Why did you choose a border collie?

[jdarling]

Do you disagree?

 

Do you work your dogs on stock? Or do agility?

[Sue R]

Herding is a trained behavior that serves human ends. That the dogs enjoy it is purely incidental to the farmer. And it is no less alien to a dog's evolutionary purpose than chasing a tennis ball or weaving through cones.

 

Do you disagree?

 

I disagree, absolutely!

 

"Herding" is not a trained behavior - natural instincts have been modified through selective breeding to maintain or develop those which are useful, and reduce or eliminate those which are not (the kill, for instance, isn't much help to the stockman). Training is then imposed on those instincts to guide and hone them so that they are effective and useful in the farm/ranch situation.

 

Chasing a moving object and bringing it back to the "pack" or "alpha" is also just another natural instinct that has been channelled by training.

 

Weaving through cones and other similar activities without apparent purpose are alien to a dog although many of the physical activites of dog sports (running, jumping, avoiding obstacles, and so on) are just extensions of natural movements.

 

What is alien to dog's nature? Stockwork is just modified prey drive and many dogs will exhibit some aspect or another of it (just think of packs of dogs that prey on wildlife and livestock) whether they are traditional "herding breeds" or not. Read Coppinger for a good discussion of the development of different types of dogs (working stockdogs, livestock guardian dogs, hunting dogs) and how they each have the basics of prey drive but with different aspects more strongly developed or largely eliminated or minimized by selective breeding.

 

Expose many dogs for the first time ever to livestock (or wildlife) and you will often see some form or degree of prey drive. Expose those same dogs for the first time ever to agility obstacles and I doubt you will see much of any response. Agility or other dog performance sports are trained activities, but a dog *must have instinct* along with training to be an effective stockdog.

[Root Beer]

I can't imagine what evoked such a hostile response. If you think agility is wonderful that is your opinion and it is every bit as valid as mine.

 

I think that answers your original question.

 

For those of us who play sports with Border Collies, it is our opinion that Border Collies suit us as pets and companions, and that they enjoy the activity as much as we do, so it's a win-win. Not every situation is perfect, but neither is every working situation for that matter.

 

That's why we have Border Collies and not dogs of other breeds.

 

Tone of post: Matter of fact and pleasant.

 

Edited: To convey tone in which I was speaking, lest the tone be mistaken for anything other than the pleasant, conversational tone in which I was thinking.

[BNM1980]

Do you work your dogs on stock? Or do agility?

 

 

I believe this is called side-stepping the question.

 

"Herding" is not a trained behavior - natural instincts have been modified through selective breeding to maintain or develop those which are useful, and reduce or eliminate those which are not (the kill, for instance, isn't much help to the stockman). Training is then imposed on those instincts to guide and hone them so that they are effective and useful in the farm/ranch situation.

 

Chasing a moving object and bringing it back to the "pack" or "alpha" is also just another natural instinct that has been channelled by training.

 

Weaving through cones and other similar activities without apparent purpose are alien to a dog although many of the physical activites of dog sports (running, jumping, avoiding obstacles, and so on) are just extensions of natural movements.

 

What is alien to dog's nature? Stockwork is just modified prey drive and many dogs will exhibit some aspect or another of it (just think of packs of dogs that prey on wildlife and livestock) whether they are traditional "herding breeds" or not. Read Coppinger for a good discussion of the development of different types of dogs (working stockdogs, livestock guardian dogs, hunting dogs) and how they each have the basics of prey drive but with different aspects more strongly developed or largely eliminated or minimized by selective breeding.

 

Expose many dogs for the first time ever to livestock (or wildlife) and you will often see some form or degree of prey drive. Expose those same dogs for the first time ever to agility obstacles and I doubt you will see much of any response. Agility or other dog performance sports are trained activities, but a dog *must have instinct* along with training to be an effective stockdog.

