Kennel Clubs: Friend or Foe to Man's Best Friend?

[JaderBug]

So here’s a little background first. As part of an Animal Science student’s required curriculum at Iowa State, we have to take a 400-level class where the requirement is to choose a topic in the world of animal agriculture (companion animals count as well) that may or may not be controversial, but that you are passionate about. After doing a ton of research on your topic and knowing everything there is to know about it, you give a presentation to the class with your argument. Popular topics usually include sow gestation stalls, horse slaughter, antibiotic use, organic farming, etc… either pro or con.

 

This class is in the back of your mind throughout your years here, always wondering what your topic will be. I believe I chose my topic at the beginning of this summer, and have held off on posting this since then, thought I should at least have gone through the first day of class before I dive into it!

 

This board, along with Terrierman’s blog, has ignited my interest in dog breeding and the ethics and practices that go into it, especially preserving useful working breeds from destruction. It has opened my eyes to a world and an issue I never knew was there. I knew this was going to be my topic and now that the class is in session, I can’t get it out of my mind, I’m so excited about it. The other night I literally couldn’t go to sleep because I was thinking about it.

 

So basically I have a school-work excuse to be on the boards and search for dog stuff. What a bummer ( ) (I also have an assignment in another class where I have to outline a breed of any animal of my choice- history, use, traits, etc… sadistic professors…)

 

I need your guys’ help. As you could have guessed, I have chosen the topic of kennel clubs and their destruction of many breeds, not just the Border Collie, though they will probably get a little more attention. I know there’s been much conversation on here about this very topic but I’ve got a ton of questions.

 

Foe

 

I have many resources for the Foe argument, including “Dog Wars” by Donald McCaig, the BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed, Terrierman's blog, these Border Collie boards. (Eileen, I may be PMing you to pick your brain as well!) What other resources can anyone suggest?

 

Why are they foes?: Breed health issues, genetic inbreeding, conformation/structure faults, and of course loss of instincts and original purpose. Any others? Which of these would be key points to address?

 

Questions for the ‘Foe’ side:

 

1. Who is to blame for these problems?

The AKC claims that they are simply a registry and have no fault with the screwed up breeds, that they can’t control the breeders. So, who is at fault? The AKC, the breeders, or the judges who reward the breeders?

 

2. What do the breeders/owners/handlers say for themselves?

Do they realize what they’re doing to the breeds they love, or acknowledge it at all? Do the Barbie Collie people think their dogs could compete at the National Finals?? Do the bulldog people think their dogs could reasonably take on a bull?

 

3. Why are these people who claim to love their breed destroying them?

 

4. Why did this happen?

Is it purely a status and money thing? I understand that dog shows came about because ‘the new middle class had time and money to spare,’ but was there something beyond that?

 

5. Is this happening in other species as well?

I know this is a problem in some arenas of the horse world, but is the same thing happening with swine, sheep, cattle, llamas, etc?

 

6. What working breeds are currently or recently being jeopardized by kennel club acceptance?

Anyone up on the chopping block now? What is being done to stop it? Is there anything that can be done?

 

Friend (and playing Devil’s Advocate)

 

Though there isn’t going to be much focus on this, I still need to address the Friend side of this argument. What is good about organizations like the AKC? What are some things they do that aren’t bad? I don’t have anything listed here for my notes yet… mostly because I just don't know.

 

7. What is the other side (friend side) of the story?

To take a line from Dr. Phil- no matter how flat you get a pancake, there are still two sides…

 

8. Beyond health reasons, does it matter?

If the working breeders still breed for purpose, why do we care what the show breeders do? Is it for the sake of the ignorant puppy buyer? If the working animal no longer has a job to do and the practices (i.e. bull baiting) are out-dated, why does the change in instinct and/or structure matter?

 

------

 

Finally, probably the most important question:

 

9. What action can people take?

The purpose of this presentation is to spur people into action. What sort of action can be taken? Who should people contact if they are interested in this topic and would like to object to what is happening?

 

I hope this will stir up some interesting and inspiring conversation- if anyone has any other suggestions for me to look into, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to PM me if you would like.

 

Thanks for playing along, and I really look forward to seeing responses!

[SoloRiver]

Is this supposed to be a research paper or more of a journalistic endeavor? If the former, I would suggest hitting the veterinary literature.

