Kennel Inspections

[juliepoudrier]

And people wonder why so many of us simply choose not to bother with licensing. When laws are outdated and inconsistent as Mark notes, it becomes nearly impossible to do the right thing. And chances are if you try, your good deed will not go unpunished!

 

J.

[powerfulgazelle]

And people wonder why so many of us simply choose not to bother with licensing. When laws are outdated and inconsistent as Mark notes, it becomes nearly impossible to do the right thing. And chances are if you try, your good deed will not go unpunished!

 

J.

 

 

Oh, and in the interest of full confession: Our old dog (just like our current dogs) was always licensed. But, license renewal is always Jan 1st-Jan 30th...or so we learned. If you miss the deadline, you pay for the license (~$15 or so back then) AND a big fat fine ($50-ish, I think.) I remember the first year we discovered that Dog's license was expired (it just had the year on it) and I thought, "Oh, my it's not 1995 anymore!" or whatever, "I better get to the hardware store and get that new license!". Went to the hardware store (duly authorized to sell county dog licenses back then) and was told about how I couldn't buy the license there cos Dog was out of date...that I'd have to go down to the animal shelter to buy it and pay the fine......unless, the kind clerk explained, I was licensing a NEW dog. So, for the rest of Dog's life, we occasionally got a "new" old yellow Labby/Shepherdy yellow dog and named the "new" dog the same name our "old" Dog ever had....whenever we missed the January deadline. Whatever.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

I think this has turned into a learning thread for me. I want to restate that my objection to AC coming into my home is more about my right to privacy and freedom from government intrusion and less about my housekeeping. There are no flies in the house, the cats get those. I clean with a shop-vac, easier and more efficient, which does make me sound more like a house-barn keeper. I believe some of my crates may not be big enough, if we go on the "erect" rule too, but the ones in the barn will be. No feces, no urine, no smell. There is hair, between shop-vac runs, and I have stepped on a freshly hacked up hairball in the middle of the night, but I cleaned it up, sleepy or not. I have had friends in my home, they survived (thanks Sue!).

 

My farrier was out yesterday, I asked him, an NRA liberal, what he thought, and he was upset. He had to go to kennel license status this year after adding the sixth dog to his household, and he said his wife, who works with a local rescue, would probably stop them too, all their dogs live in the house as well. No crates, except for #6, a puppy. This conversation also gave me reason to believe that I cannot go purchase separate licenses, as my AC friend said I could, to avoid scrutiny. Bill was forced to go with a Kennel license when he added a sixth. His objection was same as mine, what gives government, local or otherwise, the right to scrutinize my keeping eight dogs when more folks can't do justice to less? I can show you daily examples of our clients who aren't doing as well with one or two pets, either due to ignorance, lack of money or by lack of initiative (laziness). Many folks just don't buy licenses, but now in VA, if you vaccinate for rabies, your info is sent to the locality we vaccinate in and you are reported as having an animal that now needs licensing if you live in that locality. You get a bill and a letter in the mail.

 

Last week, I was told I could speak to the chief AC person this week when he came back to work from vacation. He has not called me as of Thursday. I have thoroughly researched the code in Hanover, it says very little on how to keep a dog, but that an untagged dog is considered unlicensed, so I got eight inexpensive collars, rivets, and got all the tags on collars which will be on them Tuesday. My dogs don't typically wear collars. The young dogs have them on and Beryl (who is 13 and has hearing loss) just in case. When we travel, they wear collars.

 

If I did live in a S--thole, I would expect my friends and family to get on my case, not the govenment. I do agree that no one should allow themselves or their pets to live in a s--thole, but define s--thole. Is it to the standard where it is just untidy, slovenly, unhygienic, sloppy, white-trash/trailerpark (my late Dad's description of so many things)? Tell my why I will have generated three visits (the first unannounced, and uninvited) from a local agency that wrings it's hands for lack of personnel and funds when it falls short on some other claim, like the story that happened here last month. A thirteen year old lab mix was euthanized by AC at the pound facility, it had been there for ten days, no tags, no tatoo, no microchip. The owner had lost her dog around July 4th, scared by neighbors fireworks, but the owner did not go to the pound (dog had been there from day one) to look, just relied on the AC website (they post pictures), and phone calls to the staff asking if a dog bearing that description was there. When the dog's picture was posted, she went to look herself on the afternoon of the morning it was put down, public outcry, media coverage, letters to the editor, blah blah blah. I was on AC's side on that one, it was her dog, her responsibility, if it was one of mine missing, I would have gone down there each and every day myself to look. Then again, all of mine are microchipped. The SPCA here is having a memorial microchip clinic this Monday evening, $20 a chip for three hours.

