Tobey

[Kenbo]

It also seems to me that if your dogs behavior is based entirely on his fear and respect of you, then it's pretty much game on when you're not around. Kenbo, I'm sure that you would never leave a child unattended with your dogs, but if someone else had trained a dog not to growl at a child by physically correcting the growl, the dog may just learn to growl (or worse) only when its owner isn't around.

 

Could not help it. I would not have any problem leaving my dogs unattended with a child. I say that from first hand knowledge because I have. It is the total control I have. They will work and play with even two year olds, rolling and playing on the ground. There has to be an Alpha and here I am it, but it was estabilshed early and sometimes it's just a look but they know it, and btw, I have never struck one of the dogs but I have put the fear of God into them and they know I mean business. Sometimes they are confused who the Alpha is and it should never never be them. Ken

[Ninso]

Respect can and will come from fear. All of my dogs will always come to me first to be loved, and I am the one who will hands out the corrections. My wife will attempt to make them do something and they will just look at her. She was never the enforcer. I will say one word and they jump to it either out of fear or love. Either way, I don't care, but they will do it. Ken

 

Respect has nothing to do with fear. I would disagree that dogs even have a concept of "respect." Usually when people talk about the fact that a dog does/should obey out of "respect" they mean that the dog should simply recognize the fact that the dog is naturally inferior to the human and obey for that reason alone. But if that was a natural concept to a dog, there would be no disobedient dogs. Usually in those cases, it is the human who thinks he/she is naturally superior to the dog, and thus had a right to treat his/her dog in any way he/she pleases.

 

Dogs don't obey commands out of respect. They obey because they have been motivated to do so, either out of a desire to avoid unpleasant consequences or out of a desire to produce pleasant consequences or because obeying has become a conditioned response through repeated use of either of the above. And love is a separate concept entirely. My dogs don't obey me because they love me (which I think they do) or because they "respect me" (which I don't believe dogs are capable of) but because I am the best thing in their world, that is, I control access to all the best things in their world.

[Kathy Chittenden]

I agree and maybe we're seeing the same thing but calling it a different name. A fear is a fear, but bad behavior is not the same, it's the bad action that I want corrected not the fear which is much harder. Biting in most cases and growling is a bad action. Maybe they don't want anyone in their space, which we all like at times, but the dog should not make this decision. As I have said many times, either you control the dog or the dog will control you. It's that simple. Fear biting is a whole new topic and it should be handled a little different, but not much. Got to go home from work. Ken

 

 

As someone who has taken in rescues and fostered for the past 7 years, I have to say the scariest dogs I've had are those who have been corrected for growling so don't bother to growl any more.

 

Growling is dog language - snuff that out and they will no longer warn you. People have a hard enough time reading dog body language which is usually pretty clear if you've studied them, lived with them, loved them long enough.

 

Give me a growling dog any day over one who has had that snuffed out.

 

Dog growls at child - dog is punished.

Dog sees child again - doesn't growl because he knows he'll be punished - dog just bites instead.

Most of the dogs I've seen, including my own, are uncomfortable with children. They don't know what these small creatures with big heads on wobbly legs are about to do as they toddle over. It's fear, the growl is a warning "stay back kid you're freakin' me out!"

Even dogs who lived with older children still are uncomfortable with toddling children.

Listen to your dogs -

 

What I do about the child example:

Dog sees child in distance - before dog can growl, he gets goodies, small bites, tasty treats.

Child goes out of sight, food stops.

Child comes back into sight, feed dog.

Don't push dog beyond threshold.

Go slowly, stop on a good note.

Dog eventually sees child approaching as good thing and not fearful thing.

 

If dog is toy motivated I often incorporate child into the games - throw ball - while having a line on the dog for safety so the child means "good things happen."

 

With fostering I take things very slowly. New dogs to my household get to do "nothing" but decelerate and learn to listen, watch, feel the atmosphere of my home before I ask them to accept my pets, hugs, I don't know what they've been exposed to most of the time. They get their "rules", learn the routine, settle in before being asked to be cuddled and hugged. Dogs like space, hugging and cuddling are things humans like and some dogs may or may not appreciate. If your dog twitches his ears as you swoop down for a hug or kiss, stop! It's too much pressure! Wait for the relationship with you to develop and grow, let the trust develop and grow.

