RoseAmy Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Bob, My not quite year old spitefire is aggressive presence big time. I feel Nancy's pain! I've done just what you have advised her to do. And after much running her down/blocking I've gotten a down on her. A few days ago things started to fall apart..I have been teaching her flanks and at first thought she was confused then I realized that she had gotten a lot of eye and was getting clappy. So I started to correct her for being clappy, when she would not move I walk towards her and smack the whip on the ground and tell her to get up. Within minutes I had her freed up. Then she starts to get pushy and racy again BUT when I down her (I know it's time for a stand) she gets clappy. When she clappy she won't even circle the sheep she goes half way turns in and drops to the ground. I feel like all I'm doing is getting on to her..I do coo her a good girl when she's right..Any suggestions would be greatly aggpreciated. I might add this pup off sheep is one tuff cookie she tends to feel it's her way or no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hi Bob,My not quite year old spitefire is aggressive presence big time. I feel Nancy's pain! I've done just what you have advised her to do. And after much running her down/blocking I've gotten a down on her. A few days ago things started to fall apart..I have been teaching her flanks and at first thought she was confused then I realized that she had gotten a lot of eye and was getting clappy. So I started to correct her for being clappy, when she would not move I walk towards her and smack the whip on the ground and tell her to get up. Within minutes I had her freed up. Then she starts to get pushy and racy again BUT when I down her (I know it's time for a stand) she gets clappy. When she clappy she won't even circle the sheep she goes half way turns in and drops to the ground. I feel like all I'm doing is getting on to her..I do coo her a good girl when she's right..Any suggestions would be greatly aggpreciated. I might add this pup off sheep is one tuff cookie she tends to feel it's her way or no way. I, obviously, don't know what size field or pen you are working her in but I would suggest that you move out to a larger field, about an acre, and start doing short outruns with her to gather the sheep to you. I think you are doing a fair amount of circling at a short distance and trying to teach the dog flanks and things might be a bit hairy doing this. I, personally, don't use a round pen nor do I circle a dog to teach flanks. The first thing I do with a young dog, even if they are still on a line, is teach it to outrun in a small field. This is done by getting between the sheep and the dog at about 50 yards or where ever you can control the dog, sshhing him out to either side, making sure he goes out and not straight in by moving towards him pushing him back and out at the same time. Before he arrives at the back of the sheep you start backing away so that he can bring them to you and keep backing away until he gets them there. This is a good place to use your lie down that is working to control the pace of the sheep. To keep the dog balancing move around as he is bringing you the sheep so that you change the balance point often so he's aware of where you are all the time. Basically you are teaching flanks when you send him on his outrun and when you get out in the field with him and your walking away from the sheep get to a point that you think he can gather well from, lie him down, back away to a point where you can control the arc of his outrun and send him again. This tends to keep the dog calm as compared to circling which tends to just fire the dog up more and more. Once you have the dog outrunning you can start to teach him his flanks. As far as the clappiness is concerened, it is probably being caused by working too close and creating a lot of pressure on the dog. When you start doing outruns, this will probably stop but the normal cure for a clappy dog is to keep it in motion while working and keep things as calm as possible. It's good that you have the down now as you are able to control things and now you need to stretch the dog out so he is not moving his sheep while flanking and take some of the pressure off. Be very careful with the use of the whip. It should only be used to make your arem longedr and not to scare the dog. Remember that down the road you will be using a stock stick or crook to run this dog and you don't want him scared or shy of it. If you need to break a dog's focus try calling it's name or clapping your hands rather smacking your whip on the ground. Yoiu can start putting a flank command on the dog when he appears to be getting fair at his outruns and then you can use the sshh and the flank all the time from then on until you just need the flank. Keep your dog moving as much as possible by you moving your self to change the balance point until the dog understands that he must be square on his flanks. Try not to work him in the flight zone as he will be moving the sheep all the time if you do. You do not want the sheep moving when teaching flanks or the outrun. I usually just keep doing short outruns and let the dog gather until he has his flanks down pat and then I wsill do short flanks to teach him to turn back on himself without a stop later on. I do not believe in drilling and some of these exercises can become drilling if carried on too long. Keep mixing up your training sessions so the dog doesn't become bored and don't train a young dog any longer than about 15 minutes at a time. Do it as often as you like during the day but no longer than 15 minutes or shorter if necessary. You'll know that you have worked too long as he's going to start making mistakes and quit listening and things are going to turn to mush on you. Do a short gather and end on a good note and quite right then. Try this and let me know how things are going......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Thanks for the suggestions Bob. The fields I work her in range from 3 acres to 20 acres. And in this heat it's hard to get 10 minutes of work in..so we are good in that department. Had not really been pushing training outruns was trying to make sure I had control..So was VERY surprised when I tried it how much calmer she stayed. Then she blew me away when a gate that someone forgot to latch blew open part way and the sheep slipped out when I was working her..By the time the last sheep went through the first sheep was half way acrossed the 20 acre field and those babies were booking. Well so much for my stop LOL she shot out there after them and I thought I had a great big wreck coming..but puppy cast around them halfway there she realized that she had to go wider to stop them and did. Next thing I know she's at the top and very calmly walked the sheep back. Thanks again..we will be working outruns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill virginia Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Bob,My not quite year old spitefire is aggressive presence big time. I feel Nancy's pain! I've done just what you have advised her to do. And after much running her down/blocking I've gotten a down on her. A few days ago things started to fall apart..I have been teaching her flanks and at first thought she was confused then I realized that she had gotten a lot of eye and was getting clappy. So I started to correct her for being clappy, when she would not move I walk towards her and smack the whip on the ground and tell her to get up. Within minutes I had her freed up. Then she starts to get pushy and racy again BUT when I down her (I know it's time for a stand) she gets clappy. When she clappy she won't even circle the sheep she goes half way turns in and drops to the ground. I feel like all I'm doing is getting on to her..I do coo her a good girl when she's right..Any suggestions would be greatly aggpreciated. I might add this pup off sheep is one tuff cookie she tends to feel it's her way or no way. what is clappy or clapping??????????????????????? bill virginia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hey Bill..clappy is a dog that has too much eye. They control the sheep using so much eye that they (the dog not the sheep) almost go into a trance. When that happens it can be hard to get them back up on their feet and moving again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill virginia Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Hey Bill..clappy is a dog that has too much eye. They control the sheep using so much eye that they (the dog not the sheep) almost go into a trance. When that happens it can be hard to get them back up on their feet and moving again. thanks i looked over my books and could not find anything about it. bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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