 

All the arguments here have been helpful, and if he ever does call me back, I am ready to politely discuss this thing. When the officer comes Tuesday morning, I will be ready and fully expect to pass, and it will be over til next time. I'm not going to give her a hard time for doing her job. I respect my dog community, and I expect to be policed by them, but not by government. Their job is to be there for me to report people who aren't responsive to community/family/friendly pressure, and I do believe it is up to us to all do that for each other. It's the Libertarian me that is upset over this, not the dog lover/hobbiest/professional me, although that me is scared of the government being able to maybe take my animals away if I was truly falling down in their care.

[painted_ponies]

Last week, I was told I could speak to the chief AC person this week when he came back to work from vacation. He has not called me as of Thursday. I have thoroughly researched the code in Hanover, it says very little on how to keep a dog

 

Normally, specifics like that are found in the agencies' own regulations, not in the code of laws. The legislature (or county council, or whatever lawmaking body) makes the law giving the agency the authority to enforce regulations - but the agency gets to make its own regulations - which contain the specifics of exactly what one must do to be in compliance with the law. This is true for all agencies, not just AC.

 

You are entitled to a copy of the regulations - anyone is - but you may need to send a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA, pronounced "foy-ah") request to get them. FOIAs provide that taxpayers are entitled to copies of any information put together using state funds (with certain common-sense exceptions, like ongoing criminal investigations, etc)

 

It's not complicated - just send a letter saying you are requesting a copy of the agency's regs pursuant to [your state's] Freedom of Information Act. Or if time is short, you can call the agency and find out to whom a FOIA request should be faxed. The time the agency has to respond will depend on your state's FOIA. Mine, I think, gives the agency a few weeks to produce the documents. And you may be charged a copying fee - the amount allowed will also be in the FOIA statute.

 

Please note neither this post nor anything else I've posted on this board should be considered legal advice - just general information.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Sally, thanks.

One of my points to discuss with Chief Kilgore is the fact that I signed a paper that enabled me to obtainthe kennel license, after giving the information and then showing my information (regarding rabies vaccination) to the clerk at the county office. She pulled out a packet of tags, gave me eight (one dog, sweet Marie has been PTS in June) tags. Since then I have gotten back a pup I bred, Bailey, and intend to keep her, bringing me back to eight. I have her rabies info in the book I keep on medical/legal animal papers. I have a K9 book (cats go there too) and an Equine book for the same, coggins, etc. I got a receipt from them for the check I wrote, stating this was the license, along with a two inch square tag that calls itself KENNEL LICENSE 2009(NAIL TO KENNEL). I should have been given (IMHO) something that states what I have a license for and my obligations therein.

 

I am familiar with the FOIA, had to use it for the sheep killing incident in February. I was hoping for verbal info from him as to where I could find this info, and if not publically accessible (and why not?), may I have a copy. Seems to me, their standards of care ought to be included in my agreement to obtain the license, including the information that mandatory, unannounced kennel inspections should be anticipated. Geez, Louise, listen to me.

 

FOR EXAMPLE: It is now 80 degrees in my tackroom (10:30am). I have always had a thermometer in there, is that temp okay for a kennel? My dogs are acclimated to do all kinds of resting temps, by my management of them so I can take them to trials, etc all year long. What about my neighbor with bird dogs in outdoor kennels (runs with dog houses)? His kennel was outside yesterday when it was 95 degrees, no doubt it was hot there, my tackroom will stay about this temp all day long, I open the doors at night and close them by day to keep in cooler temps and have fans running. I could live there just fine.

 

I'll call him back tomorrow if I hear nothing, although at this point, might be better to just wait til it's over Tuesday.

[powerfulgazelle]

Or, you may be lucky enough that your state/county posts the rules that are drawn from the legislation online...

 

(I used to work for our designated area agency on aging. The laws governing what I did were passed by the legislature, but various state agencies wrote the administrative rules---dept of health, mental health, etc.----and got wise and posted them online so people wouldn't have to bug them for paper copies.)