 

I find it is really closer to 2 months before I really get to know my fosters...

 

Time is your friend...enjoy your new boy Tim!

 

Kathy

www.sugarbushfarm.net

and just for fun - doggie pics - www.sugarbushfarm.blogspot.com

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, I thought we had gone past the whole fear-motivated way of training animals. It's a shame it still exists, especially when non-fear-based methods have proven to be just as effective (and certainly more pleasant for the animal). I feel sorry for the animals who are subjected to that form of training. Does anyone remember a discussion some years ago regarding forcing an animal to do something because you can? Several people stated that if the dog didn't want to go into a kennel, they would simply force it to do so. The horse analogy was brought up as well, with comments being made about forcing horses to do something they didn't want to do. At the time, my argument was simple, and it's something that has been touched on at least peripherally here: I said, If the horse doesn't want to go in its stall or the dog doesn't want to go in its kennel, I would first look to be sure that there was nothing in stall or kennel that was making the animal afraid to enter. It is no skin off my back to do that one small thing before proceeding with the forcing part. It's not new age, touchy feely thinking; it's just acknowleding that and animal might actually have a valid reason for behaving in a particular way. They aren't robots, and they do react to external stimuli. And I think that's something people often forget. Especially for an animal that normally behaves one way and then suddenly "revolts." There well may be a cause, and I would at least give the animal the benefit of the doubt and look for a cause before coming down with a "fear of God" consequence. I know that's a little off track, but I think it needs to be said with respect to training and animal behavior in general.

 

I agree with much of what Tania, Wendy, and Mary P have said. I would never scare a puppy to death for being afraid of something. I would encourage it to investigate the thing it fears and figure out that it need not be afraid. Same with horses or any other animal. I would place much greater faith in the response of the animal that has been allowed/shown how to work through its fear than the animal that had a fear reaction quashed by violence. I think the latter animal is much more likely to have unpredictable responses to fear stimuli. I'm not an animal behaviorist, but that's my common sense thought on the subject.

 

Kathy C. also makes an important point. Extinguish the warning behaviors and you just might end up with a dog or other animal that's a loose cannon--with no one able to tell when it might fire, so to speak.

 

I own a fear aggressive dog, whom I got as an 18-month-old rescue. I learned early on that physically correcting him for snapping or any other fear-based behavior just escalated it. Since I am the one with the big brain, I figured out that I'd have to come up with a different way to deal with his issues. Sorry, but I'm not about to wrestle an animal that can seriously hurt me to the ground to put him on his back and show him who's boss. At that point he would simply be reacting to his fear (and therefore not learning anything except that his fear was justified). And I'd probably be severely bitten for my trouble. Farleigh and I have co-existed for 9 years now, and he's had his teeth on my maybe four times total and on just one occasion did he break the skin (but it was a bad one). In every instance, I ignored a known trigger--that is, I did something that I knew would trigger a fear bite response out of him. And it did. Again, I have the big brain; I should have known better, but I did what I did anyway and the result was predictable. Farleigh doesn't run this house; he doesn't get away with bad behavior; and he's certainly not the boss of this place or the pack--in fact he defers to just about everyone (human and dog) here. And he's perfectly friendly with adults and children alike, though I wouldn't trust him alone with children because I know they wouldn't remember what triggers him (mainly grabbing quickly at his collar). So it boggles the mind how some of you would assume that since I didn't "put the fear of God in him" (why? he's *already* fearful) he's somehow out of control or doesn't know how to live peaceably with me and the rest of the animals here.

 

To take this slightly OT, in the papers that say what I want done with my dogs should I die unexpectedly, Farleigh is the one dog I won't place. He will be PTS. Why? Because my biggest fear is that he would end up in the hands of someone who thinKs force and fear training are the answer. And no dog of mine will ever be put in such a situation if I can help it. That's also the reason why I chose to keep him rather than place him back when I first rescued him. At least I know I'll treat him fairly.