 

I said simply that dogs did not evolve to herd sheep for human farmers. That statement is completely incontrovertible, unless you know less about biology than a border collie.

 

My point is simply that TC's equation between "behavior that comes naturally" and "canine happiness" is very, very fuzzy. Fetching my slippers, watching television, jumping through hoops or herding sheep for a whistling farmer—none these activities are really "natural behaviors" for a dog.

[Pam Wolf]

I need a drink The snarkiness of this group never ceases to amaze me. Back to working dogs

[Sue R]

I believe this is called side-stepping the question.

No, it's not side-stepping the question. It is a question of its own, wondering if you have first-hand experience with dogs doing stockwork and/or with dogs doing performance sports (like agility, which you used in your post as an example).

 

I said simply that dogs did not evolve to herd sheep for human farmers. That statement is completely incontrovertible, unless you know less about biology than a border collie.

No one said that wild canids evolved to herd sheep for humans - what I said was that human selection developed, modified, or reduced natural instincts (in the process of domesticating dogs) to suit human needs for stockworking dogs, along with other useful dog "types". A nasty comment wasn't necessary on your part, but I've been known to succumb to the temptation to make one or more of my own.

 

Talking about avoiding the question, I don't see where you addressed any of my points but I expect that your knowledge and experience must be far superior to mine (especially since I must know less about biology than a Border Collie ).

 

My point is simply that TC's equation between "behavior that comes naturally" and "canine happiness" is very, very fuzzy.

I'm in total agreement with you here, although I didn't manage to pick up that being the point in your previous post (I guess I know less about reading comprehension than a Border Collie, too ).

 

Fetching my slippers, watching television, herding sheep by responding to a whistling farmer and jumping through hoops—none these activities are really "natural behaviors" for a dog.

Ah, but using natural instincts that have been selectively bred and modified over many years, combined with training, is what a working Border Collie does. The domestic dog is far removed from its "natural" ancestors, and yet retains a great deal of its ancestors' genetic codes, modified by selective breeding and developed by training.

[juliepoudrier]

I said simply that dogs did not evolve to herd sheep for human farmers.

 

Sure, border collies did not evolve independently as herding dogs. But we all know from high school biology that evolution occurs as a result of selection pressure, and in the case of border collies and other purpose-bred dogs, human-induced genetic selection pressure pushed those breeds in directions required by humans for specific functions. In the case of border collies, the human-induced selection pressure was toward dogs who would work livestock in conjunction with a human--that is, dogs who had a genetic propensity for both gathering livestock and working closely with a human to do so.

 

Fetching my slippers, watching television, jumping through hoops or herding sheep for a whistling farmer—none these activities are really "natural behaviors" for a dog.

I disagree. The whole point of creating purpose-bred breeds is so that the dogs will do certain things naturally (i.e., that they contain the genetic makeup that produces such behaviors), whether that be pointing birds, retrieving game, trailing a scent, going to ground for vermin, or working livestock. I had three border collies and a Berger de Picard (Picardy Shepherd) out here last night. Every single one of those dogs, for whom this was the first introduction to stock, circled the stock and fetched them to me, some with greater natural ability than others. The fact that all four dogs consistently gathered stock and fetched them to me without any prior training to do so implies it's a natural (genetic) behavior. I would argue that fetching your slippers is an unnatural behavior only because dogs out "in the wild" would never have a reason to fetch slippers (nothing in it for them) but might indeed have a reason to fetch other things (like bringing prey home to a litter, since doing so would give the dog a genetic survival advantage). Jumping through hoops, weaving poles, walking teeter totters, slamming feet on a flyball box to eject a ball, etc. are all unnatural behaviors because no real genetic coding exists to cause a dog to exhibit those behaviors--that is, *any* reasonably athletic dog (and some who are not) can be taught to do those things. Perhaps you could argue that any dog can be taught to work stock (some folks do argue this, especially on the aforementioned Herd-L), but the fact is that it will be much easier to teach the dog that already has the natural (genetic) ability in place.