 

I think if I had to do this project I'd do something about genetically modified organisms. It's always a lively topic. I personally have a hard time understanding why people are weirded out by GMO corn, for example, but not weirded out by corn itself.

[JaderBug]

Is this supposed to be a research paper or more of a journalistic endeavor? If the former, I would suggest hitting the veterinary literature.

 

More of a journalistic endeavor- it's meant to be that if you wanted to you could send it in to a paper as an editorial, former students have done that in the past.

 

ETA: It is a presentation, editorial-ish, but we need to be able to field questions from the opposition, which is why I need to know the other side as well.

[Maralynn]

I would also try contacting working breeders of breeds like GSD, Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers or those who successfully train/trial those breeds in different venues. While most breeds are AKC registered, I know serious schutzhund folks would never consider getting a showline dog.

[Howdyjabo]

Sadly- when breeding is based on competition with human judgment as a major factor its bound to warp breeds.

Seen it with EVERY animal competition

Horses

Sheep

Goats

Cattle

Rabbits

Chickens

and of course Dogs

 

Once a level is met by the majority of competitors(which doesn't take long) the system begins to value extremes-- in breeding extremes are never healthy

 

What to do about it is easy-- have a standard to be met and ALL those who meet that standard win. Its actually being done at sheep shows.

Or have the competitions performance based with little human evaluation involved.

[Sue R]

Just what Karen said - conformation competition leads to extremes, and it's a shame. Sadly, much of "performance" competition can do the same.

[painted_ponies]

I think you have excellent sources for your anti-breed club arguments and so I won't address those.

 

However , you probably need to beef up your knowledge of the other side. Even if you don't agree, or even especially if you don't, you need to understand the other side's best arguments. Well enough to be able to argue them yourself.

 

One good thing breed clubs might do for working dogs is serve as legislative and political action resources to stop breed-specific legislation, limits on the numbers of dogs imposed by municipal governments, required licensing and inspection for dog owners, etc. All of which threaten working dog folks - as the kennel license thread Debbie Crowder started and the Murder Hollow thread I started illustrate, as well as many threads on the mandatory speuter issue.

 

The group defending the lady in the Murder Hollow basset case is The NAIA Trust. Their president is an AKC bulldog breeder. But the Masters of Foxhounds Association (can't get much more "working-dog" than hunting foxhounds) is working with NAIA to provide Ms. Willard with a defense. Is the MFHA crazy about AKC hounds being bred for pretty? I bet not. But they understand the principle of hanging together so as not to hang separately.

 

Good luck with your paper.

[Pippin's person]

You'll probably find some interesting reading on these issues if you look into the literature (and it's vast) on the sociopolitical context of kennel clubs (as well as pet keeping), particularly in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It might be easier to make sense of the contemporary arguments with some of that background, especially because it grounds the contemporary discussion in its shifting history and adds some layers of nuance beyond the "two" sides as they exist now.

 

You might be surprised if you look at little bit outside of the Animal Science literature specifically (though obviously, you can't go too far afield). Since it's a more journalistic endeavor, for instance, some of Mark Derr's work (which is not specifically scholarly) might be of use for your purpose.

[JaderBug]

What is something that should be done about the shows? They're clearly not going to go away... if the breeders insist on continuing with conformation competition, do you think it should be like half-and-half or something, as in half of their score is conformation, with the other half being a *real* field test, none of this "herding test" crap? Should a conformation Border Collie be trialed under USBCHA rules to finish the other half of it's points? No they're not going to do as well, but if they can at least run a course properly, could that be a solution?

 

One of my biggest questions that hasn't really been addressed is who is to blame here? The AKC as an organization, the breeder as the producer, or the judge as an enabler?

 

Any other discussion?

[Pam Wolf]

So here’s a little background first. As part of an Animal Science student’s required curriculum at Iowa State, we have to take a 400-level class where the requirement is to choose a topic in the world of animal agriculture (companion animals count as well) that may or may not be controversial, but that you are passionate about. After doing a ton of research on your topic and knowing everything there is to know about it, you give a presentation to the class with your argument. Popular topics usually include sow gestation stalls, horse slaughter, antibiotic use, organic farming, etc… either pro or con.