 

J.

[Izzysdad]

As someone who has taken in rescues and fostered for the past 7 years, I have to say the scariest dogs I've had are those who have been corrected for growling so don't bother to growl any more.

 

Growling is dog language - snuff that out and they will no longer warn you. People have a hard enough time reading dog body language which is usually pretty clear if you've studied them, lived with them, loved them long enough.

 

Give me a growling dog any day over one who has had that snuffed out.

 

Dog growls at child - dog is punished.

Dog sees child again - doesn't growl because he knows he'll be punished - dog just bites instead.

Most of the dogs I've seen, including my own, are uncomfortable with children. They don't know what these small creatures with big heads on wobbly legs are about to do as they toddle over. It's fear, the growl is a warning "stay back kid you're freakin' me out!"

Even dogs who lived with older children still are uncomfortable with toddling children.

Listen to your dogs -

 

What I do about the child example:

Dog sees child in distance - before dog can growl, he gets goodies, small bites, tasty treats.

Child goes out of sight, food stops.

Child comes back into sight, feed dog.

Don't push dog beyond threshold.

Go slowly, stop on a good note.

Dog eventually sees child approaching as good thing and not fearful thing.

 

If dog is toy motivated I often incorporate child into the games - throw ball - while having a line on the dog for safety so the child means "good things happen."

 

With fostering I take things very slowly. New dogs to my household get to do "nothing" but decelerate and learn to listen, watch, feel the atmosphere of my home before I ask them to accept my pets, hugs, I don't know what they've been exposed to most of the time. They get their "rules", learn the routine, settle in before being asked to be cuddled and hugged. Dogs like space, hugging and cuddling are things humans like and some dogs may or may not appreciate. If your dog twitches his ears as you swoop down for a hug or kiss, stop! It's too much pressure! Wait for the relationship with you to develop and grow, let the trust develop and grow.

 

I find it is really closer to 2 months before I really get to know my fosters...

 

Time is your friend...enjoy your new boy Tim!

 

He is a super sweet guy, and we will enjoy him very much! I learned today just how smart he is, we were in the backyard and he was understanding commands so quickly it was scary. We only worked for a few minutes of course, but I saw real potential in this guy. He and Izzy LOVE each other and the sky is the limit with him. He also spent two months at the rescue farm, Kathy which is glen highland farm out in Morris, NY. I'm sure you know/herd of them and they have done wonders already about his barking issue. What this guy really wants is to have people that love him and pay attention to him and has recieved that until just a few months ago, so he is still adjusting and will be for some time.

[PSmitty]

Great post, Julie.

 

Tim, you've gotten some great advice, and some really awful advice. I'm pretty sure you're on the right track with Tobey, just remember to take it slow and possibly back off and give him more space and time. GHF is great, and I know that you can talk to them at any time and they'll help in any way. They want his transition to be as smooth as possible, just as you do. Best of luck!

[Root Beer]

He also spent two months at the rescue farm, Kathy which is glen highland farm out in Morris, NY.

 

Cool!! We adopted Dean - the dog in my avatar to the left - from GHF.

 

Do contact them if you have any further trouble. They will definitely help you out!

[Izzysdad]

Thanks all! Thankfully I'm a pretty smart guy backed by a very smart lady so we'll get this all worked out. I like seeing all opinions and angles on all matters. Only a fool goes into a problem with a closed mind. The really caught us both of guard and we did speak to the farm and they were flat out shocked. We started putting a system in place on Sat. and I'm sure I'll post updates.

 

Anyways, let's end this thread and move onto talking about the FUN things our BC's do shall we?

[Caroline Reichard]

Could not help it. I would not have any problem leaving my dogs unattended with a child. I say that from first hand knowledge because I have. It is the total control I have. They will work and play with even two year olds, rolling and playing on the ground. There has to be an Alpha and here I am it, but it was estabilshed early and sometimes it's just a look but they know it, and btw, I have never struck one of the dogs but I have put the fear of God into them and they know I mean business. Sometimes they are confused who the Alpha is and it should never never be them. Ken

 

 

Kenbo,

 

I gotta say, I never cease to be amazed by your posts.