 

And I have a degree in biology, so I think I probably do know more about biology than the average border collie, thankyouverymuch.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Here's something I try to keep in my mind while I'm reading info on the internet to gather an overview on a topic: you're more likely to read about the extremes than the norm in any given situation.

 

More specific to this thread: you'll read more about the problem with dogs (or problem dogs) than about the normal dogs.

 

This bias on the internet tends to give a slanted view of a topic.

 

Mark

[jdarling]

I believe this is called side-stepping the question.

 

Wow. How ridiculous. I was trying to figure out what type of experience you had with either so I knew where to begin trying to explain my position on it. I work livestock.

 

Yes, I completely disagree with your opinion on this subject.

 

Do you work livestock or do agility?

[Root Beer]

In the case of border collies, the human-induced selection pressure was toward dogs who would work livestock in conjunction with a human--that is, dogs who had a genetic propensity for both gathering livestock and working closely with a human to do so.

 

Bold added by me for emphasis!

 

It is my personal opinion that it is this trait that makes the Border Collie such an attractive sport companion. Yes, speed, athleticisim, intelligence, trainability - all important.

 

But the trait that I enjoy the most with my Border Collies is the natural tendency to want to work closely with the human.

 

To some extent, the task matters not. Even things that are "un-natural", once trained, bring my Border Collies HUGE satisfaction when they are doing these things with me. That's where sports tap into their genetic tendencies, I think.

 

Granted, there are aloof Border Collies and they aren't all the same. And there are individuals in the other breeds who are very driven to work with their humans. But by and large, I see a lot more "Let's Go!" attitude among Border Collies than I do in dogs of other breeds as a whole.

 

While there are definitely definite contrasts between Border Collies working on stock and Border Collies playing sports in many regards, this is one area where I see one aspect of sports tapping into one aspect of the stockdog picture. Again, personal opinon, but I see it very clearly.

[BustopherJones]

I guess I'm the only stupid one on this board, as I seem to be missing the point. Why does anyone have to justify why he/she owns a Border Collie? Isn't it enough to say that one loves the breed? There are those on this board who own multiple Border Collies, and have owned them for years. As one who only owns one Border Collie, and previously had other breeds, I have come to understand the fascination that these aficionados (and I say that with humble respect and admiration) have for the breed. Each of these breed lovers has his/her own reason for selecting Border Collies. And why not? The Border Collie is a multi-dimensional breed, equally adept in herding, sports, SAR, therapy, etc. This quote from the Dog Breed Info Center site highlights this: "One of the most trainable breeds, the Border Collie also serves well as a narcotics and bomb detection dog and is a frequent high performer in obedience, agility, Frisbee trials, police work, search & rescue, Flyball, performing tricks and competitive obedience. Some Border Collies have been trained very successfully as blind guide dogs. Currently very good results are obtained with them for general assistance to the handicapped in The Netherlands." (Sidebar: They have also been known to be used as sled dogs.) It is their intelligence and versatility that draws together such a diverse community with a single common interest. As for me, I have only one regret with respect to owning Annie: I wish I had known what a marvelous breed this is years ago, and gotten my first Border Collie when I was much younger. Not only would I have owned many more Border Collies by now, but I would have had the opporutnity to know and commune with a great group of people as represented on this board.

 

In a way, it's a shame. The original title of this thread was "Why did you choose a border collie?", which could have been a pleasant and entertaining string. But the OP immediately created a "straw man" argument that almost ensured that this would turn into an all-out battle. Would someone please remind me again as to the meaning of "trolling"?

[BNM1980]

Well, one quote-stack deserves another, I guess.

 

No, it's not side-stepping the question. It is a question of its own, wondering if you have first-hand experience with dogs doing stockwork and/or with dogs doing performance sports (like agility, which you used in your post as an example).

 

Are you saying that whether or not she agrees with my statement depends on whether I do agility? That's seems odd.

