Tennis Balls

[Root Beer]

Like I said "training" makes no matter how crazy he gets. Who is in charge here?

 

I don't know about anyone else, but when my dog and I are playing a game, "in charge" is pretty fluid. Sometimes I'm "in charge" and sometimes the dog is "in charge". It's actually quite a fun way to play.

 

I use toys to train, too, but my dogs and I enjoy "mindless" playtime. One of our favorite games is where all three of the boys get a ball and they caper around with them. I grab at one ball and "tug" a bit with that dog and the other two "kill" their toys and growl. It is extremely fun for all of us. In this game the dogs have to be "in charge" of themselves. They acturally remain "in possession" of their toys and that's OK. In other games the toys are "mine", but in some games they get to lead the fun. They really like it.

 

I know that's not everybody's style, but for many of us being "in charge" during a play session isn't the top priority. Sometimes it is just mindless fun. I find those moments to be golden.

 

When we play ball outdoors, there are different ways that we play. Sometimes it's "training" and they have to do behaviors before I throw. Often, though, it is really just fun and "in charge" isn't even in the picture.

 

Just another perspective on play.

[Ooky]

We do a combination of several games to play fetch, so I don't just practice mindless ball throwing. There is the wait game and then go get it, as you describe, but that actually seems more prone to injury because he dives at the ball like an insane shortstop, nose to the ground, often skidding for several feet and sometimes even missing the ball and skidding over it. My guy is nothing if not enthusiastic.

 

There is the do tricks for it before the throw game.

 

There is the boundary game, where I mark a boundary like a sidewalk and then throw the ball over it - he must run up to the boundary, lie down (not commanded) and wait, and then wait for me to go get the ball and toss it to him from across the boundary again (developed when the ball went into roads), or send him to go get it - he must watch to see which it will be if the boundary is innocuous like a sidewalk but knows NEVER is he allowed in the road.

 

There is the run over and back through a line of obstacles, like low retaining walls or logs that act as makeshift "flyball" jumps.

 

And there is the run out and throw the ball so it lands before him and bounces (yes, GASP, on purpose!) game. This one, while not as safe as the boundary game (which is the most controlled), is certainly no less safe than frisbee. Sometimes he doesn't even try for the jump, just turns and catches it in his mouth.

 

I sense judgement coming from Karen...but we are as safe as possible, and limit our sessions in number and duration, and switch up the games in a conscious effort to work all sorts of parts of him, including his brain. He jumps for the ball maybe 3 times per fetch session, and loves doing so. He has has NO issues since recovering from his surgery a year ago. The vet approves of his activtity level and finds absolutely nothing wrong with him or any of his joints. I have not seen him limp AT ALL for over a year, nor do I wish to.

[Anda]

Karen - the rubber Chuckit balls bounce really well, not like the orange street hockey balls (we're down to the very last one from the stash we got from Canada two years ago and I don't know where to find them *cheap* in US - let me know if you do!!!!)

 

And I have to admit not trying hard enough to teach my dog to wait by my side so I can first throw the ball, then he'd follow. Must put it on our to-learn list

 

At the moment I am tickled pink we finally got him to run around us counter-clockwise with a "circle" command as opposed to his prefered clock-wise "round" command - he was stuck going one way and that's all he wanted to do. He'd bark if you'd point to him to run the other way. Now I have a bi-directional running dog

[BustopherJones]

We keep variety in the game, and Annie seems to enjoy it. Sometimes, we will "hold" her until the ball is launched, or even afterwards; this teaches her to listen for the command. Sometimes we realease her and allow her to head out, but put her in a "down" position and release the ball, not allowing her to retrive it until she gets a "free" command. And sometimes we release her and time the throw of the ball so that she can demonstrate her agility and acrobatics in catching the ball in the air. We use a lacrosse stick (accommodates any size ball), but a Chuck-It is fine. We also throw in frisbee (the soft ring floppy type) and "soccer" to give her additional variety. Whereas we only play these games on a grassy back yard, we don't need to worry about encounters with unnecessary hazards.

[Root Beer]

At the moment I am tickled pink we finally got him to run around us counter-clockwise with a "circle" command as opposed to his prefered clock-wise "round" command - he was stuck going one way and that's all he wanted to do. He'd bark if you'd point to him to run the other way. Now I have a bi-directional running dog

 

Cool! I need to teach this to Dean. I always have him circle clockwise, but my husband, who is left handed, wants him to circle counter-clockwise. If I try to get him to go counter-clockwise, he twizzles beautifully into heel!! At some point I need to teach him to go the other way.

[Beth G]

I really only use the rubber orange Chuck-It balls as well. I LOVE those. Not only does the Chuck it wear them out with all the bouncing but stands up to the chewing and BC teeth abuse as well.