 

This class is in the back of your mind throughout your years here, always wondering what your topic will be. I believe I chose my topic at the beginning of this summer, and have held off on posting this since then, thought I should at least have gone through the first day of class before I dive into it!

 

This board, along with Terrierman’s blog, has ignited my interest in dog breeding and the ethics and practices that go into it, especially preserving useful working breeds from destruction. It has opened my eyes to a world and an issue I never knew was there. I knew this was going to be my topic and now that the class is in session, I can’t get it out of my mind, I’m so excited about it. The other night I literally couldn’t go to sleep because I was thinking about it.

 

So basically I have a school-work excuse to be on the boards and search for dog stuff. What a bummer ( ) (I also have an assignment in another class where I have to outline a breed of any animal of my choice- history, use, traits, etc… sadistic professors…)

 

I need your guys’ help. As you could have guessed, I have chosen the topic of kennel clubs and their destruction of many breeds, not just the Border Collie, though they will probably get a little more attention. I know there’s been much conversation on here about this very topic but I’ve got a ton of questions.

 

Foe

 

I have many resources for the Foe argument, including “Dog Wars” by Donald McCaig, the BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed, Terrierman's blog, these Border Collie boards. (Eileen, I may be PMing you to pick your brain as well!) What other resources can anyone suggest?

 

Why are they foes?: Breed health issues, genetic inbreeding, conformation/structure faults, and of course loss of instincts and original purpose. Any others? Which of these would be key points to address?

 

 

 

Conformation showing leads to extremes that lead to inbreeding without concern for overall health. The form is more important than the function. Working breeders are more concerned with the function. The purposes are different therefore conflict

 

 

 

Questions for the ‘Foe’ side:

 

1. Who is to blame for these problems?

The AKC claims that they are simply a registry and have no fault with the screwed up breeds, that they can’t control the breeders. So, who is at fault? The AKC, the breeders, or the judges who reward the breeders?

 

Breeders, judges both at fault. Breeders fro not seeing the whole picture and presenting judges with extreme speciemines and judges for awarding them ribbons to stroke the human ego

 

2. What do the breeders/owners/handlers say for themselves?

Do they realize what they’re doing to the breeds they love, or acknowledge it at all? Do the Barbie Collie people think their dogs could compete at the National Finals?? Do the bulldog people think their dogs could reasonably take on a bull?

 

They are often deluded by the awards. Yes, many DO think their dogs could win with the right training/handling. I doubt the bulldog ppl think their dogs could grab a bull LOL!

 

3. Why are these people who claim to love their breed destroying them?

 

4. Why did this happen?

Is it purely a status and money thing? I understand that dog shows came about because ‘the new middle class had time and money to spare,’ but was there something beyond that?

 

EGO

 

5. Is this happening in other species as well?

I know this is a problem in some arenas of the horse world, but is the same thing happening with swine, sheep, cattle, llamas, etc?

 

Yup, with few exceptions. The Polypay sheep are shown on performance records, not just for looks. Most show breeds are useless in the field

 

 

 

6. What working breeds are currently or recently being jeopardized by kennel club acceptance?

Anyone up on the chopping block now? What is being done to stop it? Is there anything that can be done?

 

Probably all that accept a looks only standard for the breed

 

Friend (and playing Devil’s Advocate)

 

Though there isn’t going to be much focus on this, I still need to address the Friend side of this argument. What is good about organizations like the AKC? What are some things they do that aren’t bad? I don’t have anything listed here for my notes yet… mostly because I just don't know.

 

7. What is the other side (friend side) of the story?

To take a line from Dr. Phil- no matter how flat you get a pancake, there are still two sides…

 

 

Gives ppl organization. Gives then sac=nctioning of their ideas/goals. Adds credentials for ego and monetary purposes

 

8. Beyond health reasons, does it matter?

If the working breeders still breed for purpose, why do we care what the show breeders do? Is it for the sake of the ignorant puppy buyer? If the working animal no longer has a job to do and the practices (i.e. bull baiting) are out-dated, why does the change in instinct and/or structure matter?

 

For the working ppl, it is important. If a farmer gets a poor example of a BC out of "Herding Champion" parents, but the dog cannot really work then they think ALL BC's are the same and the breed is no good.