 

No one said that wild canids evolved to herd sheep for humans - what I said was that human selection developed, modified, or reduced natural instincts (in the process of domesticating dogs) to suit human needs for stockworking dogs, along with other useful dog "types".

 

Yes. But the fact is, few dogs are now involved in the activities they were breed for. Huskies seldom sled, pit bulls never bait bulls, and setters rarely set.

 

To argue that border collies that don't herd are necessarily dissatisfied animals is to argue that 90 per cent of dogs are necessarily dissatisfied. I think that is a ridiculous argument.

 

A nasty comment wasn't necessary on your part, but I've been known to succumb to the temptation to make one or more of my own.

 

Clearly, that comment was not directed at you but the hypothetical—and, I assumed, non-existent—person who would insist that dogs had evolved teleologically to serve human sheep farmers.

 

Talking about avoiding the question, I don't see where you addressed any of my points but I expect that your knowledge and experience must be far superior to mine (especially since I must know less about biology than a Border Collie ).

 

I do not claim knowledge and experience. I may have come across a little didactic, but like everyone else, I'm just offering my two cents.

 

I'm in total agreement with you here, although I didn't manage to pick up that being the point in your previous post (I guess I know less about reading comprehension than a Border Collie, too ).

 

You don't see the link between my denying that herding is more natural than other human-motivated and controlled canine activities and an implied refutation of Coyote's argument?

 

Perhaps you should read my pervious post again, or ask your border collie to help you.

 

(Okay, that was a joke!)

 

Ah, but using natural instincts that have been selectively bred and modified over many years, combined with training, is what a working Border Collie does. The domestic dog is far removed from its "natural" ancestors, and yet retains a great deal of its ancestors' genetic codes, modified by selective breeding and developed by training.

 

I accept that.

 

But I doubt that this, or any breeding program, can be so selective that border collies are physically and emotionally dependent on herding. After all, if the prey drive can be adapted one way, it can be adapted another. Which activity do border collies enjoy more? We need to get one on here to settle that question.

[BNM1980]

Wow. How ridiculous. I was trying to figure out what type of experience you had with either so I knew where to begin trying to explain my position on it. I work livestock.

 

Yes, I completely disagree with your opinion on this subject.

 

Do you work livestock or do agility?

 

Hi jdarling.

 

Thanks for answering the question. Just to reiterate (and correct me if I'm wrong) you believe that herding sheep is a more natural activity for a border collie and that dogs that herd are therefore happier and more satisfied than those that do not.

 

I do not work livestock or do agility. I simply dispute this argument on logical grounds.

 

I imagine you reason that herding is analogous to hunting, and more importantly that the skills involved have been breed into these dogs for generations. I do not deny that therefore working dogs are probably very satisfied. However, I think that for you to deny that border collies can be equally happy doing other jobs is to grossly exaggerate the precision of selective breeding.

[Dixie_Girl]

Jackson was trained to work sheep. That's all he had ever been around. Until we got the chickens. I never asked Jackson to bring them to me, but one day, not long after we got them, I was busy getting the chicken's feed and water and the next thing I know, there are the chickens and a "well, what do we do with them now?" look on Jackson's face as he held them. That's instinct. Getting them to me and holding them without scaring the crap out of them, that's training. If you take an agility dog and set up completely new and different things for them to do, I seriously doubt if they will just know what to do. But I can guarantee that any "stock" Jackson is around, he will do what he was bred to do.

 

That said, Skip is scared to death of sheep, ignored the chickens and prefers to hunt varmints in the tall grass. But his parents are open qualified dogs and most of his litter mates are working. (those that aren't were sent to pet homes) Is Skip happy? You bet! Is Jackson happy? Absolutely. Is Jackson happier when he gets to work sheep? Without a doubt. But their lives are their lives and they have more important things to do than sit around pining for what isn't happening right now. I mean, the ball is always there.