[juliepoudrier]

I still think tying licensing to rabies vaccines is a stupid move on the part of the state government. I'd love to see some statistics on the rate of rabies vaccination after a state passes such a law....

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Or, you may be lucky enough that your state/county posts the rules that are drawn from the legislation online...

 

Even if they're not on a publicly accessible website, a lawyer friend with a Westlaw subscription may be able to pull them up for you. When I worked for a law firm, we had access to all the agency regs through our Westlaw subscription. (Don't have Westlaw anymore since I hung out my own shingle.)

 

Julie - I absolutely agree about the bone-headedness of requiring vets to report rabies vaccinations to licensing authorities.

[Wendy V]

For those in Va, could you possibly get your rabies vaccinations out of state to escape the paper trial?

[Journey]

Or not get the Rabies Vac. at all? Fl. also had a paper trail, we simply went to a different county (in Fl it's county by county as to 1 yr vs. 3 yr.) and the vets can't report out of their county. I haven't given any rabies since they got their 1 one at 1 yr.

[juliepoudrier]

As I noted in an earlier post, I used to take my dogs to VA for rabies vaccines so that they wouldn't be reported in the county I lived in here in NC. I'm not sure if it's a county-by-county thing in NC, but suspect it is (I think in this case, reporting depends on the county in which you live, so vets in other counties might still report back to your home county if there's a requirement to do so). Back when I first heard VA was going to the rabies vaccine reporting thing, there was mention of states cooperating on this information dissemination, but I don't think that's being done--heck, they only recently started sharing DMV information that way.... Since I moved to a different county I haven't received any notices regarding licensing after getting an animal vaccinated, but both vet practices I use are in still different counties....

 

As for not vaccinating, I wouldn't do that. While I might choose to just vaccinate myself, that comes along with the risk that if your dog is ever exposed to a rabid animal, it will be considered unvaccinated by the state, and will most likely be euthanized. I prefer minimal vaccines, but on rabies I always follow the law. There are too many incidences of rabies around here for me to feel comfortable not vaccinating.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

On this subject we have had the Dog law make a serious attempt to see the house but, we dont allow it. Since mainly the old dogs and my parents privately licensed dogs live in there.

 

We only feel the dogs have to live better than most humans. Currently I dont have the AC on they have to have theirs on plus air cleaners and dehumidifiers.

 

They cant have dust, cobwebs, hair. In the state of Pa You may not have visible weeds on the kennel property. Honestly a person should not seek a kennel license unless it's an absolute must as all they rules are subjective unless they are specific like no chains, wire flooring or a specifically stated size.

 

It's quite easy to fall out, there are so many rules. Our biggest one is the State of Pa has a 12 weeks for Rabies rule even though it's commonly held in Pa not to vaccinate untill a dog is at least 16 weeks. We have to have specific paperwork for any dogs that cant be vaccinate for that reason or any other reason if they check.

[Wendy V]

Unfortunately, forgery is the most convenient compliance, in many cases.

[Eileen Stein]

A tidy home reflects a balanced life. A balanced life and a tidy home brings health and happiness to all creatures who reside there.

 

Personally, I think that a few muddy swishes on the wall at tail height is what makes a house a home, and that a house without dog hair is like a day without sunshine.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

NO weeds on kennel property?

 

That reminds me of one thing the officer said, I do have a couple of runs up near the barn where I used to put my old, old hound mixes when I was home, and I let my 4-H parents/kids put their dogs in them when they come to the farm (my rule, no loose dogs around the horses, not even mine). The runs have grown grass, she told me to cut the grass in them (hello, I don't use them). I have since round-upped the grass, cut it and dumped horse shavings on them. No more grass, but I still don't use them.

 

In VA, the vaccinating locality does not report to outside localities if the owner does not live in the vaccinating locality. I work in Richmond, live in Hanover, so unless I use the town vet (and I have) for rabies, it won't get sent on. I have no idea how they handle rabies clinics. My boss-vet does LOTS of clinics for his hunting dog localiites, he makes a pretty penny on them, and I seriously doubt any Richmond addresses show up for those.

 

I agree, if people feel they want to avoid the licensing, they won't be getting rabies vacs now, smart move. We do have rabies in this area, you hear about it all the time on the news, at least weekly if not a couple times a month, so I do vaccinate.

