OT - pit bull seizure - vent

[bc friend]

300+ pit bulls were seized near Houston 8/7 at a murder scene. The "victim" was breeding and selling trained fighting dogs. The estimated worth of the dogs is between 500,000-1,000,000 because the bulk of them are already trained. A news report advised that the local humane society will be housing the dogs for months, if not years, because they are evidence in the criminal case. No one is pretending these dogs will ever be safe for adoption. Through no fault of their own, they have been condemned to live out their lives in a shelter and then pts. While I have no doubt they will receive far more humane care than they have ever had, I just hate this whole scenario. IMO the dogs should be pts now rather than suffering the stress and endangering the shelter staff, not to mention the financial costs involved which could be used for other animals which could be saved. Please understand I am not blaming the dogs; it is not their fault, it is just too late to help them now.

 

Thank God no one trains our bc's to be fighting dogs, to be tortured until they die.

 

Sorry for the rant - I just really am upset over those poor dogs.

[Lunar]

I agree. That's so sad.

[smileyzookie]

[Dixie_Girl]

Except for the ultimate fate of the dogs, I would say this is a case of poetic justice. This guy got to be on the receiving end of what he perpetuated. I agree that the poor dogs should be pts asap. Why they need them for their investigation, is unclear. It's not like they can testify.

[Joe Anne]

:mad:

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

Why they need them for their investigation, is unclear. It's not like they can testify.

Even in just a plain old dog-fighting case w/o a murder, the dogs are kept as evidence. True, photographic and other record evidence could be made and the dogs then destroyed, but there's always a possibility that some records might be excluded by the court under the "hearsay" rule. Or someone might not collect the exact type of evidence that turns out later would support/refute a major legal point.

 

Also, in most states, a dog must be evaluated and determined to be "vicious" before it can be destroyed. I was once involved in a case where this wasn't done - animal control seized a bunch of fighting dogs and then didn't have sufficient room to house them (or any idea what they were getting into). When the dogs started grabbing each other through adjacent chain link runs, panic ensued and the whole bunch was put down. Over 50 dogs.

[Keith Ramsay]

I had a lengthy 'debate' with a fella I met one night at a work party. He was a tough guy that grew up in nothern new jersey, fighting dogs. He had long since given up that lifestyle, but argued as to why it was wrong. He was actually a very streetwise and intelligent business man.

 

Although I disagreed with him, he made some points that I had never really thought about. The one thing that he also said, was the "best" dog he ever knew... was a family pet. Played lovingly with the kids by day, and did his "job" by night. He said a lot of those dogs were much better cared for than any other pets.

 

I disagreed with this guy to the end, but it was a very interesting conversation to see how folks have different opinions of animals based on their social background.

 

For a woodsman a dog is a hunting tool.

For a rancher a dog is a stock tool.

For innercity slums a dog is an inverstment to make money.

In many parts of the world a dog is a tasty meal.

 

In reality, what makes fighting a dog and caring for it worse than someone that breeds crappy dogs to crappy dogs and sells them to unsuspecting or ignorant people for an exhorbitent profit? Who is doing the most dis-service without being responsible for their actions? I would suggest that a guy fighting a dog would spend more time and care to protect his investment than a for shit breeder that knows another litter will be on it's way shortly.

 

All said... I DISAGREE WITH FIGHTING DOGS, and CRAPPY BREEDERS so spare me the barrage.

 

It is sad to hear that people take advantange of those that can not speak for themselves, albeit animals, children, or whatever else may be in the way.

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by Keith Ramsay:

For a woodsman a dog is a hunting tool.

For a rancher a dog is a stock tool.

For innercity slums a dog is an inverstment to make money.

In many parts of the world a dog is a tasty meal.

 

In reality, what makes fighting a dog and caring for it worse than someone that breeds crappy dogs to crappy dogs and sells them to unsuspecting or ignorant people for an exhorbitent profit? Who is doing the most dis-service without being responsible for their actions? I would suggest that a guy fighting a dog would spend more time and care to protect his investment than a for shit breeder that knows another litter will be on it's way shortly.