 

For the benefit of other, perhaps more junior, members of these boards who do not have this sort of godlike aplha control:

 

Do not do this at home with your dog and your children. In the world in which I live, ANY dog will bite given the right provocation and ANY two year old can do ANYTHING at ANY moment. For the sake of the lawsuit, your dog, and your two olds: please do not leave your dog and child to roll around the floor unsupervised.

 

Signing off from planet earth,

[Sue R]

Could not help it. I would not have any problem leaving my dogs unattended with a child. I say that from first hand knowledge because I have. It is the total control I have. They will work and play with even two year olds, rolling and playing on the ground. There has to be an Alpha and here I am it, but it was estabilshed early and sometimes it's just a look but they know it, and btw, I have never struck one of the dogs but I have put the fear of God into them and they know I mean business. Sometimes they are confused who the Alpha is and it should never never be them. Ken

emphasis mine

I sure hope that no two-year-old (or any other) child pays for your supreme arrogance.

[SoloRiver]

I will say one word and they jump to it either out of fear or love. Either way, I don't care

 

That's very sad.

[OurBoys]

Could not help it. I would not have any problem leaving my dogs unattended with a child. I say that from first hand knowledge because I have. It is the total control I have. They will work and play with even two year olds, rolling and playing on the ground. There has to be an Alpha and here I am it, but it was estabilshed early and sometimes it's just a look but they know it, and btw, I have never struck one of the dogs but I have put the fear of God into them and they know I mean business. Sometimes they are confused who the Alpha is and it should never never be them. Ken

I sure hope that no two-year-old (or any other) child pays for your supreme arrogance.

And I hope and pray he never gets a bully breed. How many articles have (general) you read about a dog that "never showed aggression before" or "s/he had always liked kid in the past" or "I don't know why s/he suddenly turned like that". Maybe because........

Dog growls at child - dog is punished.

Dog sees child again - doesn't growl because he knows he'll be punished - dog just bites instead.

But that's just my .02.

[Lenajo]

A note on Robert Miller DVM's methods. Miller is known for "imprinting" of foals to be handable. What he does (and you can see it on dvd/video) is gently and totally a handle newborn foals while they are still weak and quiet from birth. Ears, feet, face, tail, running the clippers, everything. He does not tie the foal down, threaten it, or deliberately frighten it. Hence "imprinting". Supposably then you can then turn the colt loose for months/years and it will remember these things and be easier to train.

 

I know quite a few people that do it, and so far it seems to make very little difference with the adult horse later unless it is kept up, slowly and gently (aka "training" and "socializing"...go figure). A friend of mine was a grand prix level rider and she and other friends competing at that level tells me the whole method is regarded as somewhat of a joke. They much prefer to train the colts slowing and steadily as it traditional. And to add to this, the last thing they are going to do with a expensive and promising colt is deliberately frighten it, tie it down/sack it out or otherwise abuse it in the name of "respect". They know there are better ways, less injurous for sure, and certainly more successful in making a relationship of quality. And they certainly have the success to prove it.

[Ooky]

some people give advise on things they should not even attempt to. Shurly you would agree to this.

 

Well, that's clearly true.

 

I don't get your point. Amongst all these unqualified non-experts you alone should be giving advice? Or is this an argument meant to say, my advice is equally good as anyone else's? Just because one has a right to a differing view does not mean that view is necessarily correct.

 

As for the colt thing, I read Dr. Miller's description and didn't understand that holding a colt down until they relax would be part of his methods as described? I know this is a training method still in use, as my first trainer did it to my dog. Odin, who has never bit anyone, bit her when she first put him down, and my trainer knew he was going to bite because I hadn't been doing that to him "like I should" for his whole upbringing. So, I for one have seen first hand how an approach like that can even make a very trusting, friendly, non-reactive dog react badly. She said if I kept doing it he'd quit biting eventually but since he has never bitten either before or since, I kind of fail to see where starting that as a regular confrontation would help anything! And colts are so scaredy compared to dogs, it seems like it would be even harder on them.