 

Friday, still no call from the chief. Tackroom kennel still taking shape. All the trunks are out, four more crates going in today. Got my feed cans already in there, fans working, put my dog meds in the cabinet with the horse meds. No big deal, starting to feel like WHATEVER. I am planning to go see Board of Supervisors on this though. Anyone can speak, I think it's reasonable to spend a few minutes asking them to rethink the loss of privacy thing. I do have a friend/aquaintance who is a law student AND wants to work in Hanover law, AND has sheep, dogs and might be interested in this situation, I'll ask about Westlaw, thanks!

[powerfulgazelle]

Personally, I think that a few muddy swishes on the wall at tail height is what makes a house a home, and that a house without dog hair is like a day without sunshine.

 

You mean, there ARE houses without dog hair?!

[ThunderHill]

Personally, I think that a few muddy swishes on the wall at tail height is what makes a house a home, and that a house without dog hair is like a day without sunshine.

 

AMEN!

[sea4th]

You mean, there ARE houses without dog hair?!

 

Yeh, they ain't got not dogs.

 

Once I gave someone a ride in my car which has dog fur seats. They said something like "Yuck. Dog hair". I asked them what did they expect. Cat hair? I have dogs, for Pete's sake! DUH!

[Patty Abel]

Wow, this has been interesting discussion. When we moved to Shenadoah county with six dogs three yrs ago I went to the county building to apply for a kennel license since i was planning on doing rescue and just thought it would be a way to be on the up and up. They explained to me that to have a kennel license you had to have a kennel (with all the regs and restrictions and inspections) and asked if my dogs were pets or was I a breeder. I am glad that the county cashier took the time to inform us when she could have just ask for a check for $50 and I would have paid it and then find myself having to scramble to comply.

Yes, when I have gotten foster dogs' rabies shots in my county i get a nice letter in the mail from the county. A license for an unsexed dog here is $4. If they get a rabies shot in a neighboring county I don't get a notice.

As for multiple dog living, I have had as many as eight dogs living in my house. After taking in several old intact males that were, well old intact males, I began to limit access to areas of my home, like MY bed and living room furniture. Went from vacuuming daily to bi-weekly. Now we are down to five dogs that happily live with us in half of the downstairs with 24-7 access to the yard. When we get dirty(at least twice a day!) I'm glad I don't have carpet!!

Deb, hoping things turn out ok, try not to worry too much.

[sheepandakom]

I have a kennel license for 50 dogs and have never had more than 12 adults at the house. My own plus rescues. I'm in Henrico, Hanover's neighbor. When I got my kennel license I had to show the county where my "kennel" was located to make sure it complied with the set backs but other than that they didn't ask for anything else and have never looked at my rabies certificates. I thought quick and told them my barn which is well off the property lines with houses on them was my kennel.

 

Because Henrico is fairly urban very few properties meet their zoning/setback requirements for a kennel so I think there hasn't really been a push to regulate kennels as much.

 

My vet is great and hadn't been sending the rabies stuff to the county like they wanted him to. When he finally complied, I received a pile of bills for individual licenses. I called the county to remind them that I already paid and they started to tell me that I needed to mail all of the bills back with a note. I told them that I wasn't willing to waste the $ on stamps and they put me through to the dog license lady. It turns out that they were matching the rabies certificates to licenses by the owner's name, not just the address. Anybody who had the vet records in their spouse's name or with/without their middle name (me) got duplicate bills. I think the whole thing is just ridiculous and intrusive.

 

I start at Hanover on Tuesday, but I'm working for the Commonwealth's Attorney's office so I'll be dealing mostly with crimes.

 

Emily

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Well, Emily, if I get thrown in jail in Hanover, I will be looking for your advice. Dang. SO, yoiu're saying I have to commit a crime?

 

When I did live in Henrico (born and raised, with a brief stint in City of Richmond) you had to have no more than 5 pets total, including cats. You license cats in Richmond. Go figure. I have had at least five dogs all the years I lived in Henrico, and just kept mum on the cats, we lived in a suburban neighborhood and your place is Ag, right? For me to even have more pets legally in Henrico, I had to go before the Board of Zoning Appeals, and I never did.