The short answer is that fighting dogs is a felony and puppy-milling isn't.

 

The fighting dog breeders I've seen don't take any better care of their stock than puppy-millers. They probably aren't any worse, either. Conditions are pretty similar - lots of bitches confined in not enough space and squalid conditions and bred every time they come in season.

 

While I'd agree that puppies from mills are at greater risk of developing a painful disorder or temperament problem than puppies from responsible breeders, dogs bred and sold to fight are pretty much guaranteed a painful existence.

 

So, as you said, I'm not defending either one but I think fighting dog breeders are even lower on the evolutionary scale than puppy-millers.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Keith Ramsay:

In reality, what makes fighting a dog and caring for it worse than someone that breeds crappy dogs to crappy dogs and sells them to unsuspecting or ignorant people for an exhorbitent profit? Who is doing the most dis-service without being responsible for their actions? I would suggest that a guy fighting a dog would spend more time and care to protect his investment than a for shit breeder that knows another litter will be on it's way shortly.

Not to barrage you, but you asked the question. What makes fighting a dog worse in my opinion is the suffering that is causes to the dogs who often fight to the death and to all the animals used for "training." Kittens, puppies, strays and stolen pets are used to bait the dogs and die horrific deaths being torn apart. I'm sure they're not treated especially well before they're killed.

 

For the record, I don't condone crappy breeders either and puppy mill dogs live terrible lives too. But dog fighting takes cruelty many steps further at least.

[Tsuter]

I know with that many dogs more then one person had to be involved in running an operation of that size. It would be nice when and if they get caught that they get serverd up to the dogs as a play / chew toy, it also should be filmed and some how shown to people to let them know what could be done to them if they want to live that type of life.

Tom and Pegasus

[Black Watch Debatable]

In reality, what makes fighting a dog and caring for it worse than someone that breeds crappy dogs to crappy dogs and sells them to unsuspecting or ignorant people for an exhorbitent profit?

Willful, deliberate, premeditated cruelty. This is the dogfighter's stock in trade: WARNING: Graphic photos.

 

I've seen first hand what pit bulls look like after a relatively minor (no stitches) fight: swollen, stiff, pissing blood from stress. From the physical standpoint alone, staged dogfights are extraordinarily traumatic for the dogs. The "winners" suffer horrible, sometimes fatal injures. The losers, depending on the dogfighter, are dragged away and left to die in agony, or finished off with kicks to the stomach or a baseball bat to the head, or set on fire and burned to death. They're lucky if they get a bullet.

 

What's especially sickening is the dogfighter's mantra: "We don't force them to fight --- they love to fight!" Yeah, the way an alcoholic "loves" to drink. These dogs fight because sick &%#$@!s take considerable care to breed for animals that are off-the-charts dog aggressive. (Not the easiest thing to do: a litter of gamedogs may include only a few pups eager and determined to fight all other dogs.) The man who died in Houston was a well-known gamedog breeder --- he had another large-scale operation in Pennsylvania.

 

Sad fact: some of these dogs would make wonderful, safe companions, but pit bull rescues won't be allowed to pull the good ones. The City of Houston Animal Control does adopt out pits, but these dogs were turned over to the Houston "Humane" Society:

Although the Humane Society will care and treat the dogs, the nonprofit agency does not offer the breed for adoptions. The agency, Frank said, does not have the resources to "rehabilitate" pit bulls.

And they won't release the good ones to any organization that does :mad: All 320 or so will be euthanized.

For innercity slums a dog is an inverstment to make money.

Keith, I understand the point you were trying to make, but I'm sure you'd agree that there are a great many decent, hardworking people in poor neighborhoods who would never dream of subjecting any dog to this kind of cruelty.