[Samantha J]

Ours do a mixture really, sometimes just plain fetch, which is either Holly first followed shortly after by Zac or they both go together at the same time. They have seperate balls although they do swap and get each others sometimes. They also do the wait and fetch, we usually use a ready, steady, go with that and they can't go until the go word. They actually seem to like you to repeat the ready and steadys or mix them up a bit before saying go...so they do actually listen for the go before they do go.

 

 

As i throw the park used ones out pretty often they never actually get that worn or dirty and the ones in house are clean apart from some dog slobber, so that is probably why their teeth seem ok. It would be cheaper though in the long term for me to get hold of some of these chuck it balls as well as being better for them.

[Journey]

I sense judgement coming from Karen...but we are as safe as possible, and limit our sessions in number and duration, and switch up the games in a conscious effort to work all sorts of parts of him, including his brain. He jumps for the ball maybe 3 times per fetch session, and loves doing so. He has has NO issues since recovering from his surgery a year ago. The vet approves of his activtity level and finds absolutely nothing wrong with him or any of his joints. I have not seen him limp AT ALL for over a year, nor do I wish to.

 

In a manner of speaking yes. It's odd that we have these incredibly intelligent dogs and for the most part people play the mindless fetch game with them. You've tossed out, as have a few others, variations and thinking outside the box games to go along with the fetch game (or in conjunction with it). Not waiting, boring, too crazy, things like this are a training issue. As for "vet" approval, well, I take that with a grain of salt unless said vet actually "owns" a Border Collie and knows what they are talking about from first hand experience.

 

This fetch mania imo simply feeds fuel to the fire that Border Collies need lots of running. They are what you make them.

[Anda]

Not waiting, boring, too crazy, things like this are a training issue.

 

 

Karen - I don't think they are a training issue, but rather a training potential. They would an issue if their absence would actually create a problem - but for example the "not waiting" is not a problem, but a potentially useful trained behaviour.

[Lenajo]

I've known more good work and sport dogs to get hurt playing fetch than any other game. The run into things, each other, rip crutiates spinning after erratic bounces, tear pads etc. One erratic bounce sent a dog I knew diving under a parked car. She broke the tips off her vertebrae all the way down the spine.

 

Add that risk to the fact that this ball throwing thing repetitively, nauseatingly boring, and well...all I can ask is "why?"

 

IF I bother with playing with retrieve it's absent minded "catch" from sofa to sitting dog, or in the water where there is no spin and turn impact, and any mistakes are padded. Again, that won't happen much because I find it boring.

 

I tried Frisbee. Boring. Injury prone. No thank you.

 

If you can't work the dog, walk the dog, play home training games or sports, track/scent games .... I guess that's all that's left though. Honestly, I'd probably go out and buy a cat at that point. I'm not kidding - I've had Border Collies now for almost 20 years and I just don't do the ball thing. Yeuch. No thank you.

[kelpiegirl]

To each his own It's a matter of personal choice- oh, and that mindless throwing the ball from the couch? A friend of mine's acd became an intolerant a&& from that- would never stop.

 

We play fetch twice a day, morning and night, and for less than 10 minutes. The dog loves it. The dog would rather work sheep, but they aren't in my back yard.

 

How did this conversation go from types of tennis balls, to the evility of fetch.... And, "fetch mania" is that a medical term ?

 

I suppose I ought to just get a chain for Danny, and tie him up. and leave him there. until we work sheep. and then put him back when we are done. Would that be better?

[Liz P]

My version of fetch:

 

dogs lie down at my feet

ball is thrown with Chuckit into tallish grass (tall enough to hide the ball)

dogs are released one at a time (they take turns)

dogs run out at about they same pace as during an outrun

dogs search the field for the ball, which can take a few minutes or up to 15 minutes

 

In my version of fetch, the overall impact on the joints is no worse than working sheep (there is no jumping into the air or skidding to a stop). Commands (down, not moving until released, etc) are reinforced. The dogs have fun. Generally this is a game played while I am walking around the hay field for my own exercise, not something I do in the backyard.

[Journey]

But Liz, that can't be any fun?? They aren't going crazy, they aren't flying through the air, they aren't in charge. But then again they aren't hurt either. Thanks!

[kelpiegirl]

What on earth are you talking about? Where did I post that my dog was- "flying through the air, and in charge, oh, and "going crazy".

 

But Liz, that can't be any fun?? They aren't going crazy, they aren't flying through the air, they aren't in charge. But then again they aren't hurt either. Thanks!