[Mark Billadeau]

I imagine you reason that herding is analogous to hunting, and more importantly that the skills involved have been breed into these dogs for generations. I do not deny that therefore working dogs are probably very satisfied. However, I think that for you to deny that border collies cannot be equally happy doing other jobs is to grossly exaggerate the precision of selective breeding.

While I believe that working bred dogs can be "happy" (a human term that may not apply in the same way to dogs) doing other things than working livestock; I also know that the behaviors (instincts) in herding are as strongly genetically encoded as coat color, coat length, eye color, etc. but are much more complex genetically. Based upon your line of argument I surmise that you underestimate the power of selective breeding in "programming" these behaviors in dogs. Well bred working pups will instinctually go to balance without any training.

 

I like to compare the instincts for herding to musical or artistic talents in humans (both are genetically encoded behaviors). Can a human who has a very strong musical or artistic talent be happy not satisfying the desire to express themselves? Will these people be happier when they express these talents?

 

Mark

[jdarling]

Just to reiterate (and correct me if I'm wrong) you believe that herding sheep is a more natural activity for a border collie

 

Agreed.

 

and that dogs that herd are therefore happier and more satisfied than those that do not.

 

My dogs that don't work livestock don't appear any happier than the ones that do. This is not a claim I was making, nor disputing.

 

I do not work livestock or do agility. I simply dispute this argument on logical grounds.

 

The word logical needs quotes around it when you say that considering you've got nothing to base your "logic" on.

 

Sue did a superb job at explaining what I was going to say, and you did an equally nice job of mystifying it, so I've decided I would rather stick needles in my eyeballs than try to take a stab at this.

[BNM1980]

Based upon your line of argument I surmise that you underestimate the power of selective breeding in "programming" these behaviors in dogs. Well bred working pups will instinctually go to balance without any training.

 

Mark

 

If you are right (and for all I know you are) that is truly incredible. But surely this same behavior is transferable to some other equally challenging activity? Is it reasonable to make an analogy to the human capacity for learning a language? And just as the cognitive and dental fundaments innate in humans lend themselves to any language, so the mental and physical traits of the border collie can lend themselves to a variety of other mentally challenging and physically demanding activities?

 

These are not rhetorical questions! I'm really asking!

[Pat W.]

Kristine I think you've said it all for we agility AND border collie affectionadios in the following quotes

 

On the other hand, there are many who got Border Collies for other reasons. They liked the breed, they had grown up with them, bought one on impulse, got one from a shelter, etc. And then they got into training and sports, etc. Most of us have Border Collies because we love them first and foremost and secondly, playing sports with them is extremely rewarding and enjoyable to both dog and handler.

 

Yes, a lot of us are into Agility much more than it just being exercise and people having a good time together. That's still a part of it and for some people that's all it is.

 

But there are many of us who have a true passion for the sport, just as there are people with true passion for football, hockey, etc. And having a very well loved dog as part of the whole package takes the whole endeavour to a new level.

 

++++++++++++

 

You know some of the things said about people that do agility upset me a little basically it boiled down to "Agility people are overly competitive fools that simply get border collies because they're fast, and care little about all else but winning"

 

Well I have to get this off my chest...I own border collies, I do agility, my daughter does agility, I've had border collies for 15 years, my first I got because while living in the UK I fell in love with the breed. I understand fully the need of the breed to work, I understand and advocate (after education and gentle nudging from Rebecca here on the list) the need for working lines, I also understand that not each and every border collie born from working lines has what it takes to work sheep, and what do we do with these dogs? I have been doing agility for 13 years obivously I got my border collie before I encountered agility. Ashe's passion wasn't sheep, he didnt give two hoots about them, his passion was his people, it was his greatest joy to be with them and anything they did even if included doing agility. Was he fast? Not really, did I care that I won? Maybe a little but thats human nature. Since Ashe I have become more interested in lines behind a dog, I'll never be an expert but I am more impressed by a dogs ability to work sheep than its ability to run an agility course at 6 yps - not that its not impressive to watch a dog and handler work a course with such precision and speed. I'd much rather have working lines than sportlines again thanks to gentle education. Here on the East Coast more and more agility people are turning back to the working lines vs the sport I am happy to say

[dracina]

I'm not really saying anything at all. I'm just playing with ideas.