[bc friend]

Originally posted by Tsuter:

I know with that many dogs more then one person had to be involved in running an operation of that size. It would be nice when and if they get caught that they get serverd up to the dogs as a play / chew toy, it also should be filmed and some how shown to people to let them know what could be done to them if they want to live that type of life.

Tom and Pegasus

[bc friend]

Originally posted by bc friend:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tsuter:

I know with that many dogs more then one person had to be involved in running an operation of that size. It would be nice when and if they get caught that they get serverd up to the dogs as a play / chew toy, it also should be filmed and some how shown to people to let them know what could be done to them if they want to live that type of life.

Tom and Pegasus

I agree - even if just for an hour or so - but as a civilized society, it will never happen. We had a judge within the last yr or so try to punish a horse abuser (starver)with a bread and water diet only for 3 days in the county jail and the sheriff said they couldn't do it because it would violate federal laws. What we really need are stronger laws and more enforcement on animal cruelty with tougher punishment.

 

Sorry for the double post.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Kittens, puppies, strays and stolen pets are used to bait the dogs and die horrific deaths being torn apart.

This is mostly urban (& PETA-type) legend. Killing kittens, puppies, etc. teaches a fighting pit bull absolutely nothing. Mike Tyson didn't train with eight year olds as sparring partners. Gamedogs hone their fighting skills on other pit bulls --- brood bitches, retired fighters, pits not quite game enough to make the grade. Pit bulls from game lines (unlike the hippopotamuses so common these days) are smallish, incredibly agile and quick, and so far above and beyond other dogs in (sometimes very specific) fighting skills, it's amazing.

 

I love watching Bounce (my dinky pit bull) play with landshark Lulu (my youngest collie) --- it's kind of like watching Sugar Ray Leonard go a few for-fun rounds with an athletic, determined little fourth grader

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

quote:

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Kittens, puppies, strays and stolen pets are used to bait the dogs and die horrific deaths being torn apart.

This is mostly urban (& PETA-type) legend. Killing kittens, puppies, etc. teaches a fighting pit bull absolutely nothing. Mike Tyson didn't train with eight year olds as sparring partners. Thank you for confirming what I'd suspected.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

This is mostly urban (& PETA-type) legend. Killing kittens, puppies, etc. teaches a fighting pit bull absolutely nothing. Mike Tyson didn't train with eight year olds as sparring partners. Gamedogs hone their fighting skills on other pit bulls --- brood bitches, retired fighters, pits not quite game enough to make the grade.

 

Well, comforting to know my weanie sheltie would be safe from that at least. One more reason I'm happy to stay away from the "tough" dogs. Too bad for the pit bulls though.

[Riley-dog]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

quote:

---

Kittens, puppies, strays and stolen pets are used to bait the dogs and die horrific deaths being torn apart.

This is mostly urban (& PETA-type) legend. Killing kittens, puppies, etc. teaches a fighting pit bull absolutely nothing.

Kittens and puppies, no they don't, but STRAYS and STOLEN PETS are used to bait fighting dogs. When I lived in Albuquerque dog fighting was quite a problem there (maybe it still is, I've been away awhile) and a friend of mine had his two VERY large black Labradors stolen off of his property. It's not an uncommon story. Riley discovered a dead dog's body in a plastic bag alongside the highway one morning near a hill we used for flat slope launch hang gliding practice. It was not a pit bull, but it sure was torn to shreds. If you see a black bag alongside the highway out there chances are good that it isn't your usual trash...

[AK dog doc]

Luisa is right about the amount of suffering that even a relatively minor fight can produce. Having MANY times seen the result of accidental fights - those that occur between normally-affectionate housemate pets, for instance, or ones where an accidental encounter between strange dogs results in a fight - I can tell you that the amount of pain and suffering endured by fighting dogs is truly horrific. Having been bitten myself by a patient (who, ironically, had just come out of quarantine for having bitten someone else - a fact the owner ought to have brought to my attention before allowing his dog to bite me), I can attest first hand to the sort of pain and debilitation that comes from even a fairly minor bite (four stitches, no fractures.) The idea (firstly) of people deliberately CAUSING that sort of pain, and (secondly) of ENJOYING it, is enough to make me sick with rage. It is all the worse when you consider that the VAST majority of pit bulls that I have known are lovely, sweet, engaging dogs, and would not choose that lifestyle if any other option - ANY other option - were available to them. It is a sick perversion of their kindness and generosity of heart to fight them.

