amount of hair, X shape nose, X shaped ears, then it isn't a BC, forget about what the dog was originally bred for, i.e., a super quick thinking and highly energetic herding machine that lives to please its master, if it doesn't fit into our little box then it isn't a proper BC.....

 

I think its a great shame that people are being led to believe that a BC is only a BC if it fits into the Kennel Club scheme of things....

[BorderCollieSam]

I don't think some amount of white is mandatory. You rarely see a dog without at least a tiny amount of white, but that doesn't mean there aren't dogs out there with no white, and no one would say they weren't a border collie because of that lack of white.

 

J.

 

I think i recall reading something some time ago which stated farmers prefer a dog with more black than white but only because they can see the dog easier amongst the sheep when working.

[BorderCollieSam]

No - see the previous replies in this thread.

As you've noticed, those Lakeland collies are short coated and you get even more with short coats in Scotland.

We've got dogs in our agility club from farms in the high Pennines - all short coated.

Those are the colder parts of the UK, but places where folk are practically minded.

 

Pam

 

We had a snow fall last night (around 8 ") and temperatures fell to -4 (obviously not cold compared with some parts of the US) and i took Sam out at 22:30 last night, it was the first snow he has ever seen, and he loved it, he was running wide circles continuously and biting at the snow, we were out in the countryside until nearly 12pm and he didn't show any signs of chill/discomfort.

[Lenajo]

I think i recall reading something some time ago which stated farmers prefer a dog with more black than white but only because they can see the dog easier amongst the sheep when working.

 

When you are doing real work on a farm, you don't see the dog a lot of the time. Sheep far away? Their behavior will tell you if the dog is near, and what he's doing! Color is irrelevant.

[BorderCollieSam]

BCSam - I love the pictures. Makes me wish I could go back to England. I just loved it.

 

I have my first smooth coat bc, Devon. So far, he hasn't been affected any differently by the cold compared to my medium coat, Daisy.

 

Glad you liked them

[Kathy Chittenden]

http://www.bordercollierescue.org/vivbilli...tion/TheBC.html

 

I thought I had read somewhere (hard copy book) that the smoothies were originally mixed with pointers. I found this article on-line that mentions pointers as well.

 

Interesting article!

 

Kathy

[PSmitty]

My slickity slick BC mix does seem much more affected by the heat/cold, than does my smooth BC, who has an undercoat. Oh, Alex (with the undercoat) sheds like a mo-fo. So, smooth does not always = non shedding. I know nobody mentioned that, but I felt like whining.

[mum24dog]

http://www.bordercollierescue.org/vivbilli...tion/TheBC.html

 

I thought I had read somewhere (hard copy book) that the smoothies were originally mixed with pointers. I found this article on-line that mentions pointers as well.

 

Interesting article!

 

Kathy

 

I think you have to remember that accounts of the origins of older breeds are usually speculative.

 

The writer says -

 

These packs of Pointers were reputed to have been very stylish, beautiful, quality animals, often with a white forepaw or chest.

It’s obvious to my eye that over the centuries, noblemen's hunting dogs interbred and inbred - accidentally and on purpose - with the Mastiff type of dog, to breed the longer nosed Collie that we have today

The Black pointer is often obvious in today's smooth coated Border Collies. These dogs are often much quicker than the rougher coated variety who could have Spaniel and Setter way back in their breeding.

 

There's nothing definite there. She may well be right but I doubt whether anyone will ever know for certain because creating a working breed is rarely (if ever) as simple as crossing breed A with breed B.

 

It can also be misleading to refer to Mastiffs, Pointers, Spaniels etc because they would have been very different from the breeds of the same names today.

 

Pam

[geonni banner]

This may help to answer the question of the OP re: origins of smooth/ rough coats in the BC. Found it online. (Maybe the BC Museum site?)

 

Where Did the Border Collie Come From?

 

USBCC Newsletter, Fall 1994

 

"When he hath found the [sheep], he keepeth sure and fast silence, he stayeth his steps and will proceed no further and with a close, covert, watching eye, layeth his belly to the ground." Caius. ". . . the dog is apt to break point if the [sheep] runs off, loop out in front, and reestablish point farther on." Charles Fergus. If you have seen working Border Collies, you may recognize these descriptions of 'eye'; you may or may not recognize that the word " sheep" in both these quotations was originally "bird." These are descriptions of good birddogs or gundogs--pointers and setters.

The concept of the "purebred" dog, the Dog Show, didn't originate until the nineteenth century. Before that time, people bred dogs for their own purposes. If the pups were dual purpose dogs who could both hunt and herd, so much the better.

Dogs were neither spayed nor neutered, and probably many ran loose. Breeds were therefore mixed according to the dogs' choice as well as that of their owners. Even after the formation of the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society) and the stud book for Border Collies, dogs were still admitted if they could prove working ability. Quality of working dogs has always been more important than "genetic purity." We don't have records of all the dogs that went into the formation of the modern Border Collie, but we can draw some conclusions from genetic traits that are still in the breed.