[aljones]

Since discussion in this thread has turned to qualifications and what makes one an "expert" in the field of dog training and behavior, I decided to share some information I recently read about people's attitudes toward dogs and children.

 

I thought a brief summary of a report published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association relevant here. Granted, I have only read the summary, not the full report (since the summary was published in DogWatch, a monthly publication out of Cornell's College of Vet Med, and I subscribe to it). But I think most of us would agree that the JAVMA is an "expert" source, and perhaps some of our members in that field would be able to share a fuller explanation and/or critique of the report itself (it is in vol. 233, no. 9, just fyi).

 

Title of the report: "Effects of gender and parental status on knowledge and attitudes of dog owners regarding dog aggression toward children."

 

Summary as presented in DogWatch (vol. 13, no. 3, March 2009):

 

The study asked 804 people whether they agreed or disagreed with 37 different statements, such as "Dogs should never be left alone with infants," "Dogs that are properly trained simply do not bite people, regardless of provocation," and "I think it is safe for young children to kiss and hug dogs."

 

The study was conducted by dog-behavior experts who too often see the results when people trust dogs too much. They concluded: "There was a general lack of knowledge regarding dog behavior and safety practices for dog-child interactions. Women were more knowledgeable than men, regardless of parental status. Mothers were more knowledgeable than fathers."

[Lenajo]

As for the colt thing, I read Dr. Miller's description and didn't understand that holding a colt down until they relax would be part of his methods as described? Ito dogs, it seems like it would be even harder on them.

 

Ooky they don't have to hold the colts down. They are tired and weak from birth. At that point they are still imprinting on the mare (which is another reason that Miller's methods have been dropped at some stables) and the attempt is to include human handling int he imprinting period.

 

The goal is to do this *before* the colt is strong enough, aware enough to object.

 

This is why Amelia's example doesn't fit with forcing a dog to do anything.

[Eileen Stein]

I have deleted a number of posts in a tangent started by Kenbo, debating who is "expert" enough to be entitled to post and/or to have their posts taken seriously. Please stick to the topic and refrain from disparaging other posters' "expertise." As juliepoudrier said in one of the deleted posts, "The beauty of a forum like this is that anyone can post questions and anyone can answer. It's up to the readers to decide, after reading the discussions, what advice they think is suitable for their situation. If you (the generic you) answers a question, you have to be prepared for the fact that others might disagree with you, sometimes vehemently. It serves no purpose to try and answer such disagreement by labeling the people who disagree with you as non-experts, because of course by doing so, you are implying that you *are* the expert, and I think we all know that isn't the case."

[mbc1963]

I would say that lots of people in here share their experiences without considering themselves experts.

 

People who have experience with fear-reactive dogs have been wonderfully helpful to me in working with my reactive dog. Does that make them experts at dog training? No, but I'd say they're probably more expert on fear-reactivity than professional trainers who've never worked with reactive dogs. Witness the countless topics in which people discuss bringing their fear-reactive dogs to trainers who either offer no helpful advice or create a larger problem.

 

In my experience on the forum, the best practical advice comes from people who live the life every day. It might be stories of dogs with diabetes, or a torn ACL, or excessive shedding, or jumping, or putting too much pressure on sheep.

 

I'm a bright person who can read training and dog psychology books for the science and theory; I come here for hands-on empathy and shared experiences.

 

Mary

[Little Bo Boop]

I know quite a few people that do it, and so far it seems to make very little difference with the adult horse later unless it is kept up, slowly and gently (aka "training" and "socializing"...go figure). A friend of mine was a grand prix level rider and she and other friends competing at that level tells me the whole method is regarded as somewhat of a joke. They much prefer to train the colts slowing and steadily as it traditional. And to add to this, the last thing they are going to do with a expensive and promising colt is deliberately frighten it, tie it down/sack it out or otherwise abuse it in the name of "respect". They know there are better ways, less injurous for sure, and certainly more successful in making a relationship of quality. And they certainly have the success to prove it.