 

------

 

Finally, probably the most important question:

 

9. What action can people take?

The purpose of this presentation is to spur people into action. What sort of action can be taken? Who should people contact if they are interested in this topic and would like to object to what is happening?

 

JQ public has little concern except for health matters with their pets. The show breeders think they are doing what is best for their breeds as do the working ppl. Antagonism breeds hate and mistrust. Showing ppl is better, but some cannot learn because their minds are closed.

 

I hope this will stir up some interesting and inspiring conversation- if anyone has any other suggestions for me to look into, I would greatly appreciate it. Feel free to PM me if you would like.

 

Thanks for playing along, and I really look forward to seeing responses!

[juliepoudrier]

What is something that should be done about the shows?

 

Re: fixing shows, I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps requiring judging to be done by a panel, with at least one of the panel members being well-versed in the actual function of the animal through some sort of sanctioning system. Perhaps allow champions to be gained only if points (however it works) are obtained under X number of judges at X number of shows. Institute a scoring system for various judgeable characteristics and make the judge's score cards available to the public. Make sanctions against breeders who cheat really mean something. So if you have a dog with a physical problem that you have surgically altered, the dog becomes ineligible to show and if the dog is shown, then the breeder/handler can face fines or ineligibility to show for X amount of time. If there are size standards, then *measure* the animals to make sure they fit the standard and don't place anything that falls outside the standard, no matter what.

 

This latter issue came up on the Tunis (sheep) list I'm on last year. A yearling ram was awarded grand champion at a prestigious show when he was clearly larger than the standard allows (so say witnesses, some of whom even said he was so heavy he could hardly stand). Those who show sheep argued that a sheep in show condition if going to be heavier than a sheep in breeding condition, for a variety of reasons, none of which made sense to me. While it would be more complicated to get weights and heights on animals, it would stop the breeding of ever larger sheep if those who were outside the standard were *never* placed. So if the standard for a tunis ram has a top weight at 275 pounds and X inches at the wither, and the ram walking into the show ring weighs 300 and is taller than the standard, he's automatically disqualified. That's a pipedream, but it would stop some of the abuses and going to extremes that breeders tend to engage in for the show ring.

 

Of course exactly delineating all sorts of physical characteristics would take some of the art and humanity out of breeding, but it might be a fair trade off for not creating animals with physical defects that make their lives miserable.

 

I don't think a performance test would be meaningful. They did that in the UK and ended up dumbing it down to laughable levels because so few conformation champions were able to meet the performance requirements in order to also get a performance championship.

[Sue R]

I don't think a performance test would be meaningful. They did that in the UK and ended up dumbing it down to laughable levels because so few conformation champions were able to meet the performance requirements in order to also get a performance championship.

Last I was aware (maybe a couple of years ago), there had been just one dog in UK that achieved both conformation championship and met the performance requirements then in place (which were not terribly stringent but at least indicated a certain talent and/or trainability on sheep).

 

The sad part of that can be attributed to one of two situations - either KC people and dogs made attempts to fulfill the requirements, and the level of working ability in KC dogs was so abysmal that only one achieved that goal - or - so few people were interested in "proving" that their show-quality dogs could/might be able to work that hardly anyone bothered.

 

Either way, it's a sad commentary on the state of the show "Border Collie" in UK and/or the mindset of the showring "Border Collie" people in UK.

[Eileen Stein]

I have many resources for the Foe argument, including “Dog Wars” by Donald McCaig, the BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed, Terrierman's blog, these Border Collie boards. (Eileen, I may be PMing you to pick your brain as well!) What other resources can anyone suggest?

 

Mosey around the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America site, especially the stuff under the "JRTCA" tab. The JRTCA is a very interesting case study, and not just on the "foe" side. It is a breed registry/club that will kick you out if you register with an all-breed registry like the AKC, and yet it has a breed standard and conformation showing, and yet it is ferociously focused on maintaining the JRT as a working dog, and yet . . . It will give you a lot of food for thought.

 

1. Who is to blame for these problems?

The AKC claims that they are simply a registry and have no fault with the screwed up breeds, that they can’t control the breeders. So, who is at fault? The AKC, the breeders, or the judges who reward the breeders?