In the Middle Ages, a type of spaniel was bred, the ancestor of some of our modern spaniels, that would naturally crouch when it located game. Hunters had no very accurate weapons for shooting small birds at a distance; they would throw a net over the crouching dog and the birds together. This "instinct" to crouch is probably the origin of the Border Collie crouch. Ever look at the color pattern on a Springer Spaniel? It is still present in the Border Collie, too.

Later on, the setter or pointer was developed, with the behavior described in the first paragraph. The hunting instinct of the primitive dog was inhibited, the dog would stop, stay back, and point to its prey instead of attacking it. There is little doubt that this is the origin of "eye" in the Border Collie. The strong-eyed dog that refuses to get up and move its sheep is no different from the bird dog that is "staunch on point." In the hunting dog it is an asset; in the sheepdog it goes too far. It is the same response. The original cross of birddog/sheepdog may have been accidental, it may have been a search for the multi-purpose dog. Whatever the reason, this behavior, added to the sheepdog, made a better working dog--one that was more effective and easier on the sheep than the old style that probably moved sheep by barking and biting.

We know that the Gordon Setter was created when the Duke of Gordon bred his good setting dog to his shepherd's good herding bitch in the early 1700's. Why would he have done this? History tells that the herding bitch was already an excellent hunting dog; the shepherd refused to sell, so the Duke's only recourse was to breed, and to be satisfied with the pups.

In a similar way, the greyhound and whippet were crossed with the collie. If the greyhound was faster than the sheepdog, she was bred to the sheepdog, and the pups were faster sheepdogs than the parent. They might also be smarter and have more stamina than the greyhound. (This was still going on when Glyn Jones' father was raising and training Border Collies in Wales.) These mixed dogs were called lurchers, and many of them and their descendants ended up registered as Border Collies. One of the common ear types in modern Border Collies clearly comes from the greyhound or whippet.

Even within the ISDS registry we can identify additions of Bearded Collies to the breed. The most famous is S.E. Batty's Maddie, bred by the great W.B. Telfer, and carrying the ISDS registry number 8! She is the great great great grandmother of Wilson's Cap (3036) the great wartime dog who appears in so many of our modern pedigrees.

People who are unfamiliar with Border Collies often look at my two mismatched samples and say "well, they really aren't a breed, are they?" I usually, indignantly, point out that they are one of the oldest breeds, in terms of purposeful selection of breeding stock over the generations. But, in a sense, the Border Collie is not a breed, not if the definition of a breed is "a group of interbred dogs that all look alike." Not even if the definition is "a group of dogs selected for genetic purity." The Border Collie is a breed in which selection has been for behavior, performance, utility to the stock farmer and shepherd. It retains the visual characteristics of all its many ancestors, and every puppy that is born is a delightful surprise, an individual who may look like his mother and/or his father, or like no dog anyone has ever seen before.

[BustopherJones]

I don't think some amount of white is mandatory. You rarely see a dog without at least a tiny amount of white, but that doesn't mean there aren't dogs out there with no white, and no one would say they weren't a border collie because of that lack of white.

I stand corrected. I thought I remembered that, when the breed we know today as the Border Collie was first so named by James Reid, Secretary of the ISDS, in 1918 (in 1918 he described the winner of the Supreme Championship as Border Collie, although it took till 1946 before he mentioned the name Border Collie on the ISDS registration papers), any color was acceptable, but that the dog was expected at minimum to have white paws and a white tip to the tail. It appears that I was in error. (This "sometimers" is really a drag at my age...)

[geonni banner]

This is purported to be an all-black border collie, but since she came form a shelter, who knows. Pretty dog, though. Here's a link to the story if you want to read more.

 

http://olivesheroes.wordpress.com/2009/06/...-border-collie/

 

Just FYI - I once knew of a rough Collie that was all black and tan but for one hind toe.

 

[Lewis Moon]

The more Cerbie grows and the more I read, the more he looks like a smooth BC rather than a mix. I assumed, at first, that the smooth coat was inherited from another breed, but all his other physical traits are very BC. His fur is REALLY dense with a bit of rough behind his ears. Black mask, white muzzle, white around the neck and a white tipped tail.

He's still a growing boy so he may erupt into something else, but at this time, he's looking like a real smoothie. More importantly than that....he's a member of the family.

[Guest echoica]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the BC is now a CKC listed breed with a Barbie breed standard.

The CKC has decided to allow BCs to show in conformation and compete in its other events.

 

this must have been rather recent? the beginning of this year i remember reading elsewhere about them not being ckc yet *sigh*

[airbear]

this must have been rather recent? the beginning of this year i remember reading elsewhere about them not being ckc yet *sigh*

A few years ago, some obedience people approached the CKC about allowing border collies back into performance events (until the early 90s or so, they were in the Misc group). The CKC's position, apparently, was that the Misc group wasn't a parking lot for breeds that wanted only entry into certain events, so they put to a vote admission of the border collie to the CKC membership but never asked the working border collie folks. Admission in this case would include conformation. The Canadian Border Collie Association (CBCA)'s position:

 

Despite our best efforts CKC has decided to allow Border Collies to compete conformation (and all other events). While CBCA has no issue with Border Collies competing in performance events we have strong reservations about conformation showing as this will probably lead to Border Collies being bred for looks rather than work. The board feels that such showing is contrary to the objectives of CBCA. As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA.