 

So, while puppy millers breed without regard for the animals they produce, and may well produce animals who will suffer later on as a result of poor health, it is not the GOAL of puppy millers to cause pain. That is a matter of indifference to them, as a rule. The intent in dogfighting is the blood, the gore, the damage, the deliberate infliction of gross bodily harm. For me, that makes them the lowest form of life. For me that takes it out of the realm of cruelty and puts it into the realm of evil: the deliberate infliction of harm upon another for the purpose of enjoyment.

 

JMO, of course.

[bc friend]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

quote:

---

Sad fact: some of these dogs would make wonderful, safe companions, but pit bull rescues won't be allowed to pull the good ones. The City of Houston Animal Control does adopt out pits, but these dogs were turned over to the Houston "Humane" Society:

Although the Humane Society will care and treat the dogs, the nonprofit agency does not offer the breed for adoptions. The agency, Frank said, does not have the resources to "rehabilitate" pit bulls.

And they won't release the good ones to any organization that does :mad: All 320 or so will be euthanized.

I have mixed emotions about this. I hate to see any dogs destroyed unnecessarily but I cannot blame the Humane Society for their position in this case. Could you ever trust dogs that had been taught to blood fight? Can you imagine the legal liability a person would have if they adopted one of these dogs and it later attacked someone? I would think even the breeding would it make questionable whether you could even save the puppies as yet unborn (some of the bitches are supposedly pregnant). Would any rescue groups be willing (or financially able) to take on such a large group of dogs.

 

This is just such a horrible situation but at least the dogs are receiving good care for the present.

 

I appreciate all the responses to my rant - I know this is a bc board but I think we're all dog lovers first.

[Black Watch Debatable]

bc friend asks:

Could you ever trust dogs that had been taught to blood fight? Can you imagine the legal liability a person would have if they adopted one of these dogs and it later attacked someone?

BAD RAP says it best (as usual):

Should DOG AGGRESSIVE pit bulls be euthanized?

Since we know that dog aggression does not equate with human aggression, we believe dog aggressive pit bulls with wonderful people-loving personalities deserve the same opportunity to enjoy life as more dog tolerant pit bulls. Pit bulls are highly trainable, and even the more dog aggressive individuals can be RESPONSIBLY MANAGED by their smart and loving owners so there never has to be concern of a tussle. [Link.]

The key phrase is "with wonderful people-loving personalities." There are undoubtedly at least a few dogs among the 320 that fit this description.

 

And remember that pit bulls aren't taught to fight, any more than a border collie is taught to do a pear-shaped outrun. A game pedigree is no guarantee of game characteristics. In a NY Times article a few years back, a wanna-be dogfighter takes his prized female to her first match:

Across the room, another local fighter holds another pit, and the plan is to give Roxy a casual ''roll,'' to see how much she ''wants it'' before placing her in any ''official'' contract match. ''O.K.,'' D. says, and the two men release, and while Roxy looks to D. for direction, the other dog ''hits'' her neck like an attacking shark. At which point Roxy's bowels go loose, and D. rushes in with a sickened look and a jaw-popping ''break stick,'' used like a boot horn to pry open the other dog's mouth... Roxy was supposed to be different. He got her from a big-talking breeder. Her pedigree papers were strong (she came down off some talented fighting bloodlines with some tough dogs in her family tree) and he paid $3,000 for her, no dog-game record (a $60,000 dog has been rumored) but a lot more then he'd ever paid before. ''Wow,'' D. says, trying to calm his quivering animal with some gentle pets. ''Wow, I'm very disappointed in you, Roxy. You're a worthless, worthless dog, and I just don't understand this. I'm very surprised.'' Minutes later he's on the phone trying to sell her...