 

What I have done so far: all big kennels are in the tackroom, all nice and cozy. Fans are all on, all the outdoor runs (five total) and big pen are cleaned, fresh shavings on the ones that don't have rubber mats, and buckets for water. All rabies info up to date (Turk's expires Monday--maybe why she chose Tuesday to recheck me, vaccinated yesterday), Kennel Licence tag on a nifty wooden plaque, nailed up on the wall outside the door to the tackroom. Dog license tags are all on collars. All dogs will be bathed and polished beofre inspection, no they don't really need it, but this I can do.

 

Tuesday morning I will get up bright and early, walk everyone and put them in the barn. Feed the horses and send the back field five down the hill to the lower field, out of sight. (I have too many horses for the acreage we have, but our barn has ten stalls, and I ain't lookin' for anyone to start counting horses). To look at our place, you wouldn't think we have this many horses, but this has been one of my anxieties all along, that this would be the next issue. We pick up all field poop, compost and sell the "Black Gold" as a 4-H project.

 

I have sent a letter to the Board of Supervisors representative stating my case and informing him that I wish to address the Board on September 23 about the increasing government intrusion and oversight. I still have a call into the Chief AC man, he did not call me back last week as assured me by the field supervisor (also my friend).

 

I am still losing sleep over this, and maybe it's a symptom of a bigger problem, but it all seems so unreasonable.

[kelpiegirl]

I haven't posted earlier, but, I wanted to say that I think it stinks what you are going through. Inspectors will find something if they want to. The most important things are to have good clear records on your dogs- each with a file folder if possible. Keep things neat as possible, but realize, it can never be perfect. Take photos/videos on the day that you are inspected, for your records in case something comes up. Always be extremely friendly, and gracious to the inspectors, and discuss the hobbies that you do. Basically, the more friendly you are, the more friendly they will be. I might even go so far as to bake a cake, or brownies to give the house a nice aroma.. I know, sounds like serious butt kissing, but better to do that, then risk giving them reason to search deeper. A short inspection is what you want.

[trailrider]

It is amazing to me to hear all of the politics. Is there a similar detailed "inspection" for criminals housing stolen property, homes where children or others are abused, cars which are not maintained and present deadly possibilities, abusers who continue to live free, ....???

These "rules" and the people using them as part of their job with animal CONTROL continue to seem to become unjust. Stupid.

There are 10 dogs that sleep in my house. There is mud, dust, hair, leaves, drinking water, sheep manure bits and all kinds of stuff on the couch, floor and everywhere. Why would this be considered illegal in comparison with a dogless home with a similar mess?

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

There are 10 dogs that sleep in my house. There is mud, dust, hair, leaves, drinking water, sheep manure bits and all kinds of stuff on the couch, floor and everywhere. Why would this be considered illegal in comparison with a dogless home with a similar mess?

What I'm hearing is that it is not my right to subject my animals to live in a messy house, and I understand that, if it causes them harm. I have been a messy since I was born, ask anyone, and I am constantly trying to improve on it, but I stand that my animals speak for themselves. If you can see eight healthy animals, shouldn't you be able to assert that they are well-managed? I'm with you.

 

Right now all of them (Simon, Beryl, Jane, Turk, Dillon, Shea, Bailey and Pearl) are in the "kennel", I am vacuuming it of all mouse turds, cobwebs, and dust AND horse and dog hair. It isn't that bad, but it is a barn. The TV is playing a church program, I can microwave up a nice lunch there, kick back on the couch, and even live there myself IF i had to, but I am not (repeat NOT) letting her in my house. That's what got me in this mess, and I stand on it. Good idea about the brownies, I can get microwave brownies (maybe POPCORN) going in there before she comes, as it is, I clean with Mrs Meyers products, and the barn cleaner is Geranium, so it's pretty nice. THAT is the whole thing, she didn't see doggy-slum when she came before.

 

I will also heed the advice about taking pictures, it'll be handy for the Board meeting, AND if this escalates into a search warrant for the house thing, which I doubt. This whole thing is so stupid, and I am so done with it. I have better things to worry about in my life, making this all the more like harrassment.

[Sue R]

Debbie - Can't help you one bit but to offer moral support, and let you know I'm behind you all the way. Animals in your care will never suffer or go without, good household skills and housekeeping on your part or not.

 

Remember, it's the good folks who worry and fuss about doing things right - the bad folks that the laws are aimed at probably have nothing to worry about. They will find a way around any regulation. They are not concerned about the animals, and you are.

 

God bless!