 

However, in Canada, a breed only can be registered with a single registry (Animal Pedigree Act of Canada) and that registry for the border collie is the CBCA. The CKC recognizes CBCA-registered border collies the same way it recognizes AKC-registered border collies, though the CKC is NOT the registry. Interestingly, the AKC stopped recognizing CBCA-registered border collies some time last year - hurrah!!!

 

So yes, there is a CKC "breed standard" for the border collie. I believe it is based on the Australian show standard. The standard on file with the Animal Pedigree Act is something akin to "a medium sized dog". I like that standard better.

[juliepoudrier]

As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA.

That's awesome!

 

J.

[Guest echoica]

I just went on the CKC site and checked out these so-called standards. It is just horrible. The whole essence of what makes Border Collie's so awesome (working ability, intelligence) is not captured at all!

 

Another point I found shocking, on the aesthetic side of things, is that they only accept brown eyes for all coats except merles. There are soooo many amazing BCs out there with blue eyes or one blue eye...or in the case of one of mine...she has green eyes! I actually consider the variety of colors etc an amazing feature of BCs. It makes them even more special since they are all so different!

[mum24dog]

However, in Canada, a breed only can be registered with a single registry (Animal Pedigree Act of Canada) and that registry for the border collie is the CBCA. The CKC recognizes CBCA-registered border collies the same way it recognizes AKC-registered border collies, though the CKC is NOT the registry. Interestingly, the AKC stopped recognizing CBCA-registered border collies some time last year - hurrah!!!

 

I'm surprised that you have legislation covering pedigree registration. I can't really see why the law would want to get involved unless it is to try and prevent spurious fake registries being set up and used by the puppy farmers to bump up their prices.

 

Have I got this right? The CBCA is happy for its members to compete in CKC canine activities, but if one of those dogs is shown in conformation classes, it will withdraw registration rendering it ineligible for any CKC events? Or is it just the person showing who will lose their membership of the CBCA but the dog remains registered and therefore eligible?

 

What are the practical implications of

 

As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA.?

 

What advantages are there for a person to be a member of the CBCA?

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

(This was still going on when Glyn Jones' father was raising and training Border Collies in Wales.) These mixed dogs were called lurchers, and many of them and their descendants ended up registered as Border Collies.

 

Very interesting, my dog is from a Sheep/Cattle farmer in North Wales, possibly the dog walker i spoke to the other morning who asked if my dog was a cross lurcher/collie was very accurate in his description (see my first post).....

[BorderCollieSam]

My slickity slick BC mix does seem much more affected by the heat/cold, than does my smooth BC, who has an undercoat. Oh, Alex (with the undercoat) sheds like a mo-fo. So, smooth does not always = non shedding. I know nobody mentioned that, but I felt like whining.

 

Hi PSmitty, the photograph (the 2nd one) of your dog looks the spitting image of my Sams coat, i've taken a photo of him this morning, does 'he' have an undercoat? What does an undercoat look like?

 

[mum24dog]

Very interesting, my dog is from a Sheep/Cattle farmer in North Wales, possibly the dog walker i spoke to the other morning who asked if my dog was a cross lurcher/collie was very accurate in his description (see my first post).....

 

A lurcher crossed with a collie is still a lurcher.

However, eventually an injection of greyhound (or similar) blood followed by repeated collie only matings will result in the sight hound component becoming insignificant, and the dogs produced will be recognised as collies.

I don't suppose the shepherds who were outcrossing were bothered what their dogs were called as long as they were good workers. That's just how working dogs are created.

Sometimes you get throwbacks that are unusually leggy for a BC, possibly indicating sighthound blood somewhere - leggier than Sam looks. A lot of short coated BCs are quite small up here.

A lurcher is a sight hound crossed with a dog of another working breed, and which breed that is will depend on the job the dog is intended to do, but hunting by sight rather than scent is the key.

Bedlington terrier x whippet lurchers are quite common, for example.

They can vary from JRT x whippet to GSD x wolfhound - all lurchers.

Nowadays you still get deliberate first cross BC x usually greyhound lurchers but they are bred by lurcher people and often just look like greyhounds with BC markings.

 

You're in murky waters when you start to consider lurchers. This is one -

 

 

100% lurcher in behaviour.

Running action like a greyhound.

Small head:body ratio like a greyhound.

Ears reminiscent of greyhound or whippet.

Possible dash of BC from the white markings.

Overall appearance like a lab X!

Despite the appearance, he was a lurcher.

 

And another suspect -

 

 

Similar in size, coat, build and markings.

Main difference he has a scent hound head and brain.

He came from Ireland so a dash of lurcher is very likely and does occasionally show, but he isn't a sight hound in his hunting behaviour so isn't a lurcher.

 

I suspect that the person who you were talking to is more used to the hairier BCs from the south rather than the common working short coat you get further north.

 

Pam