To quote dog doc, "sick with rage" pretty much sums up my feelings towards people who do this sort of thing to pit bulls --- the dearest dogs on earth, many of them, really and truly the dearest.

 

As far as the pups are concerned, much depends on the dam. If she has the "wonderful, people-loving personality" that characterizes most authentic gamedogs, then the ideal option would be to get her the heck out of there and place her pups, once they're old enough, in pit-savvy foster homes for their first nine months or so. If their temperaments are excellent, then adopt them all out. Yes, of course this is hopelessly impractical, dammit. In all cases where the dam shows signs of aggression towards people, I'd vote for euthanizing the litters --- the breed's in too much danger from BSL to do otherwise, IMHO ['H' standing for Heartbroken]. Since warehousing high-drive dogs is torture, I can only hope all 320 will be euthanized sooner rather than later. The whole situation sucks hugely.

 

And honestly, if city shelters and rescue groups wanted to eliminate all risk of liability, they'd have to euthanize everything.

[Keith Ramsay]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

quote:

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For innercity slums a dog is an inverstment to make money.

Keith, I understand the point you were trying to make, but I'm sure you'd agree that there are a great many decent, hardworking people in poor neighborhoods who would never dream of subjecting any dog to this kind of cruelty. [/QB]Glad you chimed in... with a lot more statistic and background than I possess. Yep... 100% agreement. The only poeple that are making money off of the labors and pain of others are the weak and the lazy. As soon as you are in that category, I know you are not decent and hard working.

 

I just get so tired of the 'killer' pitbull mentality. What is realyl the difference between a BC that has ahad a rough go at it and a staffy? Not really that much. My friend who is a vet in a small city near a rural area of Pa, has had more serious bites from BC's than pitts or any other 'bully' breed.

[Dixie_Girl]

IMO, when you start labeling certain breeds in a certain way, you start losing sight of what they CAN be. BCs herd, so you can't have them around younguns. GSD are protective, so you can't let strangers around them. Pits will turn on their owners so you gotta keep them restrained. ETC.,ETC.. I used to hear, when I was a kid, that Dobies were so gentle by nature that when they were trained as guard dogs, it went so against their nature, it drove them crazy, therefore, untrustworthy. I heard that GSD would only bond with one person and all others were subject to attack. The truth is, I've been attacked by more Chihuahua's than any large dog. Yeah, the physical charateristics of a pit make them excelent fighters. The physical char. of a BC makes them excellent atheletes. But it doesnt' mean thats whats in their heads. I read once that the golden retriever was the only dog that had NEVER been reported to have bit someone. Hah! Media promotes hysteria on certain breeds of dogs. There only has to be people to believe to make it so. There are certain breeds I would never have simply because of personal reasons. I would never have a foo foo dog because around here, they would never get to be a foo foo dog! They'd be just as muddy and wet as the rest. Some breeds are just plain ugly to me. After years of hearing how vicious pits could be, the first one to one encounter I had with one was with a pit my brother rescued. The only thing that guy was interrested in biting was food. Otherwise, just rub his belly, thank you. I would trust Otis with any child. I would trust him around any dog that does not play aggresively, like BCs. But his sister, at a very young age, displayed very aggresive tendencies. So how do you say, pit/rotts are great dogs, or are very aggresive dogs? Which one do you use? I don't believe you could best a BC when it comes to working sheep. But how many own BCs that wouldn't herd a sheep if their supper depended on it?

 

We get these descriptions of breeds and we forget to look at the individule dog. For every positive thing you can say about a breed there is an instance that will contradict it. No breed is bomb proof. And time after time, when there has been charts made of instances of attacks, by breed, the "vicious" ones don't make the top of the list.