Why did you choose a border collie?

[OurBoys]

But as long as people keep taking their dogs to stock, SOMEONE will know what these dogs can do, and will care.

 

Sometimes I feel that possibly thanks to this board, the number is growing.

I agree. We adopted JJ before I knew of this board but it's because of this board I got the 'Herd Urge Disease'.

[Carson Crazies]

But as long as people keep taking their dogs to stock, SOMEONE will know what these dogs can do, and will care.

 

Sometimes I feel that possibly thanks to this board, the number is growing.

 

I think so, too. When I wound up with Bree I'd always had the general idea that border collies were stockdogs. But until I came to this board I'd not had any sort of thought like, "Hey, why don't I go try her on sheep?". Until I came to YOUR place (Becca's that is) I'd never had the thought like, "Ooooh, I want a REAL border collie".

 

I think it's easy to forget because we've been here a while, there are many of us that had lightbulb moments because of this board and the people on it.

 

And to shift slightly back... I will say that my relationship with Nick and Linc (and to a great degree June as well) is very much different from my relationship with my non working dogs. I think they would have been happy living whatever life I'd have chosen for us, but I also believe that they're more fulfilled when we're out working stock than any other times.

 

I think the real distinction is that a border collie can live a happy and fulfilled life doing things other than stockwork, but that they should be bred for working ability only (and there needs to be, IMO, a strong contingent of working homes and working breeders to make sure that this happens). It's not like we don't say this over and over. I wonder if it wouldn't be perfectly appropriate to consider what Jack's saying and look at it more as "the heart and soul of the border collie (as a breed) is working stock".

[Root Beer]

And to shift slightly back... I will say that my relationship with Nick and Linc (and to a great degree June as well) is very much different from my relationship with my non working dogs. I think they would have been happy living whatever life I'd have chosen for us, but I also believe that they're more fulfilled when we're out working stock than any other times.

 

And a parallel - I often say the same things about my relationship with my sport dogs vs. my relationship with our dog who is just a pet.

 

In fact, in a lot of ways Maddie and I really didn't have much of a bond at all until we really got into Agility together. The effect that the partnership of training and running and competing together - and succeeding and failing together - has really made a difference in every aspect of our relationship. It's pretty cool.

 

And I don't think there is a dog I will ever have quite the relationship that I have with Speedy - we have been through pretty much everything together.

 

That's actually a big part of the reason why I continue to train Dean for sports even though he may never really do much in the way of competition. It does have a major effect on our relationship, as well as his confidence. And, in a way, his level of "fulfillment". (And no, I'm not saying that a dog needs sports to be fulfilled - but that in Dean's specific case it is better for him to train for sports than for him not to).

 

I definitely love Sammie, but there is something that just isn't there with him and me. Before I got into sports with my others, I wouldn't have thought that, but it is really obvious now. He's definitely happy, but something is missing that isn't there with the others.

 

OK, kind of a new tangent here . . . .

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Speedy and Dean wouldn't have technically been more fulfilled if they had a chance to work stock on a regular basis, but I can say without a doubt that they aren't missing it in any way. There are no round pegs in square holes around here. Everyone fits very nicely.

 

To take it a step further (and actually to go back to the original topic!!), the "issues" that both Speedy and Dean have had (and worked through or are working through) aren't because they are Border Collies who don't do stockwork. It is because something is "off" in their brain chemistry. I see this exact same thing in dogs of all breeds, just as I see many Border Collies who truly have lovely temperaments.

 

I do want to point out, also, that those "issues" had nothing to do with fulfillment or lack thereof. Again, we are dealing with brain chemistry. Dean isn't noise phobic because he is unfulfilled. Speedy wasn't fearful of people and dogs earlier in his life because he was unfulfilled. I would say that bringing a sense of fulfillment into their lives has been very helpful to both of them, but unfulfillment did not cause those problems nor did fulfillment alone solve the problems. (Ha - I wish it could!!).

 

And the people who come on here and post asking for help with aggression or fear or behavior problems, etc., aren't experiencing those problems because their dogs are unfulfilled. Again, giving the dog a "job" or purpose and doing quality activities (not necessarily sports, but something!) can be a component in helping the dog work through those problems, but that's not the whole answer.

 

I know most of you already know this and I don't think anybody brought this point up before (if they did and I missed it, I beg pardon!!), but somehow it got in my mind and I thought I'd throw it out there!!

[juliepoudrier]

And the people who come on here and post asking for help with aggression or fear or behavior problems, etc., aren't experiencing those problems because their dogs are unfulfilled. Again, giving the dog a "job" or purpose and doing quality activities (not necessarily sports, but something!) can be a component in helping the dog work through those problems, but that's not the whole answer.