 

I would place the most blame on the AKC, because they set up, maintain, and regulate the system, but really it's a false premise that these are distinct categories. The Directors of the AKC are breeders and judges, the judges are breeders, and the breeders (those who can get the AKC's certification, anyway) are judges. They're all in it together , but the AKC is the entity with the ultimate power.

 

2. What do the breeders/owners/handlers say for themselves?

Do they realize what they’re doing to the breeds they love, or acknowledge it at all? Do the Barbie Collie people think their dogs could compete at the National Finals?? Do the bulldog people think their dogs could reasonably take on a bull?

 

They would say they're improving the breed. They are "responsible breeders." They have a code of ethics, and they abide by it. They love their dogs. They have certificates that bear witness to the superiority of their dogs. They have the esteem of their AKC colleagues, and who would know better what makes a good dog and a good breeder? They prize both brains and beauty, form and function. They appreciate a beautiful [insert name of breed], even if you don't. They think their dogs could compete at the National Finals if they chose to put in the time and effort, but they happen to have other priorities.

 

It's hard to make someone value something they just don't value.

 

3. Why are these people who claim to love their breed destroying them?

 

Why did the Easter Islanders destroy their ecosystem to put up a bunch of big stone statues? Because they're submerged in a culture that approves and rewards what they're doing, and they can't see beyond it.

 

4. Why did this happen?

Is it purely a status and money thing? I understand that dog shows came about because ‘the new middle class had time and money to spare,’ but was there something beyond that?

 

That and the ascendancy of "pure breeding," superior race, eugenics type thinking, which is now in disrepute as far as people are concerned but still hangs on in "the fancy."

 

5. Is this happening in other species as well?

I know this is a problem in some arenas of the horse world, but is the same thing happening with swine, sheep, cattle, llamas, etc?

 

Yes, it's prevalent in show livestock, but since livestock are usually raised for a purpose, the bottom line acts as a strong countervailing force. In the pet world, there is no countervailing force. There's no objective measurement system of what constitutes high quality in a pet, and so the AKC's authority goes pretty much unchallenged.

 

6. What working breeds are currently or recently being jeopardized by kennel club acceptance?

Anyone up on the chopping block now? What is being done to stop it? Is there anything that can be done?

 

Well, the kelpie has managed to keep its head down enough to escape the AKC so far. And the JRTCA, through toughness and luck, managed to remain the definer of its breed even after AKC recognized it.

 

Friend (and playing Devil’s Advocate)

 

Though there isn’t going to be much focus on this, I still need to address the Friend side of this argument. What is good about organizations like the AKC? What are some things they do that aren’t bad? I don’t have anything listed here for my notes yet… mostly because I just don't know.

 

7. What is the other side (friend side) of the story?

To take a line from Dr. Phil- no matter how flat you get a pancake, there are still two sides…

 

They contribute a percentage of their money to canine health research, they can (and sometimes do) use their prestige and power to oppose bad dog legislation, they furnish information about dog care and training to beginning dog owners, and they provide a program in which people can have fun with their dogs through setting and reaching attainable goals.

 

8. Beyond health reasons, does it matter?

If the working breeders still breed for purpose, why do we care what the show breeders do? Is it for the sake of the ignorant puppy buyer? If the working animal no longer has a job to do and the practices (i.e. bull baiting) are out-dated, why does the change in instinct and/or structure matter?

 

Here's the answer I would give as regards border collies, and it probably applies also to other types of dogs who still are needed to do a job. As far as dogs whose original purpose no longer exists, the show ring does tend toward exaggeration of form, and those extremes can be seriously detrimental to the health of the dog (ex. bulldogs no longer used for bull baiting, but conformation showing has reshaped them into dogs who can't breathe and can't deliver their young without surgery).

 

Finally, probably the most important question:

 

9. What action can people take?

The purpose of this presentation is to spur people into action. What sort of action can be taken? Who should people contact if they are interested in this topic and would like to object to what is happening?

 

Well, don't support the AKC. Don't go to their shows, don't participate in their programs, don't give them any of your money. If you want a pet dog, get a nice mix from a shelter, or if you must have a purebred, go to a shelter and get a dog of a breed that looks like a dog. That's my first reaction. I'll try to think of something more nuanced to go with it.

[PennyT]

Pick up a copy of Harriet Ritvain's "Animal Estate" which will explain the allure and origins of appearance based judging.