[Journey]

KG, you're not the only one writing in this topic

[Lenajo]

To each his own

 

indeed, but do remember you were the one posting about how to do this ball thing "safely". Imo you can make it safer, but not much because of the nature of the activity - erratic bursts of speed, ocd oriented to the point of disregard for personal safety

 

It's a matter of personal choice- oh, and that mindless throwing the ball from the couch? A friend of mine's acd became an intolerant a&& from that- would never stop.

 

Like Journey mentioned, the answer to that is "training". The only way a dog becomes and intolerant ass is if his trainer lets him.

 

We play fetch twice a day, morning and night, and for less than 10 minutes. The dog loves it. The dog would rather work sheep, but they aren't in my back yard.

 

I don't tend too keep sheep in the backyard either, and my dogs would like a lot of things and have little understanding of what is, and isn't, good for them.. Fortunately they aren't in charge.

 

How did this conversation go from types of tennis balls, to the evility of fetch.... And, "fetch mania" is that a medical term ?

 

I didn't call it evil, I called it nauseatingly boring and listed reasons why I don't feel the need to do it "for my dog's sake" anyway.

 

I suppose I ought to just get a chain for Danny, and tie him up. and leave him there. until we work sheep. and then put him back when we are done. Would that be better?

 

I'm truly sorry if that's all you feel you have left to make a decent working dog out of him. You really should seek some help.

 

eta: regarding tennis balls and teeth, most all you will find are made in China. one of the primary symptoms you find for lead exposure are weak, eroded tooth enamel.

[Root Beer]

LOL!! I was actually just thinking this morning that things have gotten so quiet here and I miss the spirited discussions that we used to have.

 

OK, back on topic. Ball - yay! Maybe it's more addicting for me than for the dogs. I have a stress ball at work and sometimes when I'm bored I toss it into the air and catch it a few times.

 

I'll admit, I toss balls when I'm on the sofa watching TV. I like to try to get the ball into the dog's toy basket across the room. Usually it is intercepted, but sometimes it actually lands in the basket. The Border Collies love it and never get bored of it. They do settle when I don't feel like playing. I just drop the ball right at my feet a couple of times and they get the message. I do know how frustrating it is to have a Border Collie in the house who won't quit - ever! But mine can switch it on and off, so it works out well.

 

Last spring my husband and I amused ourselves during the Daytona 500 by bouncing tennis balls off of the TV screen. We were trying to hit the cars with the ball. The Border Collies enjoyed that game, too.

 

Yeah, it's mindless. Our Freestyle training isn't mindless, though. Our CU work isn't mindless. Our training walks aren't mindless. Our Agility training isn't mindless. Our clicker work isn't mindless. The hours we spend at training classes each week aren't mindless.

 

I guess tossing my stress ball into the air and trying to hit cars on the TV with tennis balls is really a waste of valuable human mind potential. I could be writing a book or making training plans or doing something for work or trying to devise ways to get my house more organized at those moments.

 

But I'm just not the all work and no play type. A little bit of mindless every day, in my experience, is a good thing. My dogs seem to like the arrangement.

[kelpiegirl]

Quote abbreviated for the sake of brevity

 

Hmmmm. Now we have gone to my dog is out of control, crazy, to a sh&tty working dog. My, how this conversation has morphed. I don't think he is a bad working dog, in face I think he will be nice, but he is a pup. But, I could be wrong... But THINK of all the potential as a ball fetching dog!

 

I'm truly sorry if that's all you feel you have left to make a decent working dog out of him. You really should seek some help.

[Samantha J]

I have to say that i honestly never get fed up playing ball with my two, i really enjoy a walk around the park with the dogs and my dh, watching Holly & Zac run around and have fun is a good thing to see imo. I have never been bored watching them have fun. They make me smile and when you meet up with other people there and pups it is really nice.

We do vary the way they play and what we do there but they always have a good run. I personally think it helps keep then fit and healthy, they can't run like that here as our garden is too small. We meet other dogs, we walk round the lakes sometimes, so it isn't all run and fetch.

We only go two or three times a week and the rest of the week they get walked, garden play and come out with me a lot. Going to the park doesn't make them want to run like that everyday but they love it when they get to go.

 

I do get that they might get hurt running for a ball but they can also get hurt having zoomies round the garden or playing tug with each other in the house. My two can be quite boistrous with each other when they play tug or when they chase each other round the garden.

[Journey]

Maybe it's more addicting for me than for the dogs.

 

 

RB, thank you for finally writing the "truth" about this mindless fetch game It's not the dogs that are the problem, they are simply playing by the rules (or lack thereof). It's the owners

[Lenajo]

In truth the quote was abbreviated for the sake of <going to extremes and forgetting that you responded to constructive conversation about safety and ball throwing by threatening to chain your dog up and only let him off only to work> oops, I meant "brevity"

 

Lets keep this constructive please. Nobody has insulted your dog. Well, you have, but he's yours so other than being sad to read it's of non-issue.