 

I do not work livestock or do agility. I simply dispute this argument on logical grounds.

 

 

I hate when people start an argument with no real purpose, and continue to offer no real input.

 

I could be wrong, but as a few people in this thread have already implied: what is the point in arguing something for the sake of argument? In fact, TC doesn't even seem to remember what was the original question, or what were the subsequent questions, etc.

 

I think that neither the OP or BNM1980 (actually, some of the point made here are valuable, including the fact that the OP is making murky statements based upon correlation) speak from any level of experience.

 

It seems that TC started this thread with the intention of starting a non-productive argument.

 

Karrin

[BNM1980]

The word logical needs quotes around it when you say that considering you've got nothing to base your "logic" on.

 

I guess we have a different understanding of what logic means. To me it is a priori and does not imply inference from personal experience, but I'm not going to argue the point.

 

And anyway, since you say this,

 

My dogs that don't work livestock don't appear any happier than the ones that do. This is not a claim I was making, nor disputing.

 

we are not in disagreement.

 

I've decided I would rather stick needles in my eyeballs than try to take a stab at this.

 

It was never my intention to exasperate you.

Sorry!

[kajarrel]

Like others, I'm not so sure that working dogs are happier, but what I've noticed (in about 30 years of owning working and non-working border collies) is that a working relationship is more "natural" than other relationships with my dogs. What I mean by this is that when you work (stock) with your dog, things fall into place - they seem to understand their relationship to you (and the stock), and you to them, and this makes other things easier (i.e., the working relationship is the foundation of the bigger dog-owner relationship). My non-working border collies are great dogs; but training and owning them has been different because I can't/don't tap that built in "understanding" and motivator.

 

Kim

[Mark Billadeau]

If you are right (and for all I know you are) that is truly incredible. But surely this same behavior is transferable to some other equally challenging activity?

I've not heard of a Border Collie, without any training, do weave poles (a challenging activity). Unlike most other activities with these dogs, herding involves a 3rd species (person, dog & livestock). The instincts to "read" and control another living species have been selected for, these behaviors really don't translate well to inanimate objects. However, other aspects of the herding instincts do translated to activities with inanimate objects: ability to work independently, acceptance of working for someone (bidability), acute spatial awareness (knowing relative positions of things to themselves even when these objects are no longer in view), etc.

 

Mark

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

It just seems like there are a lot of people here having trouble with their dogs. Part of that may just be that border collies aren't always the most social dogs. A lot of them can be very shy and they really don't do very well if they have to be out in public (away from home and around a lot of strangers). Some of them can be pretty snarky. And obviously from people's comments there are some that do just fine in crowds and with strangers.

 

If what you want is a dog that goes everywhere with you and really mixes it up then there are other breeds that would probably be better.

 

Again, as a member of multiple forums for dogs with "issues" border collies tend to be at the bottom of the list. Generally the largest amount of dogs with issues are small breed dogs, usually rescued from puppy mills. From my experience anyway. In the classes that I've taken for "reactive" dogs, I've always been the only border collie owner and the majority of dogs with problems were random mixed breeds, pointers then labs. Most of the problems usually stem from the dog being a high energy active breed and exhibiting frustration in undesirable forms. This is a border collie forum and the vast majority of members are border collie owners, so if they have problems with their dogs, they will probably post the issue here first. Out of the handful of border collies that I actually know and see frequently, mine is the only one with any real "issues".