 

 

Yep. 'Imprinting" from what I understand, has pretty much been discounted by the mainstream...more gimmick than anything else (think Parelli and his carrot stick ;-) )

While I see no problem with handling a yound horse from birth, I don't think Amelia's 'sacking out, and holding them down "almost as soon as they hit the ground" (I'm not even sure that's a practice that is advocated by the proponants of Imprinting) would be a 'good thing'. I mean really, what's the point? What are you trying to accomplish? What possible benefit could come of it? I would venture to guess that if you take the time to start a horse correctly, you'd see no difference in the colt that had been 'imprinted' and the one that hadn't. JMHO.

 

As to advising someone on an internet chat board, to throw their "new, possibly aggressive dog", on their back and put the fear of god in them yikes sure seems to me like that could be a recipe for disaster...

 

Betty

[jackson's mom]

I agree. But about 20 minutes ago he was lying on the floor in my office and Katie was sitting about 3-4 feet away talking to me and she reached out to pet him and he did it again. Odd.

 

Jackson is the same way with me. He gets moody. If he has had a long day and we are reading or watching TV, he doesn't want me to disturb him. He will show teeth if I even speak when he is resting and if I put my hand toward him he will growl. My husband can pet or touch him when he is in these moods, but I can't. I learned my lesson -- I have two scars on my right arm where Jack grabbed me when I tried to pet him while he was in a 'mood'. He told me beforehand that he was going to do it but I didn't believe it. Now I do. I'm not sure how to correct this. Most times he is just great but then his mood swings he's the dog to watch for....for me anyway.

[nancy in AZ]

deleted-- off topic post about horse training

[Root Beer]

Jackson is the same way with me. He gets moody. If he has had a long day and we are reading or watching TV, he doesn't want me to disturb him. He will show teeth if I even speak when he is resting and if I put my hand toward him he will growl. My husband can pet or touch him when he is in these moods, but I can't. I learned my lesson -- I have two scars on my right arm where Jack grabbed me when I tried to pet him while he was in a 'mood'. He told me beforehand that he was going to do it but I didn't believe it. Now I do. I'm not sure how to correct this. Most times he is just great but then his mood swings he's the dog to watch for....for me anyway.

 

Hi Jackson'smom!

 

The book that I recommended in Post #38 on this thread might be helpful to you, as well.

[pansmom]

That's very sad.

 

I'm with Melanie here...

[martySQ]

I feel sorry for the animals who are subjected to that form of training. Does anyone remember a discussion some years ago regarding forcing an animal to do something because you can? Several people stated that if the dog didn't want to go into a kennel, they would simply force it to do so. The horse analogy was brought up as well, with comments being made about forcing horses to do something they didn't want to do. At the time, my argument was simple, and it's something that has been touched on at least peripherally here: I said, If the horse doesn't want to go in its stall or the dog doesn't want to go in its kennel, I would first look to be sure that there was nothing in stall or kennel that was making the animal afraid to enter. It is no skin off my back to do that one small thing before proceeding with the forcing part. ... Especially for an animal that normally behaves one way and then suddenly "revolts." There well may be a cause, and I would at least give the animal the benefit of the doubt and look for a cause before coming down with a "fear of God" consequence. I know that's a little off track, but I think it needs to be said with respect to training and animal behavior in general....

Wow, just 2 weeks ago, Bess was not wanting to go into her kennel at night...couldn't figure it out, within 2 nights, I realized the trouble... her blanket was smelling mildewish, ...I had put a frozen water jug in her kennel so she could lick condensation if she was thirsty at night. Usually there is little water in kennel in the AM, but this jug she had chewed on and poked a hole in the handle so the water leaked out partially... smart dog, dumb owner! I felt bad for pushing her in there for 2 nights, and I'm much more inclined to "listen" to her hesitations now.

LOL, for that matter, even our dumb ducks are smarter than I sometimes! One night they didn't want to go into their hut... I looked, couldn't see a problem, sometimes there are black snakes hiding waiting on an egg for breakfast or late dinner, didn't see any snake... finally got them all in the hut, started to put the door down... and guess who was all coiled up in the wire front the door had been covering! Yup... Mr. Black Snake himself.