 

There is a good point here. Comments that are regular on this part of the forum do perpetuate the myth that the Border Collie needs mountains of repetative exercise to be happy. Playing ball does provide some (questionaly safe) exercise, but very little (mostly none) of the mental exercise that helps keep these dogs focused and sane. So you get fitter...but not saner...dog behavior. A lot like people who run their horses a few times a week because it gets the hyper bucks out. The horse just get fitter, and the real problem is never addressed.

 

Quote abbreviated for the sake of brevity

Hmmmm. Now we have gone to my dog is out of control, crazy, to a sh&tty working dog. My, how this conversation has morphed. I don't think he is a bad working dog, in face I think he will be nice, but he is a pup. But, I could be wrong... But THINK of all the potential as a ball fetching dog!

[kelpiegirl]

I a,m here to tell you, that I could stop playing fetch forever right now! Now, anyone want to buy me a place where I can walk my dogs off leash, without them getting attacked, or better yet, a working farm? I really don't like playing fetch, but I will not NOT exercise my dog.

[kelpiegirl]

There was no prevarication on my part. What were you trying to get across, when you told me to get help to make a good working dog out of him? Please elaborate, I am bein' a dummy, I know. truth bve known, I could not be happier with my dog.

 

It's not constructive when it is phrased the way it was, unless, of course, I am bein' a dummy agin. As to the mental acuity of my dog, he gets good work on sheep, and is focused, very quick to learn, and a A+ student. The fetching is something that burns some energy, 20 mins a day. I have multiple friends who run their dogs at the open level, who play fetch with their dogs- not regularly, but they do. They will tell you it's fine in moderation, and on the human's terms.

 

So, those of you who do not play fetch, what do you do with your dogs to mentally exercise them (without access to sheep).

 

 

In truth the quote was abbreviated for the sake of <going to extremes and forgetting that you responded to constructive conversation about safety and ball throwing by threatening to chain your dog up and only let him off only to work> oops, I meant "brevity"

 

Lets keep this constructive please. Nobody has insulted your dog. Well, you have, but he's yours so other than being sad to read it's of non-issue.

 

There is a good point here. Comments that are regular on this part of the forum do perpetuate the myth that the Border Collie needs mountains of repetative exercise to be happy. Playing ball does provide some (questionaly safe) exercise, but very little (mostly none) of the mental exercise that helps keep these dogs focused and sane. So you get fitter...but not saner...dog behavior. A lot like people who run their horses a few times a week because it gets the hyper bucks out. The horse just get fitter, and the real problem is never addressed.

[BustopherJones]

RB, thank you for finally writing the "truth" about this mindless fetch game. It's not the dogs that are the problem, they are simply playing by the rules (or lack thereof). It's the owners.

I guess that I may be the only person on this board offended by that statement. I work every weekday, and DW has very limited mobility. The "mindless fetch game" that DW plays with Annie is a way of keeping her interested and exercised. If DW was able to do the things that many others take for granted, she would love to do them. She used to love to take long walks, but now she can't and she cries at times about that fact. On the weekends when I am home from work, Annie gets additional stimulation, as she gets to go on long treks in the woods, or go to the local park to interface with the geese, or fishing with me on my rowboat. Despite the fact that we don't have a lot of money, she also goes to doggie day care twice a week for fun and socializing with other dogs. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive on behalf of DW, but she does not engage in the fetch games because she is "mindless", but because it is the only option available to her.

 

But then again, empathy has never stopped people from expressing their negative opinions on this board before, and there is no reason why this should change. And I'm sure that at least one person will suggest that I should rehome the dog if this is all I have to offer her...

[kelpiegirl]

You're right. But, that's okay, I get you, and you get me- we do what we gotta. Now, how do I make a streaming avatar of Danny fetching?

 

I guess that I may be the only person on this board offended by that statement. I work every weekday, and DW has very limited mobility. The "mindless fetch game" that DW plays with Annie is a way of keeping her interested and exercised. If DW was able to do the things that many others take for granted, she would love to do them. She used to love to take long walks, but now she can't and she cries at times about that fact. On the weekends when I am home from work, Annie gets additional stimulation, as she gets to go on long treks in the woods, or go to the local park to interface with the geese, or fishing with me on my rowboat. Despite the fact that we don't have a lot of money, she also goes to doggie day care twice a week for fun and socializing with other dogs. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive on behalf of DW, but she does not engage in the fetch games because she is "mindless", but because it is the only option available to her.

 

But then again, empathy has never stopped people from expressing their negative opinions on this board before, and there is no reason why this should change. And I'm sure that at least one person will suggest that I should rehome the dog if this is all I have to offer her...