 

I've met tons of dogs that would rather not be "joe public", even retriever types, lots of dogs are snarky and the same poor breeding practices that cause a lot of these problems are carried across the board to every breed of dog. I don't think it's fair at all to say what you've said in regards to people having another breed of dog. I think we just need to do a better job of educating the general public about bad breeding practices and why a border collie puppy might be a bad idea for a family with 4 kids and full time jobs or a single guy who is a traveling salesman.

[Sue R]

Kristine - Thanks for your post. That was well put and helped me understand a bit more about why and how these dogs make such excellent partners in many endeavors.

 

Are you saying that whether or not she agrees with my statement depends on whether I do agility? That's seems odd.

Yes. But the fact is, few dogs are now involved in the activities they were breed for. Huskies seldom sled, pit bulls never bait bulls, and setters rarely set.

Absolutely "no" to your question here. I think jdarling and myself (along with anyone else who might be interested or involved) simply hope to better understand your point of view by understanding your experience and activities with your Border Collie.

 

To argue that border collies that don't herd are necessarily dissatisfied animals is to argue that 90 per cent of dogs are necessarily dissatisfied. I think that is a ridiculous argument.

Who said that? I have seen people mention how satisfying stockwork is to a dog that has it in him/herself (and there is nothing, and I mean nothing, that is more important to my dogs than stockwork), but never that a dog could not be happy or satisfied without stockwork - as long as it has a suitable, fulfilling home and partnership with its handler - which has been reiterated time and time again on these boards.

 

I do not claim knowledge and experience. I may have come across a little didactic, but like everyone else, I'm just offering my two cents.

If you have neither knowledge or experience, then what you have is opinion based on a limited foundation. We are all entitled to our opinions but need to recognize them as such if they are not founded on fact and/or experience. And, also understanding that opinions are subject to change as we learn and progress.

 

You don't see the link between my denying that herding is more natural than other human-motivated and controlled canine activities and an implied refutation of Coyote's argument?

 

Perhaps you should read my pervious post again, or ask your border collie to help you.

 

(Okay, that was a joke!)

I accept that.

Nope, I don't see the link. I guess I haven't been willing to work at it hard enough.

 

As others have mentioned, TC's choice of title for this topic and subsequent posting, don't seem to connect very well. And, since "herding" is based on instincts that are bred into the dogs from prey drive and are therefore an extension or modification of natural behaviors, it is certainly much more "natural" than performance sports. JMO, for what little it's worth. And I didn't ask any of my dogs to help me with this - Celt's on crate rest and can't sit in the computer chair, Dan is too young to be allowed on the internet, and Megan isn't interested.

 

But I doubt that this, or any breeding program, can be so selective that border collies are physically and emotionally dependent on herding. After all, if the prey drive can be adapted one way, it can be adapted another. Which activity do border collies enjoy more? We need to get one on here to settle that question.

Think not? There are dogs that are bred that would probably be quite miserable without the opportunity to utilize their instinctive "gifts" that have been bred into them, without a very understanding and capable handler/trainer. There are top Border Collie breeder/trainers who know more in their little toe than the rest of us combined will ever know, who feel the saddest fate for the good working-bred dog is to never work stock. Do they know more than I do? Yes, infinitely. Do they know more than you do? Only you can answer that but I could hazard a guess.

 

So, are you saying that you could adapt prey drive to agility or other performance sports? Little elements of prey drive may be there in terms of "racing" or pursuing a moving object and so forth. But what a waste it would be to form a breeding program using Border Collies to produce nothing but sports dogs - wait, we've been down that path in many prior topics.

 

My dogs aren't world-beaters in any sense but, for the ones that have been shown stockwork and the possibilities that lie therein, there isn't a toy or a treat or an obstacle that would hold a candle to working. Your results may vary, depending on you and your dog.

[BNM1980]

Okay. I take your point, Sue. A border collie is right in his element working stock.

 

So I guess that means the rest of us just have to work extra hard to keep our BC pets happy. And if we do work extra hard, as I think you seem to agree, we can also have content dogs.