Actually I don't think this is entirely true. I think in some cases the dogs would be the way they are no matter what (brain chemistry), but in other cases the behavior problems, etc., are the direct result of "disengaged" humans who don't give the dogs what they need in the way of physical and especially mental stimulation (and the latter includes training to be a mannerly dog). I don't think dogs are humans, so I don't think they consider their lives in terms of whether they're fulfilled or not--a dog that's only ever done agility or that's only ever gone jogging with its human partner or that's only ever worked stock all day on the farm isn't really aware that, as we humans would say "There's more to life than this," or "There's something else out there, and I might be missing it." The human part of the equation might worry about the dog's fulfillment, but the dog doesn't.

 

And so that takes us back to what we do with these dogs, and as I've said all along, the best thing is for the human to do being *something* with their dog. I don't expect everyone who gets a border collie to go buy sheep, ducks, or cattle and the farm to house them and then work that dog. I do think people who get border collies should be prepared to engage their minds and bodies *in some way.* But as great as these dogs are at all things, nothing really does beat seeing (and experiencing) the natural instinct to work that a well-bred border collie shows. Does that make all the dogs who don't work stock somehow less? No. But unless the people who don't use the dogs for their real intended purpose can come to understand the importance of the genetic package that's bred for and maintained in these dogs *for that purposes* and which also results in making them great for so many other things, then the breed will be in trouble if it isn't already.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Actually I don't think this is entirely true. I think in some cases the dogs would be the way they are no matter what (brain chemistry), but in other cases the behavior problems, etc., are the direct result of "disengaged" humans who don't give the dogs what they need in the way of physical and especially mental stimulation (and the latter includes training to be a mannerly dog).

 

I think this can, and does happen - especially when the dog is tearing up carpets or barking at the mailman or is constantly running off the property, etc. Although it's important to remember that sometimes even those types of problem behaviors are caused by things like separation anxiety, which can't always be resolved by providing activity, training, and structure. It's always so important to take the whole picture of the individual dog into account.

 

When you get into aggression, phobias, pathalogical shyness, etc., that stuff doesn't happen because the human is disengaged, etc. That's brain chemistry, temperament, etc. (I know you know all of this already, but it definitely bears repeating! So many people who try to fix these problems on their own run into a brick wall when they realize that there is not a simple fix)

 

Granted, nurture absolutely can help coutneract nature. And lack of nurture can lead to a poor temperament manifesting in ways it might not have had the nurture been there.

 

In that case, I personally wouldn't really call it lack of fulfillment, and I would not say that it's not because the Border Collie is not working stock, but because some training, structure, and mental stimulation of some sort is needed. Stockwork is a great option for those who are interested, can find a good instructor, and can afford it. But for those who aren't interested, can't find a good instructor, or can't afford it, there is a great variety of ways to provide that to the dog.

 

Which really dovetails off of what you said here . . . !!!

 

But unless the people who don't use the dogs for their real intended purpose can come to understand the importance of the genetic package that's bred for and maintained in these dogs *for that purposes* and which also results in making them great for so many other things, then the breed will be in trouble if it isn't already.

 

Good point. I'm definitely with you on that.

[Jimmyd65]

So do you plan to never own a Border Collie again since you don't work your dog? Weren't you just saying you wanted a pal for Tommy to play with?

 

Kenbo, there are lots of ways to live successfully with dogs, including Border Collies. Some of the most well-adjusted, happy dogs I've met lived in cities their whole lives. There are a number of people on these boards who live in urban settings very nicely with their Border Collies. Scads of dogs are extremely content and well cared for and dearly loved even though their owners work outside the home and lead busy lives.

 

I think "good" owners make a commitment to their dogs to give them a good life (whether that life meets another person's standards or not). They lead dog-centric lives that take into account the dog's needs and continue to learn and grow as a trainer with each dog. They understand that owning dogs involves a certain amount of sacrifice, but they spend the money and time and they arrange their schedules as needed because living without dogs would feel empty and less joyous.

 

 

Liz,

 

Well put. We live in suburban Philadelphia (30) miles NW. We live in a nice neighborhood with plenty of yard. Our Layla just loves everybody. We try to keep diversity in her life. Herding classes, frisbee sessions in the backyard, long walks, rides on our boat, and agility classes this Fall. I agree that this breed should be preserved and bred for working ability. But I disagree that a BC is unhappy or non-productive living out of that realm. Layla is our first border collie and I can't see having another breed. She is just the sweetest and gentle little dog I've ever met. We're lucky to have her...